Can't speak German, so couldn't get the post, but can anyone say what library was used in the piece? It's nice enough, but what amazes me is that anyone is really surprised at what can be achieved with skill and a decent sampler. I've been hearing things like this since the days of the Emulator I and that's a LONG time ago...

Once you go 'open', it ought to be made plain whether something made on an instrument is the base library, or third party sounds, as anyone looking to the demo for an indicator of what they might be able to do if they bought one should be aware of this, and the potential cost of adding the extra libraries. Some of them can run to thousands of dollars...

Hi Diki
I have checked with Helmut, and just the standard Groove X7 was used with no other software or sounds. (You can see his reply (In English) if you go back to the thread)
Regards

Bill

The amount of sounds you get out of the box is enough to keep anyone busy for a very long time.

Cheers
James

Nah James, you're wrong, that ain't enough for Diki...he needs more cuz he used everything already.

I'd sure like to hear the Emulator 1 demo you heard that sounded anything like what Helmut demonstrated using factory sounds that come standard with Lionstracs keyboards. I've had every incarnation of Emulator since the E2 and I've yet to hear a E1 sound like that.

Lionstracs users have been saying for some time that the factory sound library that comes with the instruments are quite good as witnessed by Hemlhuts demo. There are no less than 4 GB worth of sounds shipped with the Lionstracs so chances are there's enough sound OOTB to satisfy most users right out of the gate. It is not required to buy additional sound libraries but if you feel the need to do so, at least its an option.

Possibly there's enough content for many people, but let's face it James... even YOUR demos have used third party sounds, not just your own but converted Akai disks, etc..

Anyway, what's the POINT of an open keyboard if you only use the included sounds...? That's what a closed keyboard does, and you are all constantly pointing out how limited THOSE are

Thing is, most closed WS's, and a high percentage of TOTL arrangers include a sampler (at least playback sampler), with often up to half a gig or RAM or more. Things aren't QUITE as 'closed' as you make out!

I have to admit, off the top of my head, I can't remember a specific Emulator I demo to point you to, but I remember well some Emulator II stuff that sounded VERY good (and let's not forget that quite a few Hollywood scores used them extensively) and that's STILL a long time ago... Yes, an open keyboard allows you to do these things with much greater ease, and have much larger libraries at your fingertips, and they DO represent a big leap forward. But the music being made on them has MUCH in common with stuff from a LONG time ago. After all, we are emulating orchestras, and those have been around for hundreds of years!

Once again, before you all start piling on me willy-nilly, I am NOT 'putting down' the open WS. It's a great piece of gear, and if I had a need for one, I'd get one in a flash. This isn't demo-ing any arranger mode, so my comments have nothing to do with that. But, when listening to something 'open', it helps to know WHAT is being used, as many choices (at a wide range of prices) as they have. And that's all I was commenting about re. the MS.

As James showed a while back, ANY sampler, with a good library, can make excellent music, and has been doing it for a long time. Perhaps some of our members haven't really kept up with this end of things, and all I was trying to point out was simply that. The demo was good, no doubt about it. But not exactly groundbreaking, in the long run...

Me, I'd like to hear it running Live, and Omnisphere/Stylus RMX/Trillium in interactive mode... THAT would be pretty interesting, IMO!

Maybe James is trying to show all possibilities of the keyboard..

Maybe it would be wise for you to stop discussing lionstracs Diki, because arguments like this don't add anything at al

Correct, but not for the reasons your thinking.

I use third party sounds is because I already own a very large collection of award winning libraries that I've purchased over many years of working with AKAI Samplers.

It's totally logical. Why would I use Lionstracs very good uilleann pipe sound for example when I can call up my �award winning� uilleann pipe sound from the World Winds library by Dirk Campbell.

I do the same with my OASYS and every other keyboard I've ever owned since I've started using AKAI Samplers and building up my library of sounds. If I buy an award winning library that has better sounds than any other keyboard I own, it only logical that I'm going to use those sounds over anything else.

You can't argue with that



Yes, but I had to go to great lengths to do what I did back then as my S5000 maxed out with RAM still only stands at 256MB and there is a considerable loading time to even get that data to memory.

Now on the other hand with my Mediastation I can load GB of data in seconds. Imagine what I will do with that considering what I used to be able to do with just a Triton Studio and an AKAI Sampler.

Regards
James

+1
I'm all for debating any subject but Diki, there is no discussion going on between you and other people on this subject at all. I'd say it's like Shoot first and ask questions later only you don't even do that. It's more like shoot first and then stick your head in the sand. You just say your piece and you stick to that regardless of the reply you get. I really don't get this attitude at all.

You are on your own at this point too as everyone else is open minded, listening, asking questions and watching what's going on.

It's only with a very good exchange of information and a real debate that people can make the right decisions and understand everything. So why don't you actually ask a question first before shooting. I'm not your enemy and I'm not out to prove you wrong on anything.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 05-19-2010).]

+1 for James and bachus

anyway..another Lionstracs point is opened.. http://lionstracs-hannover.de/

( another 3 are in list and come soon..)

I have sent 2 emails to Liontracs support via the website and have not received a reply yet... I give up.

never get your email...maybe is my spamserver filter.
normally under the website contact have to work...try again..

James,

I just fell off the fence laughing, landed on my head and it hurts more now than it did before! James were can I get a MS Groove X7 from, are you going to be MS dealer/importer. I could come over on the ferry.

Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-19-2010).]

Domenic...I have sent another to you now.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-19-2010).]

Sorry Tony. Everyone has strict orders not to sell you one........Kidding, of course, BUT the price will be triple that of normal (to cover the extra tech support). In any case, no one knows when the next one will be available, so maybe you should start a countdown. Probably worth the wait, though. It's sure to blow your socks off.....well, the NEXT OS upgrade will, anyway. Did I miss anything?

Chuckie

PS: Just pulling your chain, Tony. We have to have SOMEone to pick on, and we're all scared of Diki (well, except Bachus ).

Chuckie,

You did miss one thing but even I would not even dare to go there, but you just about covered it all, in one no less. I am as hell scared of Diki even if you all are, except Bachus and James he won't take any crap! Chuckie, what I will say is you have either a hell of a good memory or I have made a lasting impression on you!

