Yes that's happened ... FortunatelY not often . . .
The best thing to do is learn the chord changes in the orig and transposed keys ... Sinatra used a lot of subtle transpositions and so does Buble ... Can't give an example of Buble right now * but I believe there is one tune where he goes from Bb to D very nicely ...
* I am writing this on my BB phone while sitting on a balcony overlooking the beach and Atlantic Ocean in Ocean City MD enjoying a cigar and a vodka ... Here for a week long golf trip with 12 other guys
To paraphrase the song - Life is good, God is great, people are crazy

t.

Thanks for this thread Bill.

Nice to have some serious music discussed for a change.

Get a bit fed up of the instrument banter instead of the REAL stuff of music
cheers

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Eddie from Rotherham http://www.music2myears.plus.com

[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 05-25-2010).]

There are just infinite ways of doing it. But certain things work better for certain kinds of music. I mean, if we're talking pop music or country music, half step or full step mods are appropriate and expected. For jazz stuff though the sky is the limit. Just listen to a few of the old pop and bigband arrangements from the 40's, especially those with vocals. The vocal chorus is almost never in the key of the instrumental, and you can find some really neat ways of worming your way around from key to key by studying those.

Some examples, let's say you sing a song in C, for ease of thought. But, for instrumental ride you modulate. Where to? Any key is possible. Everybody knows how to do a whole step or half step mod up. so let's examine choices apart from those.

C to Eb. Well, you can go C, to Fmin, to Bb7, into Eb, just following the circle of fourths. Or, try a walkdown. split bar C to B7 to full bar of Bb7, into Eb.

C to E, just a walkdown from C to B7 to E.

C to F should be pretty easy to come up with, as the keys are in the circle of fourths.

C to F#, C to C#7 halfstep mod into F#.

C to Ab, Half step mod from C to C#, treat that as the 4 chord of Ab, then Eb7 to Ab. Or follow the circle, split bars C to F7 to Bb7maj or min, to Eb7 to Ab. So on and so forth.

There's almost always a musical way to get from one chord to another. If you can't find a chord progression you like, look for melody lines that make sense and suddenly the chords will sound a lot better. Pulling off a successful mod often has as much to do with the right hand melody line choices during the transition. For instance, if you're trying to get from C to A, and you don't want to go down a half step to Bmin to E7 to A, but just going from C to A sounds dumb, then tri to find a melody line in the right hand that makes it work, maybe focusing around an E note during the transition, because E is a shared note in both C major and A major triad. The 3rd of C and the fifth of A, so putting emphasis on that common tone will draw the ear to that and away from the slightly awkward chord pattern.
Or, another way to get from C to A would be C to E to A for chords. And to make it sound smooth and flowing you can play a G in the right hand over the C, a G# over the E7 or E maj, and an A over the new key center. So suddenly your jumps from C to E to A sounds like a nice chromatic line because of what you did in the right hand.

Hope that helps folks think about key changes in new ways.

Also, a few songs were written with modulations (can't name any, top of my head, brain freeze ), but look in your fake book and check the changes, they're usually the best examples of how it's done. Also, occasionally a song will go back to the (modulate DOWNward) original key. You'll need to handle that as well. Other interesting changes; going from major to minor IN THE SAME KEY (as opposed to the relative minor) and vise versa. So many cool things in music that can make a performance sound amateurish or professional. Good topic, Bill. Want even more fun? Go to your keyboard and try out some of the suggestions and approaches provided by Bill, John, Rory, and others. See what seems to work for you on a specific song.

chas

Transposing –

Can you imagine listen to Mack Knife being played/sung without transposing, it would be a bore. The song starts in a low singing range and as it modulates to the higher keys more excitement is added to the band and the singer ends in his strongest key range.

I am, open or correction on this one.

Quote, “C to Eb. Well, you can go C, to Fmin, to Bb7, into Eb, just following the circle of fourths”.

F to Bb is a forth, and Bb to Eb is a fourth but since we are traveling to the I chord Eb then we should not be speaking in terms of distance. F to Bb is a fourth.

Key Eb Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm D half dim. Eb
I IIm IIIm IV V VI VII half dim. VIII

So Bb in the key which we are traveling to, Eb is now called V to I.
The reason I used these terms is because we are talking about a sequence in chords of a selected key. Hence, although we are, in distance, a 4th away Bb should be referred to as the V chord.

There are many who use the cycle of 4ths and 5ths, it’s a good toll but I find it conflicting when talking about chord progressions. When I am teaching or talking about chord progressions the terminology I use will all be connected to the subject I am teaching.

Hey, this does not mean anyone is wrong, it’s just my way of trying to help people understand. I have students that have become confused trying to use the cycle of 4ths and 5ths and the steps of the scale. The books use V going to I. (Scale terms)

IMHO, John C.

Through the responses, a few guys have used these symbols:

"I II III IV V VI VII VIII"


Those correspond to the 8 tones of a major scale, right?

There's also another system of symbols that use (+), (-), (^) and so on...

Can someone review that. I don't see it often but when I do come upon it it always trips me up for a bit.



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Bill in Dayton

Yes, the Roman numerals correspond to the scale degree. Upper case are major, lower case minor. I think "+" augmented, a degree sign is dimished. Flat and shap signs are used too. A bII in the key of C would be a Db major chord.

I hope that helps.

I've always wondered about the Nashville numbers system. Anyone care to explain?

Two songs come to mind:"Beyond the Sea" and "At Last" ... Both songs have the same chord progression but change the key for the 'bridge' and/or 'release' ...
t.

What we use to name the notes are
A B C D E F G

Has anyone heard of a H chord, I ran across the H chord in some German music, I had no idea.

John C.

There are various articles on the German H chord. This one might amuse (or confuse )
http://www.guitarsite.com/newsletters/010122/12.shtml

Johnw