First, let me make it clear. I am only speaking for myself. I, for one, am not ready to throw Diki under the bus. Is he perfect? No, but who here on SZ is? Is he sometimes a little harsh with his writing style? Yes, but it's usually when he makes a valid point that the loyal opposition chooses to ignore. Does he do the exact same thing himself? Yep, sometimes. Does he appear to be a little harder on some products than others? It appears that way, but in all fairness, it seems to crop up more when exuberant claims are made for a product that are not always substantiated. I think that he sees his role to be to keep everybody honest. It may be that he may be a little over zealous in that role, but I think he is sincere in his motives.

Here's my problem. There are a couple of guys on this forum who are a bit more tech savvy than the general membership. These people generally garner more respect than the average member and the rest of us generally defer to their opinions, declarations, pronouncements, whatever. The problem occurs when these very strong personalities differ on an issue. Then camps are formed, insults are hurled, ancestry is questioned, and chaos abounds. In other words, a normal day at Synthzone.

The other problem is the 'benevolent dictator' syndrome. Sometimes these elite people will bestow upon us gifts, usually in a very public way, in the way of personal consultations, supplementary software, and 'not to be challenged' buying advice. This gives them a certain power that other elites may either envy or resent. This doesn't mean that everyone that lends a helping hand has some ulterior motive. On the contrary, most just enjoy helping someone that they consider part of 'the community' and are also proud that they have the knowledge to be able to help.

I have heard Diki on more than one occasion praise the MS/Groove for it's workstation capabilities. He readily acknowledges it's potential as a potent and powerful studio tool. Where he goes off track, IMO, is his (stubborn?) insistence on comparing it's ARRANGER features to TOTL dedicated arrangers. Until the MS/Groove has styles SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN FOR IT using a sound set designed FOR THOSE STYLES, it will probably NEVER sound as good as a dedicated arranger OOTB. If everyone could just wrap their heads around THAT, I think most of the animosity would cease.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

chas

You guys won’t get Diki taken off air, the explanation of he operates under the radar rather than off is good, this should explain everything about how he operates. I work at a UK University and to get the sack would entail me (BTB) buggering the Bursar, that’s the very least. I can do what I like, when I like to anyone, but BTB and I am dead. BTW if I do BTB I automatically get my photo on FACEBOOK and a little write up. Now, if any of you don’t understand what this means I will explain, just ask!
Tony


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 05-24-2010).]

It doesn't matter WHAT arranger you are espousing... if you make claims for it that exceed what is the current state of the art, you had better back up your words with example.

And I am sorry, guys, but probably 90% of whatever has been said about the MS AS AN ARRANGER has never been backed up with any example whatsoever, or when it IS, those examples are so laughable as to beggar belief. As Chas points out, I have never disparaged the MS as a VSTi player, WS, groovebox or espresso machine

But it seems all to obvious, after YEARS of the exact same thing being said by its' fans, that no-one is using it as an arranger in a working capacity (gigging, that is) or those that are have much lower standards than the rest of us...

I have always felt that something is mighty fishy with an instrument SO prone to being used as a battering ram of 'superiority' by its' fans, when there's an almost total lack of music posted to SHOW it actually being used. And what has been posted is completely lacking in that 'superiority', at least as far as its' use AS AN ARRANGER.

Everyone completely ignored this point before, but having been accused of being a troll, let me once again point out that, on an ARRANGER FORUM, evangelizing something that is NOT an arranger is the REAL trolling going on here. But if it IS a real arranger, where is the music..? Every other arranger, every last one of them, has had music posted performed on them. Some are good, some are maybe not so, but on the whole, taking the player out of the equation, all of the closed arrangers manage at the least a balance of sounds, a coherence of sound that so far seems to have eluded the open arrangers.

That, in my book, completely refutes everything that has been said about the MS as an arranger... and until I DO hear it working at the level that open fans say it OUGHT to be able, I will continue to be the voice of reality on this issue the open community so wants stifled.