The latter is what I wanted to do!

Cheers

Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-19-2010).]

Hi Tony.



Me ?
I don't even know what I'll be doing next week let alone plan for something like that right now.



Your welcome here any time. A day return on the ferry ranges between 120 to 150 pounds though. If you have a GPS, I can give you coordinates that will get you right to my front door.

umm.. after careful yet muted reflection..
+1 Diki..

It's pretty obvious LIONSTRACS would say that.. BTW if you went into any Music store in the UK and asked them if they had a MS RED SEXY GROOVE X7 they would say " they stopped making long playing records years back young man". Who's fault is that, there is no dealer or importer in the UK for MS, how can I get one to start complaining about it, I have the money waiting.

Yes Tony, but my therapist says that in time, I may recover. At least, partially.

.....one thousand eight, one thousand seven.....

chas

Ye Gods! I can't even PRAISE open keyboards and you all pile on me...!

I wonder sometimes if you guys even bother READING my posts... as long as it has my name at the start, the same crap gets boilerplated out.

Some of you fail to understand that this is an ARRANGER forum. As such, there are a LOT of pretty nontechnical players here, a lot of amateurs, and a lot of players that haven't really kept up with technology. Now, you guys are obviously forward thinkers, on the cutting edge, yada yada yada , but you have to understand that not everybody is like you. I've always been upfront with how much and how long I've been using computers and VSTi's (and you have always done your best to ignore it) but at least I'm aware that many haven't done this. And I try to write from their perspective, just to balance the wild enthusiasm for this new type of keyboard.

None of you has had, let's just say a trouble-free experience with it, and that is with prodigious technical skills. I simply wish that some of you could perhaps post with this fact in mind. It is altogether too easy to simply forget that much of what you take for granted is absolute Greek to most arranger players. All I ever try to do is inject this into your threads, lest anyone be fooled into thinking that using one of these things approaches the ease and simplicity of an arranger... after all, that's where we are ALL coming from, on this forum.

There have been forums for years about samplers, sampling, orchestral virtual production etc., but I doubt but a handful of our members here go there. Offering a balanced and objective opinion and demos about open keyboards would be a great service to our membership, but so often I find myself having to add these details to otherwise incomplete posts, doing little but evangelize the open concept.

I've been doing orchestral production using a combination of VSTi's, samplers (usually my Kurzweil reading Akai disks) and closed keyboards for well over fifteen years. If you think that I am in no position to comment about open keyboards, you are sadly mistaken.

If you don't want ME to put in the caveats and reality checks to your posts, PUT THEM IN YOURSELVES.

Yes I do Diki, with some fascination, I am draw in like a moth to the light bulb or a fly to a jam pot!

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-19-2010).]

chas

Oh Boy it's EGO TIME AGAIN !!

and another good post takes a hijacked ride south!

Translated means what Diki ???

Chas put a funny in will you, I have never kept up with technology.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-19-2010).]

It's the JOURNEY that counts .

chas

A dog kennel is no place to keep your sausage...

nothing...
May I know your email that I can edit my spam filter?

Hi Diki.



Quite the opposite actually. It's you who are not listening and it's you and you alone. Everyone else has been following the progress and taking on board everything that has been explained and demonstrated as well as asking questions. Which has been great, people are getting to hear what they want now and they are been given the information to make up their own mind.

You on the other hand are trying to force feed everyone your opinion and get them to only agree with what you believe things are. This is wrong. People should be allowed to make up their own mind based on the free flow of information.




lol... I call that the God Complex.

This is just another example of you trying to dictate the way things are and not allowing people to make up their own mind. Diki, your not the voice or the savour of the arranger community bringing the �Real� truth to the people. People can make up their own minds on weather a keyboard like this is for them are not. They are not children or idiots that need you to save them from the evils of Open Technology.

It's simple.... People are listening (except you) to what is being presented to them and they are getting to hear and see how the keyboard operates. From this flow of information which is the truth and totally uncensored, people can then make up their own minds if it's the keyboard for them or not.

Even if they are not interested in buying one it does not matter. The mere fact that they can walk away with a good understanding of what the keyboards have to offer is all anyone can ask here. This is the entire point behind Discussion Forums / Online Communities. We can tell it how it really is and we certainly don't have to lick Lionstracs rear end and say only nice things. So nobody needs to hear your version of the truth Diki. They can already get the real truth from people who actually own the keyboards.

BTW.... If you have been using VSTi's as long as you say, can you please upload something. I don't think I've actually heard any of your music to be honest.



That's a classic �Diki shoots first and stick his head in the sand move� that I'm on about.

Why don't you follow through now with the rest of the story and tell everyone how fast Domencio was to address every single issue people found ?

While your at it why don't you also go on to say that with all that, he still had time to intergrade an new Media Player into the OS and also provide me with enough information so I could write an entire computer progarm from scratch that allowed everyone to manage Giga Libraries.

Domencio even changed how Linux sampler reads it's own file format to improve not only how my program would work with his systems, but how the entire filing system works and it's dependence on txt files.

Your very sneaky Diki with posts. You go on about telling the truth and keeping things real when in fact your just being extremely sneaky and spreading only part of the story that suites your needs.



See....
You assume how things are here and you appoint yourself as spokesman for everyone as if it's your job to keep things real and bring people the full story when in fact you do nothing but twist the truth and only tell the part of the story that serves your needs.



Good for you.
Lets hear them then.

I'm also not saying that you are in no position to talk about VSTi's and Samples. I am saying that at you are totally and utterly twisting the truth by focusing on only the negative parts and never telling the full story.



I actually feel pity for you at this point. Seriously.

Regards
James

Domenic did you recieve my email I sent yesterday this time via your support contact page?

two more qranger audio style demo from http://tastenpoint.at:
http://tastenpoint.at/downloads/demo/sunny1.mp3

http://tastenpoint.at/downloads/demo/gospel.mp3

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-20-2010).]

