I was floored by the fellas on Bill in Dayton's post MODULATIONS talking about how they used the transposer quite often in those situations. I didn't think others would admit that so readily.

Being mainly a sax/vocalist and coming late to the keyboard,(now 10 years)and self-taught, I never developed the facility to comp in any key but C, .. even tho my right hand could handle most keys, my left hand can't. Pure laziness I guess but aside from arguments about how different hand positions will inspire different musical paths, the fact that the "crutch" of the transposer exists and I can play in any key because of it enables me to thumb my nose at those who turn up their nose at me..and think it's not right for me to get work doing that--that's it's not the music i make but the method that's the test.

I really don't care..i have made my choice to put in the time in developing other things rather than to spend time learning the left hand positions in several keys.
Not when the technology exists to serve me.

I know there are better pianists out there than me, for a lot more valid reasons than my use of the transposer..BUT..

What gets to me is this.. when these other pianists sit in and a singer wants a key other than the 2 or 3 they're comfortable with in that tune, they decline. so they are NOT really proficient in all keys..and when I suggest they use the transposer..they refuse and say this to me:

"It would drive me nuts to have my hands
play notes that will sound different from the notes that I'm used to hearing there"

So many have said that, they can't all be Full of S.., can they? And if they are not,
why is it that I have no problem at all using the transposer, and am not "thrown off" no matter what key the tune is in?

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Miami Mo

Mo, I have heard many times from folks that claim playing keys transpose via the keyboard in relationship to what they hear..is very tough....one thing in common with these folks that I am talking about...they all have perfect pitch..I believe this is a fact...

I read music and enjoy playing pieces in keys other than C, but it is my preferred key, nevertheless.

Sometimes I'll be reading a tune that's written in, let's say, D, but it doesn't quite hit the sweet spot for my sax sound, or perhaps a trumpet or acoustic guitar.

That's when I'll use the transposer to move up or down till it sounds right to me.

I don't have any trouble hearing one key and playing in another...guitar players use capos with no issues, so I really can't see why it should be any different for keyboard players.

I suppose those with perfect pitch, might have an issue...I don't have perfect pitch, but I do have a pretty good sense of relative pitch...I can hear chords, and identify them quite easily.

I love having the transposer...I could play without it, but it's too handy not to use.

Ian

Fran, it seemed logical to me that if someone has perfect pitch, it could be a reason that they are thrown by the transposer. (not sure tho, as I definitely do not have it--in fact I score very poorly on pitch tests..even tho i play my horns in tune and sing fairly much in tune(was hard work getting there however!)

However, it's hard for me to accept that ALL the guys who give me grief re the transposer could have perfect pitch..if they do what a waste, they should be singers or violinists!

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Miami Mo

I use the transpose occasionally as a tool, not a crutch. For instance, if I'm doing something orchestral and I need a harp flourish in B, I use the F# pentatonic and transpose it to B. In other words, all black keys; that way I can just slide along the black keys like a harpist would strum across the strings, rather than try to play a B pentatonic scale that fast, which would be impossible for even Art Tatum.

Also, it does sometimes come in handy to go either 1 semitone above or below, but I can't go further than that, and even that I only have done very infrequently.

Regarding capos, it's a totally different animal. For one thing, guitars don't have white and black keys, so G sharp as a bar chord doesn't feel any different than A as a bar chord. Not so with piano. Of course, what makes the difference is the open strings, which is an excellent reason to use a capo. I'm trying to get voicings that require open strings, but in a key that doesn't permit open strings, so I put a capo on and suddenly I have my open strings in that key. But that's mostly for country and bluegrass and folk type stuff. If I'm doing a bluegrass song in Bb I need my acoustic guitar to sound like he's playing all the open G licks. I can play jazz tunes in Bb all day long without a capo, but you can't rip convincing bluegrass licks there without a capo.
So I use a capo as a tool, not a crutch; just like transpose.

As a sax player mo, would you be thrilled if your sax had a transpose button? Would you have as much respect for (insert your favorite horn player) if you knew he only played in C? Since you're not a piano player, you do what you have to do to sound good; but it shouldn't be that hard to understand why actual pianists might have a gripe. There's something to be said for the authenticity of style and variation that happens when an instrument is played in the actual key; and if you don't care about that, then you don't, but some of us do. You're going to do some things playing in C that wouldn't be done in Ab; and that bugs some people. If you were listening to 1:00 jump (in Eb for tenor), and suddenly a tenor sax started taking a solo; but it just wasn't right somehow. It sounded like he was playing in C. So the octave key and its associated timbre and color were happening on the wrong notes. You would have no tendency to thumb your nose at that? You wouldn't be bugged? I would. The reason it doesn't bug me in bluegrass and such is because that precedent was set when that style of music was invented, so it has always been part of the sound of that music.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 06-02-2010).]