I'm sorry, James, but you are almost the ONLY person on this thread that edits their responses to make multiple quotes. I have made many a response to your points, but have noticed that some of my most salient ones are STILL being ignored. Half the time a point is responded to, it is sidestepped and waffled around. Nedim's particularly good at this. I'm sorry guys, but huff and puff all you want, sputter with indignation all you want that I'm not willing to simply take your word, preferring example, you simply have made NO real headway explaining and illustrating how practical these things are to a working musician wanting an ARRANGER. You know, the sort of thing that arranger players MIGHT need...

It's all well and good to say that you COULD take a simple audio guitar loop, and convert it to make an entire style's worth of guitar parts. But without firstly, telling us how long it takes to do, and then posting something actually DONE that way, what's the POINT?

How long does it take to convert translated styles to something that unquestioningly betters a closed arranger? Someone with hundreds of favorite styles is REALLY going to need that information. Along with a decent explanation of how high your level of expertise to run, troubleshoot and operate the MS needs to be. And these are the very points that time after time after time are completely ignored by the open community, or downplayed to a ridiculous degree. If you guys are so concerned about the history of our discussion about this issue (unlike you, I have no animosity against those that disagree with me - I don't feel the need to insult you, merely keep up the questions until I DO get an answer), use the search feature and try to find ONE post where those pretty fundamental questions have ever been answered... and illustrated.

I don't come here, crow about the unquestioned superiority of the G70. As an arranger, it has its' shortcomings. It is heavy. It won't play MP3's, has no sampler, won't play SMF's and styles at the same time, did I mention it's heavy? But if I WERE to come here and make the claim that it is light years ahead of all other arrangers, the rest are obsolete, it is the 'future' of arrangers, I would EXPECT everyone to question these claims. I would EXPECT everyone to argue quite strongly against such a claim. And I would expect, after YEARS of refusing to post any music that actually DID prove my claims, that no-one would take my opinion seriously, and treat me as a joke.

Curiously, the open community expects everybody to actually support the exact same wild claims, and want to treat those that DO want to hold them accountable as the joke...

You know, the DAYS (even weeks or months, nay, years ) of time spent posting about how good the MS is could have been much more profitably spent preparing musical examples that would demonstrate its' superiority. But sadly, writing and attacking those with legitimate questions is about the best these guys can come up with. Something STINKS about this. If I can refute someone's point about a G70 with one short musical example, or post desperately antagonistic excuse after excuse to distract that I CAN'T back up my opinion, guess which one would actually put the issue to rest...

James put the Karma issue to bed with ONE video. You see anyone with the same reservations after that? No, you don't. But we are STILL waiting for the rhetoric about the MS's superiority as an arranger to be demonstrated. We are STILL waiting for an honest assessment about how long it takes to prep one of these for a demanding arranger user. We are STILL waiting, quite honestly, to hear the MS used as an arranger where it even EQUALS a good closed arranger like the T3 or PA2Xpro or Audya.

And what is the open community's response to this? Video or MP3 after MP3 of example showing us how great it sounds? No... attack the person that keeps asking these questions, and keeps getting the runaround. That is a bankrupt attitude, and smacks of desperation.

When the G70 first came out, there were several posts that criticized its' OOTB sound. I could have posted for YEARS how much I disagree with that, how much anyone saying that MUST not 'get it', how they ought to get a G70 for themselves and 'then' they would appreciate it, and how much anyone that even THOUGHT that must be an idiot, and not even worth my reading their posts...

But I didn't. I made a recording of me hitting a random style, using the OTS and recording what it DID sound like OOTB. Why do you think I did that, rather than just argue to the death..? Yep, that's right. Because I actually BELIEVED what I said.

I don't see that from the open community. When it comes time for show and tell, the 'show' doesn't go on. Just the 'tell'... If you want to criticize someone ELSE for being disruptive, perhaps a willingness to actually back up your words if you are going to bandy about terms like 'superior', 'the future' and 'all other arrangers are obsolete'. Or how does it sound spouting this rubbish without a shred of evidence sounds.

James, coming to an arranger forum when you don't even USE the MS as an arranger, while you have your own forum, and doing nothing but spam the forum about WS related topics is the REAL trolling going on here.