As I said, James... if you guys were as willing to point out the caveats and gotchas of open keyboards as you are to emphasize its' good points, I wouldn't be posting at all. You criticize me for focusing only on the negative, but don't accept that exact same criticism for only focusing on the positive. Talk about a head in the sand!

There has to be SOME balance to all this... You don't see this forum simply accepting ANYONE'S unbridled enthusiasm for any arranger whatsoever without some counter opinion, reality checks and good old fashioned plain open criticism. I don't see you leaping to the defense of someone who might be as one sided in his admiration for a specific closed arranger. But you want that for the MS...

Well, sorry, old chum, but it ain't gonna happen!

Just as Yamaha people can point out problems with Ketron's, Roland's or Korg's (and vice versa), those of us with closed arrangers can point out potential pitfalls with open arrangers, and open keyboards in general. The story is NOWHERE near as one-sided as most of the pro-open posters make out...

Let's simply take your example of Dom's willingness to change the OS to suit you. Where was Dom's willingness to change things when it has been pointed out the shortcomings of his own arranger software? Where are the On Bass chords after six YEARS of development..? Dom conveniently abrogates HIS responsibility by discontinuing any further support for a TRULY integrated arranger solution in favor of third party players that don't integrate well with the keyboard (not as well as closed ones do, at least!). There are several BIG disadvantages of the style player software's over conventional closed arrangers on an operational level (going from one style to another without stopping, for instance). Where was Dom's legendary responsiveness then? He actually WROTE his own style player (it is still included to play MS styles) and never finished it...

You see, by only posting the good and none of the bad, you force SOMEBODY to post about the other side of the coin. In lieu of someone else, guess that's me... If that's a God complex, you have a very low opinion of a deity

I just call it 'keeping it real'...

Diki is RIGHT, and the rest of the world is WRONG.

Come on Diki, as I have said (And others are now reiterating) you are NOT the centre of the universe, so stop pretending you are.

As to demos, as you always keep saying �Put up or Shut up� so post something to prove your point, (Not a manufacture demo or smothered in vocals) or follow your own advice.
All the Best

Bill

i think the kind of close working community that the MS owners are developing is truly admirable and the contribution that i see coming from AFG ,Miden and Irish Acts is fantastic. Dom seems to be very responsive to the requests for changes to the OS of the MS and seems to be now listening to the needs of his customers when in the past that was not so apparent. What is painfully obvious is that Dom needs help. Someone like James to give expertise from a users point of view rather than as a programmer although its clear he has those skills two. But there has to be some caution excercised here. what concerns me is that whilst the cooeration amongst the MS community is quite good , it relies purely on good will and the amount of spare time users have to test and in some cases de bug and adapt software and apply their own programming skills to help the manufacturer produce a product that is fit for its purpose.Whilst this is a benefit to those potential MS users that dont have the high level programming skills, what happens when James buiness ventures pic up again and he is too busy to assist ?

How then can a user explain the problems they may encounter to Dom if they dont understand the high level of programming knowledge demontstrated so far that has led to the advances the MS has made even in the last 4 months ?

I for one dont have a problem with the objections being made or the caveats being made by diki(although his style of debating might ruffle some feathers) or anyone because at the end of the day i am a musician that likes to make music . The keyboard is the medium for making music but it often can easily become the obstacle to making music.

Hi Spalding
You make some good points, and the only thing I can say, is that Helmut at Tastenpoint, (A dealer that has to sell products to make a profit to stay in business) has been aware of Lionstracs for some time now, however only with the release of the Groove, does he now consider it a product for the general public and has thus become a dealer. (Remember any problems are the dealer�s responsibility, and you don�t sell something that is going to turn round and bite you in the backside)
Therefore if a dealer is prepared to sell the product the same as he sells, Roland, Orla etc. products, then he must have confidence in it being able to do what it says on the Tin. (After all he has fully tested it)

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 05-20-2010).]

Domenic did you receive my email I sent again yesterday this time via your support contact page? could it be getting bounced into your spam folder/....is there another email I could sent to?

This is exactly what mediastation needs most.. People that beleive in the system and start developing for it. People like James and Helmut.

Linux is a community thing, based on a lot of people that help build it just because that is what they love to do. And exactly this is what i hope to see in the future of lionstracs. James with his free LSCP GEN i hopefully just a beginning. PEople creating stuff and sharing it is a noble thing in this world and exactly this is what should make mediastation instruments rise above all others.

Dom listens to the community ever since i met him overehere and kept listening and improving. And now finally the reslut of his effords is there. An instrument that many can appreciate and from now should only get better and better.

Tough everyone should realise that a continuing development process like this is allways two steps forward one step back and part of the success will be dependent on how quick Dom can repair the "Step backwards"

My wife keeps wondering why I'm always sitting at the computer, laughing. It's the ease in which Diki can whip you guys up into a frenzy with the simplest of posts . You have to ask the question, who's in control of this situation. Think about it. Here's a thought. Read his posts carefully (there's usually a good deal of well-thought-out logic plus some good information in there) and respond only to the parts that you disagree with (and stick to just why you disagree with them). James usually does this although it's sometimes also 'flavored' with a few personal quips. Keep it strictly content-relevant and forget about the messenger. If you ummm, 'adjust' to his writing style , and find that what he says is actually on point (even if it rubs you the wrong way), then either acknowledge it or don't respond. Diki is tough, so attacking him or getting into a war of words, is going to be pretty much a waste of time (except for providing a huge amount of fun and entertainment for me and Tony Hughes ).

Also, Spalding has a good point in that a pro musician who depends on his 'ax' to make a living, may not be as enamoured of the 'community' approach to R&D, beta testing, support software, etc. It's a nice concept but having to rely on that approach as a development path could be problematic. JMO.

chas

If the cap fits......

You have no-one to blame but yourself for this reaction to anything you post. Especially in regard to the MS/Groove.

Yep, already done that, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...You probably didn't read the posts though.....

Hi Chas
Do a search and have a good read of my posts of the years before you make generalisations.
Regards

Bill

Miden,

If you want to go and look at Diki in his cap there is a photo on FACEBOOK, beware you may be offended. If he hasn't removed it . the photo I mean not the cap, just type in Diki Ross.