Yes,Playing with several bands in other keys and singers.

Impuls

Yes, I use the transpose a bit. , but not every time.
While we are talking about keys, I have I had musicians say to practice intricate passages in every key.

For the most part all the jazz horn blowers with the exception of "Body And Soul," and "I cover the water front," in Db, most of the CD,s I have by these musicians, the tunes for the most part are in the keys of, Bb,C,Eb,F,G,Ab.

Most blues charts are in Bb or C sometimes Eb and F being use a bit for blues. Polka Dots F or Eb. All the things you are Ab. Days of wine and roses F. Tenderly Eb. I have not heard any famous sax musician record an up-tempo blues with the exception of Stan Getz in the key of D. Other than his tone, he just does not swing in the key of D.

I have played with guitar players where I was forced to play in E, D. It is just hard to swing on tenor sax in these keys. It is hard enough for me when I have to make a transition to a D bridge for a few bars in a Bb Blues. It is the same problem making a transition to E for the bridge in the key of C. Incidentally I am speaking of concert key for this complete explanation.
Sorry to drag on.

yeah, FAE (do you mind if i call you that lol?)
if i spent years learning how to transpose and then a technology came along that made that skill relatively obsolete..at least on most electric keyboards.. I would be pissed off too.

So i sympathize and understand all that and don't get pissed back, but i can't help it if I can do what they do just by pressing a button (in fact I can do MORE because most of them are not facile in ALL the keys...and I am!) They, of course, can also use the button when they want to use it as a "tool, not a crutch" (wink) but they either have perfect pitch (assuming that's really a reason to be thrown by playing one note and hearing a different note) and highly unlikely more pianists are born with than others..or they are being just tech-averse or scared or image-conscious or whatever when they decline using the transposer.

As far as your arguments re "transposer sax" and "things played in C will sound different
than in Ab even if it's transposed to Ab"..
well, let's just say i don't have the ears to really appreciate those extreme subleties-
my hat's off to you if you do. i can't imagine if i had a "transpose sax" using it like i use kbd would make things sound "off"
Sure there are parts of a horn that have different timbral qualities than other parts, and moving from one key to another
invokes subtle changes..but that's true whenever we have to play the same tune in different keys for different reasons--the band likes it in another key, the singer needs another key, etc. It doesn't throw the tune "off" to not be in original key, so why would a transposer button on my sax be any different?

I know a great singer in his 70's who took up piano to accompany himself when in his 40's. He's a great comper, and plays(and sings) ONLY in the key of C, and he won't use a transposer--because he's not ready to change what has worked for him. He's borne the brunt of derision from other pianists for years..now he's accepted with just humorous but not unkind jibes. The derision was uncalled for imo..they can't touch him as a singer and he comps as good or better than most..just plays in one key is all. he's not looking to be a sideman..he's a leader.

People who spend years learning something get very angry at those who succeed with a shorter path. Understandable, but not valid.

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Miami Mo

No transposer for me. Rory is right about capos. When you need an open bass note in the key you're playing, using one is called for. Otherwise, a player of Rory's skill level doesn't need one.


R.

I mostly agree with Rory. There are "licks" that you can play on the keyboard in certain keys that you can't play in others. I emulate guitar a lot and occasionally find it helpful to transpose, even though I can play in most all the keys.
For example, try playing Last Date in C#. Sure you can do it, but it wouldn't sound like it's supposed to. Of course I can't think of a reason to play it in C# anyway.
I think it would be difficult to cover a lot of songs in certain keys. How about Green Onions?
However, most of my transposer use is when I'm backing a "vocalist" who wants to sing in a key that is uncomfortable for me.
I do understand why some people don't have a problem with it. I have a vastly-talented blind friend, who has perfect pitch, and it drives him crazy to play a note and have it sound like a different note. He can tell when a note is sharp or flat by only a few cents. I imagine Rory has that ability as well.
Excellent post, Rory, and a good thread.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 06-02-2010).]