You are right on the money Chas, it's a pity he takes it too far sometimes and you could get close to thumping is fat head if you lived near to him , apparently no one lives near to him, wonder why. When I look in the mirror in a morning I see Diki in me, I still work for a living and wonder why people put up with me, if Diki worked with me we would move heaven and earth and no one would get in our way, we would get things done in nano seconds and we would not take the crap that people deal it out every day. It�s just a thought, if Diki could just think that he can hurt peoples feeling especially those who are trying to help others and those who like Diki are trying to cause nothing by mayhem, it�s is fun like you say but Diki is like a spitfire pilot, watch the films, even when the German plane in on fire in a spiral dive in front of him he would still have the button pressed down wasting ammo. Move on to the next Folker Diki don't get tunnel vision. Hell I hope he doesn�t start again after this. dagger, dagger, dagger dagger!

Regards Chas


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-20-2010).]

received nothing from you...strange.
May I know your email that I contact you and I can edit my spam filter?
Or forward your contact to someone that contact me every days ( like AFG, Dennis, James, Richard...) and then I contact you again.

Hey Donny, happy to help out as Dom suggested, if you need it

Glad to see you are thinking of adding the MS to your arsenal

Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 05-20-2010).]

Hey, you missed Diki out !!!

who's Diki??
This one?




for sure is on my Spam filter too..

Hell I didn't think it could get any worse, bottom bottom left I would guess, this should not be allowed, I will put this on the fireplace keep the Grand Children away from the fire. This is almost criminal , dagger dagger dagger.

[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-20-2010).]

I don't see where personal attacks fit in anywhere on this thread/forum.

Bah! Disgusting!

Diki used this sign many times here on forum. no miracle, see comparison of his photo with that sign which demonstrates his behavior,


lol



[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 05-21-2010).]

And this, boys and girls, is what passes for reasoned discussion on this forum...

Way I see the numbers, it isn't me against the world. It is the TINY, tiny minority of open keyboard users against the world. No-one buys into this boondoggle, especially here. Your post about Tastenpoint only JUST admitting that the Groove is finally a viable commercial product is somehow jumped on as a positive point, rather than an admission that, despite the EXACT same fanboy behavior being exhibited for the last five or more years (by some of the exact same people), it WASN'T.

Choice of keyboard, especially for professionals, isn't a matter of BELIEF. It a matter of FACT. It isn't religion, it is WORK.

When you pick something to work with, there are a few factors to consider... how much does it cost, how does it sound, how well does it work, how much time will it take to prep it for a gig (anybody gigging with their MS yet? Anyone...? Using it as an arranger? ), what kind of dealer support and warranty and repair support will you get, how robust and roadworthy it is. It isn't about picking a 'concept' and going with that, whether it is practical or not...

I might be one of the few posting about these issues, but don't let that fool you. The fact that open arrangers have the tiniest of tiny sales numbers (even the �ber-expensive Audya is outselling the MS by a vast margin) simply shows that, when push comes to shove, MOST potential purchasers take these factors into consideration and walk away...

It isn't me against the world. It is YOU... And you are the ones that are saying you are right and everyone else is wrong! Not me I am merely articulating WHY most people are eschewing them.

Diki
AS I said to Chas, go back and read my posts over the years, before you start generalising on whose playing at being the centre of the universe. (Also don�t forget to look in the mirror)

Bill

Question

Why has this thread gone to 2 pages, when the original post was a link to the Lionstracs forum for those that may have been interested, rather than a dedicated General Arranger keyboard post?

The post was designed so that if you weren�t interested, you could ignore it with having to read through all the thread to find something that might interest you. (An idea which could also be applied to the other SZ dedicated forums)

It was a link to some MUSIC... one of the rarest occurrences in the MS world. As such, it deserved some comment, especially as I have been asking for this for YEARS..!

Where it went after that is in large degree due to how thin-skinned the open community is. Somehow, they think it is their right to criticize and denigrate closed arrangers and their users, but somehow feel discriminated against when the same thing is done to THEM.

All I have ever done is post about potential caveats and pitfalls of using these things. I have never needed to sling personal attacks at those that use them, I don't post pictures of THEM online and guffaw, I stick relentlessly about the issues solely. And this is what passes for counter argument...

Real mature...

I guess when you can't come up with anything sensible to say, you just stick your tongue out and go 'Nya nya nya nya nya'....

Oh, and Bill... go back and read this thread in its' entirety. Look at who brought up being at the center of the universe first...

I find it VERY telling that all I have to do is criticize the keyboard. I don't find it necessary to criticize any person. They aren't the issue. Curiously, though, my antagonists on this issue seem to think that I am fair game rather than the issues themselves. I guess, when you don't actually HAVE an answer to the issues, best response is to attack the poster...

Diki

1. The universe quote did not start in this thread; I have mentioned it many times before in reply to your constant comments implying that because a keyboard (Closed or Open) doesn�t do what �You� want, others should not consider it, or there must be something wrong with it.

2. I have always answered factually on any queries or points you have made, (Although it is noticeable that you have ignored many that didn�t fit your point of view) so don�t try and twist the facts, to try and make it look like users are ganging up on you, just accept the fact that not everyone in the world wants the same as you.

Regards

Bill

Bill, you are unfortunately lumped in with many that DON'T respond the way you do. I don't see you chiding the open fans the way you do me, yet their ignoring of valid points is almost total... Sauce for the goose...

In fairness, Bill, you don't even HAVE an MS, and many of its' shortcomings don't affect the Wersi's, who have integrated style player and VSTi to a greater degree than Lionstracs. Primarily, my remarks have pretty much all been addressed at the MS and it's fans, who still have this habit of completely ignoring or deriding ANY comment bringing a degree of reality back into their rose tinted view.

To this date, for instance, no-one has YET really addressed the scale of the workload needed to make a gig-ready product from the barebones that the MS starts from. You don't have that issue, Wersi having spent quite a lot of money to make sure that Yamaha Mega-voice styles DO work well, without needing tedious translation and editing.

But look, no-one is telling anyone in the open community to NOT post about it. But apparently, some of them (perhaps not you, but you can see the posts of those that do) feel that it is not my right (and I guess, by extension, anyone else trying to make the same points) to keep bringing these points up... And, I'm afraid, I am NOT going to be silenced until someone actually steps up to the plate and PROVES what they say. Until then, I just feel that every position needs a counter position to balance it.

Until it is illustrated with example, rather than rhetoric.

Seems the fact about the Wersi that you love is that it is less open, more closed. And so it could take less time to set up at the cost of a lot of the freedom of a true open system. which is an okay opinion.


Lionstracs takes (maybe)more time to setup, but i really doubt it. Seems to me like for people with a keen eye on Information technology the menus in the Lionstracs are more naturally then the menu structure in the wersi. And on top of that :
- WErsi can only load 5 VSt's
- You can't run any 3rd party apps on the wersi like Ableton live or Cubase
- A Wersi is atleast 2 times as expensive as a mediastation

And many many more disadvantages expleined all over the forum...


But Wersi is still a great instrument, and probably the best sounding organs on the planet. I allways tought it a sad thing that Wersi is currently not producing any organs anymore but only the "wing" which is a very much dumbed down OAS system.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 05-23-2010).]

And how many Yamaha Mega voice styles do you actually use?

I can tell you it takes about 20 minutes to get a reasonable result from a Roland style.

Ketron Styles play perfectly from the get go.

Takes about 3 minutes for each VST to set up.

A dozen or so combis (my main choice of "weapon" for a gig) about 30 minutes.

And of course once these are setup there is no more work needed.

Other than to load a resource, record teh snapshot to a performance bank and thats about it.

You seem to be a wealth of misinformation. Wersi can play more than 5 VST's at once but I can't imagine why you would want to do that. You don't have to use Wersi's built in VST host for loading instruments, that's just one way of going about it. The better VST's seriously tax the CPU and you wouldn't be able to run 5 or more without serious issues on any open ended system or computer. Running multiple VST's is not for the faint of heart and rest assured you will run into trouble by doing so be it on an open ended keyboard or a PC computer.

Cubase was the standard sequencer software and VST host for many years on the Wersi but that changed in OAS 7. You can still use Cubase if you want, you simply have to load it onto the drive and run it like you would on any other PC. As long as the VST is PC compatible and your system has enough CPU power, you can run the VST.

Wersi a.k.a Music Store is currently working with another company to market the entire OAS line although it appears Music Store will be marketing the Pegasus Wing at this time. As far as I am aware all OAS systems and software will still be produced and upgraded. I have no reason to believe otherwise until Music Store says so.

Deppends what you define Multiple as...5 or 75? Yes, i said 75...i've been up the 60 number on
a PC...smooth...sometimes do it on a daily basis. When you look at 15-16 tracks, 2-3 inserts each,
some Sends, some Masters...it adds up. Trust me, YOU WONT RUN INTO PROBLEMS!
Of course on a True working PC, not a 1999 4MB RAM computer.

You talking VST's or VSTi's, Nedim..? I've never seen anything capable of running 75 VSTi's, yet...

Roland don't HAVE a Mega-voice technology, Dennis... to be honest, were I to want to use an open arranger, being able to at LEAST match the technology of closed arrangers would be a must... Hence, Mega voice guitars, which are, to be blunt, pretty close to state of the art for MIDI based arrangers, would be a very high priority.

I have to agree with DIKI. I've never seen 75 VST's or VSTi's run at once nor have I met anyone willing to attempt such a futile feat. Omnisphere alone would heavily tax most any system. I'd love to see you run Omnisphere, East West Symphonic Gold, The Grand, Kontakt, GIGA, PT HD3, UA Audio Compressors, and a few high end FX and Mastering plug ins all at once without a problem. Load a YouTube video of you running all these and more at once without a glitch, I'd like to see it.

Every VSTi is also a VST
VST's are either a VSTi or a VSTfx or a combination of both.

There are some VSTfx that take more resources then most VSTi's so i really think its very much important which VST�s he is running and how he is using them.


Also keep in mind that you can not compare Nedim's hardware to the hardware contained in most Wersi Instruments. Many of the better DAT's have two or more quadcore processors and 32 gigs or more of RAM. And with the right networking solution you can even build a cluster of multiple of these computers ballancing the load.

So i guess where ensnare you could be using 5 top VST'is (WErsi does not support VSTfx to my knowledge) which are pretty hard on the Wersi hardware (this is why older versions of Wersi OAS7 only allowed 5 VSTi's max, don't know about the current software version, but i do know there where some tricks available to load more then 5 VSTis at a time)only use a small part of NEDIM's DAW.

Try not to compare apples with carrots.

I guess the GRoove X7 hardware currently would be somewhere in the middle between most Wersi hardware and the top of the line DAW hardware.

Diki, VST's or VSTi's makes no difference, it is the same thing, exact same thing, one is an
effect and one is an instrument...and please, if you really know something about it dont tell
me there is a difference since THERE IS NOT!!! Dont tell me one uses more CPU then the
other becuse you know ITS NOT TRUE...as in my case i have Reverb Plugs which use 3
times more power then Albino Blue which falls into the hungriest. Having 10 or 50 VST's
makes no difference if they are FX or Instruments, all of them use CPU, some more some
less and yes Diki, i can probably open even 75, never tried but i usually open 16 instances
of Kontakt/Collossus/Goliath and then other Instruments too and also each of them few
Inserts plus some Sends and Masters...e tc...come on, you know it ca be done.
System configurations???:
MacPro G5, Two by 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 16 GB RAM.
I used to open almost the same things with Dual 2.7GHZ PPC G5 with only 4GB RAM.

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 05-24-2010).]

My 2 cents....

I release v1.0 of LSCP Gen on the 19th of this month and by the 24th I had v1.12 out and it supporting VSTi's as well as many other features.

Point being... when you direct your attention to things worth while all sorts of new doors open. So my advice is don't get bogged down talking with Diki and do something else. You won't get your point across to him, so why even try. As the saying goes, don't feed the troll.

Regards
James

A totally unnecessary post. I don't think that kind of advice is needed or wanted on SZ. In this case, Diki hadn't even addressed you, so why disparage him? You know what they say, if you don't have anything nice to say about someone, then just button it.

chas

I have to agree with Chas...totally unnecessary, and very rude, as well, James...even for you. Tsk tsk!

Ian

Why unnecesarry??? With Diki almost everything in here now has to be preemptive. Lets be real,
he didnt say nothing yet but lets wait and see, i've become preemptive with him too.
This way his comments at least lose validity to some people on here.

Calling somebody a "troll" is rude and, in this case, unnecessary.

Ian

Well we will all have to agree to disagree then.

Diki has be deliberately antagonistic, derogatory, agressive and confrontationalist, in pretty much every post he makes about open hardware, software and Lionstracs products in particular.

Even when he DOES pose some sort of legitimate question, he cannot stop himself from adding barbs, sarcastic comments, or just plain insults. Especially if the answer is at odds with his view of the world.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...well you know the rest....

If you read ALL previous posts and threads re this whole issue, you will find that Diki has mostly instigated the hostility.

James has finally had enough, after giving Diki many chances to simple adopt an open mind and view things in an objective manner, instead of trying to impose his will and opinions (mostly incorrect) on all the rest of us.

I even tried offering a small olive branch a week or so ago, but he bit that hand as well.

The man simply cannot control his ego, and his need to try and dominate EVERY conversation that he dips his oar into.

And further, again, if you READ the threads, you will find that James has gone out of his way many times in the past to accommodate questions and issues Diki has raised.

Domenico has done the same, but over a MUCH longer period.

Diki has said many times he does give a rats about anyones respect or opinions, and it seems only his own warped and mis-informed views on pretty much anything are all that he believes in.

And I suspect if he SAYS he respects someones' opinion or views, there would always be some ulterior motive for trying to forge alliances in any debate.

I used to read all of his posts with interest, and respect as it did seem he knew a great deal, after all he certainly DOES "talk the talk", but after the malicious rhetoric, and vilification of pretty much all MS users, amongst many others (not just MS users, but other people as well) I don't usually bother anymore.

And I don't care if he does not care

Bottom line is you guys should not really criticise James, Domenico, Nedim et al for finally getting fed up with all the rubbish writes. There is finite point in everyones' patience and I think theirs has finally run out.

He would probably do alright on Survivor.

Ian, the problem with Diki is that he will simply try to tell you that YOUR wife is not
YOUR wife...in this case i am still waiting for his: YOU CANT OPEN THAT MANY
VST'S and his BLAH BLAH BLAH of arguments and proofs...based on his B.S.
Even though i do that every single day for making a living, opening tonz of VST's.
I dont think anyone in here knows whats his problem, most of us have head it and
i am still holding back and trying to be civilised, he insulted EVERYBODY in here
at least once if not more...I post something about cars he talks about airplanes,
i posted something about women he talks about homosexuals and so on...
I am posting an MP3 so someone can hear some sounds he comes up with the
idea of I DONT PLAY GOOD (i know i do...been doing it and making a living out
of it for years) and not just few simple chords and 3 notes solo's...his Eyes will start
rolling if he sees me REAL soloing but thats besides the point. Instead of finding
an argument about the Sounds he tells me i dont know how to play. I will still hold
back and be civilized but i will always be preemtive on him, i will always comment
before he does cuz its obvious, we all know ahead of time what he is gonna say
and i am just waiting for his response now about the VST's...if you want and if he
want i can type it right now, exactly as he will...so we dont waste time.

I used to read all of his posts with interest, and respect as it did seem he knew a great deal, after all he certainly DOES "talk the talk", but after the malicious rhetoric, and vilification of pretty much all MS users, amongst many others (not just MS users, but other people as well) I don't usually bother anymore.[/B][/QUOTE]

I did the same, i had respect for him at the begining and he knew a lot untill i figured it all out,
a while back on an Ethnic forum this guy jumped for a while and he had all the answers and
hey, we were all amazed. It took us time to realize that he knew only ONE thing and nothing
else that he claimed: All he knew was to click HOME on the browser, then type WIKIPEDIA
and then the Topic we were talking on...This synth? Ok, here are the specs bum bum bum...
And thats all he did, used Wikipedia for everything and we thought he had all the answers.
There is no need for Diki to answer me something, i own more Synths then he has ever
owned Cars, Synths and Women together and i am not saying this to show off its just if he
ever engages with me i will challenge him on a topic on any synth and machine...of course,
not using WIKI but thru Videos...This WIKI ruined the world. Now even my little 4 years old
nephew already is telling me which computer is better for Audio...and yes, he can read.

Hi Ian & chas.

Come on guys, enough is enough. He is a troll and he is the direct cause of a lot of disharmony in this community. Ok... and I'm going to get EVERYTHING off my chest here.

The guy demonstrates a complete lack of respect on a daily basis here at this stage. We are getting nowhere whatsoever in trying to address him. He does not care what anyone says. I've lost count at this stage as to how many times I've tried to discuss all this with Diki. It's always the same, he says something and I use the Quote tags to reply with respect, he then ignores everything I said and almost never uses the quote tags at all to address me back or any points I do bring to the table. This is the complete lack of respect he shows for me all the time on this forum. This is what a troll does though.

Trolling... you have what I said above and you have him turning up at every Lionstracs related thread saying the same things over and over. The discussions never ever goes anywhere with him. He just generally disagrees with everything everyone says on the subject and ignores the replies he gets from people. Now we have him saying he's the voice of truth and has appointed himself the roll of bringing the truth the to community ( his words). Never to back down while while we talk of subjects like this. Seriously... come on ..!!! He's a freaking Troll of the highest order.

All he does is turns up at every thread like this saying the exact same negative things over and over again with no consideration for anything said back to him. That's what trolls do, they are people who are totally unresponsive to any reasoning or open discussion. It's clear at this stage that nobody is going to get any good from him as his motives are clearly locked down being as disruptive as possible to the progress of these threads. It's not from a lack of trying to get through to him either. I dare anyone say I haven't shown him much time or respect, or been unbelievably patient with him. I've given Diki more time on this forum than I've given anyone else, even kept my mouth shut every time he disrespects me by not taking anything I say in any regard at all. NO more....!!! I have enough if his rotten attitude.

How many times has he been banned for his attitude and disagreements with other? This is the same thing all over again. He's just playing a more cleaver game now trying to do the same things he has always done, but just watching his choice of words so to stay under the radar. He knows better than anyone how your choice of words can get you banned but play it quite and you can get away with murder.

Look.... I'm by far the last guy you will ever see posting one of those fair well posts but I tell you this truthfully. I find it very hard to come here every day to offer what I can to the community and I've considered a few times just not coming here at all because of him. I don't want to give in though because I like everyone here and your all a great bunch of guys. Plus I have a lot to offer everyone and this is always been something I've done all my life. Last thing I want is to feel hate in coming here because of some troll.

However.... I DO NOT want to be around someone so negative. People like that bring me down and there's more to life than listen to some miserable guy moaning and repeating himself.

Regards
James

James,

I know Diki better than you think I do, after spending a lot of time (sometimes too much time) on the forum.

I believe Diki has this perception that many people seem to live their lives projecting delusive enthusiasm, which he believes is used to imply that "they are better than others."

This conflicts with his style, which is very droll and dry.

In an ideal world, he would like to always make you (and I) chill out and be realistic...maybe he might be well meaning, but it is very annoying to some.

Then on the other hand, he thinks that anyone who tries to inhibit his exuberance about something, is all wrong, and really doesn't see the perceived values that he beholds.

Chris Kristofferson's words, "He's a walking contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction" seems to sum up the above quite well.

But, I don't think Diki is a Troll...maybe he gets close, but as you say, he stays under the radar, and Nigel seems satisfied so far.

Anyway, keep up the good work...I know I've questioned you guys, but my interest has always been genuine...and, I suppose I'm impatient to see results, as the claims about instruments without proof, have been going on for some time.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 05-24-2010).]

Hi Ian.



Yeah very true, but I've been on SynthZone for almost 10 years and while most of that time was me just reading a lot, I still feel I know many of you very well from following your conversations over the years. Your a great bunch of guys actually. There's a lot of very good hearted people here and I enjoy talking to you all. It's just that things are getting out of hand with Diki now, and I've had enough of him.



Ok, but that's starting to sound like paranoia on his behalf.

I'm not a liar who projects any delusive enthusiasm and as a Mediastation owner I can also tell you that none of the other guys are liars either. Everything they are saying is true and I can verify the same findings as them.

There's no I'm better than You in any of my posts either. I have nothing to prove to anyone. All I want is to just enjoy music, life and help anyone out when I can. That's why I own KORG Forums and am writing Lionstracs software right now. I don't care who you are, if I can help you I will and I expect nothing in return.

So if Diki thinks all that that then he's either calling me a liar or he is paranoid.



Sure and rightly so that's exactly the way things should be but he's the one being difficult and being extremely negativite. Nobody likes a person like that as they will always get you down. All anyone wants here is an open dialogue, have some fun and maybe pick up some juicy information on a product many know very little about.

Everything we all do here is supposed to be helpful, interesting, enjoying and fun. This is why we all spend out free time hanging out here. We enjoy the banter and we all learn something.

What Diki is doing is just bad karma most of the time.



There's a level of blindness in that though that's sad. We all have something to learn from each other no matter who we are and great enjoyment can be gotten from opening your mind to it.



I understand but are we then saying we should just excuse his behavior or make acceptation just because it's Diki and that's the way he is ?

I think it's fair to say that he's been given an unbelievable amount of freedom so far.



I assure you it's not a word I throw around very lightly or say often at all. I above all understand the seriousness of this word and when I do use it a really do think before I type. Diki is behaving exactly like a Troll and it's not nice. He make it very hard to enjoy the community because of his constant negativity and repetitive posting of of the same closed minded views in these threads.

You only need read his posts to see he's not even asking any actual questions to find out more about the keyboards too. He doesn't care, yet he feels the need to still take part in these threads and run the keyboard into the ground for no real reasons.



Sure, it's all just about hanging out, sharing information and enjoying the company.

Kind Regards
James

First, let me make it clear. I am only speaking for myself. I, for one, am not ready to throw Diki under the bus. Is he perfect? No, but who here on SZ is? Is he sometimes a little harsh with his writing style? Yes, but it's usually when he makes a valid point that the loyal opposition chooses to ignore. Does he do the exact same thing himself? Yep, sometimes. Does he appear to be a little harder on some products than others? It appears that way, but in all fairness, it seems to crop up more when exuberant claims are made for a product that are not always substantiated. I think that he sees his role to be to keep everybody honest. It may be that he may be a little over zealous in that role, but I think he is sincere in his motives.

Here's my problem. There are a couple of guys on this forum who are a bit more tech savvy than the general membership. These people generally garner more respect than the average member and the rest of us generally defer to their opinions, declarations, pronouncements, whatever. The problem occurs when these very strong personalities differ on an issue. Then camps are formed, insults are hurled, ancestry is questioned, and chaos abounds. In other words, a normal day at Synthzone.

The other problem is the 'benevolent dictator' syndrome. Sometimes these elite people will bestow upon us gifts, usually in a very public way, in the way of personal consultations, supplementary software, and 'not to be challenged' buying advice. This gives them a certain power that other elites may either envy or resent. This doesn't mean that everyone that lends a helping hand has some ulterior motive. On the contrary, most just enjoy helping someone that they consider part of 'the community' and are also proud that they have the knowledge to be able to help.

I have heard Diki on more than one occasion praise the MS/Groove for it's workstation capabilities. He readily acknowledges it's potential as a potent and powerful studio tool. Where he goes off track, IMO, is his (stubborn?) insistence on comparing it's ARRANGER features to TOTL dedicated arrangers. Until the MS/Groove has styles SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN FOR IT using a sound set designed FOR THOSE STYLES, it will probably NEVER sound as good as a dedicated arranger OOTB. If everyone could just wrap their heads around THAT, I think most of the animosity would cease.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

chas

You guys won�t get Diki taken off air, the explanation of he operates under the radar rather than off is good, this should explain everything about how he operates. I work at a UK University and to get the sack would entail me (BTB) buggering the Bursar, that�s the very least. I can do what I like, when I like to anyone, but BTB and I am dead. BTW if I do BTB I automatically get my photo on FACEBOOK and a little write up. Now, if any of you don�t understand what this means I will explain, just ask!
Tony


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-24-2010).]

It doesn't matter WHAT arranger you are espousing... if you make claims for it that exceed what is the current state of the art, you had better back up your words with example.

And I am sorry, guys, but probably 90% of whatever has been said about the MS AS AN ARRANGER has never been backed up with any example whatsoever, or when it IS, those examples are so laughable as to beggar belief. As Chas points out, I have never disparaged the MS as a VSTi player, WS, groovebox or espresso machine

But it seems all to obvious, after YEARS of the exact same thing being said by its' fans, that no-one is using it as an arranger in a working capacity (gigging, that is) or those that are have much lower standards than the rest of us...

I have always felt that something is mighty fishy with an instrument SO prone to being used as a battering ram of 'superiority' by its' fans, when there's an almost total lack of music posted to SHOW it actually being used. And what has been posted is completely lacking in that 'superiority', at least as far as its' use AS AN ARRANGER.

Everyone completely ignored this point before, but having been accused of being a troll, let me once again point out that, on an ARRANGER FORUM, evangelizing something that is NOT an arranger is the REAL trolling going on here. But if it IS a real arranger, where is the music..? Every other arranger, every last one of them, has had music posted performed on them. Some are good, some are maybe not so, but on the whole, taking the player out of the equation, all of the closed arrangers manage at the least a balance of sounds, a coherence of sound that so far seems to have eluded the open arrangers.

That, in my book, completely refutes everything that has been said about the MS as an arranger... and until I DO hear it working at the level that open fans say it OUGHT to be able, I will continue to be the voice of reality on this issue the open community so wants stifled.

I'm sorry, James, but you are almost the ONLY person on this thread that edits their responses to make multiple quotes. I have made many a response to your points, but have noticed that some of my most salient ones are STILL being ignored. Half the time a point is responded to, it is sidestepped and waffled around. Nedim's particularly good at this. I'm sorry guys, but huff and puff all you want, sputter with indignation all you want that I'm not willing to simply take your word, preferring example, you simply have made NO real headway explaining and illustrating how practical these things are to a working musician wanting an ARRANGER. You know, the sort of thing that arranger players MIGHT need...

It's all well and good to say that you COULD take a simple audio guitar loop, and convert it to make an entire style's worth of guitar parts. But without firstly, telling us how long it takes to do, and then posting something actually DONE that way, what's the POINT?

How long does it take to convert translated styles to something that unquestioningly betters a closed arranger? Someone with hundreds of favorite styles is REALLY going to need that information. Along with a decent explanation of how high your level of expertise to run, troubleshoot and operate the MS needs to be. And these are the very points that time after time after time are completely ignored by the open community, or downplayed to a ridiculous degree. If you guys are so concerned about the history of our discussion about this issue (unlike you, I have no animosity against those that disagree with me - I don't feel the need to insult you, merely keep up the questions until I DO get an answer), use the search feature and try to find ONE post where those pretty fundamental questions have ever been answered... and illustrated.

I don't come here, crow about the unquestioned superiority of the G70. As an arranger, it has its' shortcomings. It is heavy. It won't play MP3's, has no sampler, won't play SMF's and styles at the same time, did I mention it's heavy? But if I WERE to come here and make the claim that it is light years ahead of all other arrangers, the rest are obsolete, it is the 'future' of arrangers, I would EXPECT everyone to question these claims. I would EXPECT everyone to argue quite strongly against such a claim. And I would expect, after YEARS of refusing to post any music that actually DID prove my claims, that no-one would take my opinion seriously, and treat me as a joke.

Curiously, the open community expects everybody to actually support the exact same wild claims, and want to treat those that DO want to hold them accountable as the joke...

You know, the DAYS (even weeks or months, nay, years ) of time spent posting about how good the MS is could have been much more profitably spent preparing musical examples that would demonstrate its' superiority. But sadly, writing and attacking those with legitimate questions is about the best these guys can come up with. Something STINKS about this. If I can refute someone's point about a G70 with one short musical example, or post desperately antagonistic excuse after excuse to distract that I CAN'T back up my opinion, guess which one would actually put the issue to rest...

James put the Karma issue to bed with ONE video. You see anyone with the same reservations after that? No, you don't. But we are STILL waiting for the rhetoric about the MS's superiority as an arranger to be demonstrated. We are STILL waiting for an honest assessment about how long it takes to prep one of these for a demanding arranger user. We are STILL waiting, quite honestly, to hear the MS used as an arranger where it even EQUALS a good closed arranger like the T3 or PA2Xpro or Audya.

And what is the open community's response to this? Video or MP3 after MP3 of example showing us how great it sounds? No... attack the person that keeps asking these questions, and keeps getting the runaround. That is a bankrupt attitude, and smacks of desperation.

When the G70 first came out, there were several posts that criticized its' OOTB sound. I could have posted for YEARS how much I disagree with that, how much anyone saying that MUST not 'get it', how they ought to get a G70 for themselves and 'then' they would appreciate it, and how much anyone that even THOUGHT that must be an idiot, and not even worth my reading their posts...

But I didn't. I made a recording of me hitting a random style, using the OTS and recording what it DID sound like OOTB. Why do you think I did that, rather than just argue to the death..? Yep, that's right. Because I actually BELIEVED what I said.

I don't see that from the open community. When it comes time for show and tell, the 'show' doesn't go on. Just the 'tell'... If you want to criticize someone ELSE for being disruptive, perhaps a willingness to actually back up your words if you are going to bandy about terms like 'superior', 'the future' and 'all other arrangers are obsolete'. Or how does it sound spouting this rubbish without a shred of evidence sounds.

James, coming to an arranger forum when you don't even USE the MS as an arranger, while you have your own forum, and doing nothing but spam the forum about WS related topics is the REAL trolling going on here.