I was floored by the fellas on Bill in Dayton's post MODULATIONS talking about how they used the transposer quite often in those situations. I didn't think others would admit that so readily.

Being mainly a sax/vocalist and coming late to the keyboard,(now 10 years)and self-taught, I never developed the facility to comp in any key but C, .. even tho my right hand could handle most keys, my left hand can't. Pure laziness I guess but aside from arguments about how different hand positions will inspire different musical paths, the fact that the "crutch" of the transposer exists and I can play in any key because of it enables me to thumb my nose at those who turn up their nose at me..and think it's not right for me to get work doing that--that's it's not the music i make but the method that's the test.

I really don't care..i have made my choice to put in the time in developing other things rather than to spend time learning the left hand positions in several keys.
Not when the technology exists to serve me.

I know there are better pianists out there than me, for a lot more valid reasons than my use of the transposer..BUT..

What gets to me is this.. when these other pianists sit in and a singer wants a key other than the 2 or 3 they're comfortable with in that tune, they decline. so they are NOT really proficient in all keys..and when I suggest they use the transposer..they refuse and say this to me:

"It would drive me nuts to have my hands
play notes that will sound different from the notes that I'm used to hearing there"

So many have said that, they can't all be Full of S.., can they? And if they are not,
why is it that I have no problem at all using the transposer, and am not "thrown off" no matter what key the tune is in?

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Miami Mo

Mo, I have heard many times from folks that claim playing keys transpose via the keyboard in relationship to what they hear..is very tough....one thing in common with these folks that I am talking about...they all have perfect pitch..I believe this is a fact...

I read music and enjoy playing pieces in keys other than C, but it is my preferred key, nevertheless.

Sometimes I'll be reading a tune that's written in, let's say, D, but it doesn't quite hit the sweet spot for my sax sound, or perhaps a trumpet or acoustic guitar.

That's when I'll use the transposer to move up or down till it sounds right to me.

I don't have any trouble hearing one key and playing in another...guitar players use capos with no issues, so I really can't see why it should be any different for keyboard players.

I suppose those with perfect pitch, might have an issue...I don't have perfect pitch, but I do have a pretty good sense of relative pitch...I can hear chords, and identify them quite easily.

I love having the transposer...I could play without it, but it's too handy not to use.

Ian

Fran, it seemed logical to me that if someone has perfect pitch, it could be a reason that they are thrown by the transposer. (not sure tho, as I definitely do not have it--in fact I score very poorly on pitch tests..even tho i play my horns in tune and sing fairly much in tune(was hard work getting there however!)

However, it's hard for me to accept that ALL the guys who give me grief re the transposer could have perfect pitch..if they do what a waste, they should be singers or violinists!

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Miami Mo

I use the transpose occasionally as a tool, not a crutch. For instance, if I'm doing something orchestral and I need a harp flourish in B, I use the F# pentatonic and transpose it to B. In other words, all black keys; that way I can just slide along the black keys like a harpist would strum across the strings, rather than try to play a B pentatonic scale that fast, which would be impossible for even Art Tatum.

Also, it does sometimes come in handy to go either 1 semitone above or below, but I can't go further than that, and even that I only have done very infrequently.

Regarding capos, it's a totally different animal. For one thing, guitars don't have white and black keys, so G sharp as a bar chord doesn't feel any different than A as a bar chord. Not so with piano. Of course, what makes the difference is the open strings, which is an excellent reason to use a capo. I'm trying to get voicings that require open strings, but in a key that doesn't permit open strings, so I put a capo on and suddenly I have my open strings in that key. But that's mostly for country and bluegrass and folk type stuff. If I'm doing a bluegrass song in Bb I need my acoustic guitar to sound like he's playing all the open G licks. I can play jazz tunes in Bb all day long without a capo, but you can't rip convincing bluegrass licks there without a capo.
So I use a capo as a tool, not a crutch; just like transpose.

As a sax player mo, would you be thrilled if your sax had a transpose button? Would you have as much respect for (insert your favorite horn player) if you knew he only played in C? Since you're not a piano player, you do what you have to do to sound good; but it shouldn't be that hard to understand why actual pianists might have a gripe. There's something to be said for the authenticity of style and variation that happens when an instrument is played in the actual key; and if you don't care about that, then you don't, but some of us do. You're going to do some things playing in C that wouldn't be done in Ab; and that bugs some people. If you were listening to 1:00 jump (in Eb for tenor), and suddenly a tenor sax started taking a solo; but it just wasn't right somehow. It sounded like he was playing in C. So the octave key and its associated timbre and color were happening on the wrong notes. You would have no tendency to thumb your nose at that? You wouldn't be bugged? I would. The reason it doesn't bug me in bluegrass and such is because that precedent was set when that style of music was invented, so it has always been part of the sound of that music.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 06-02-2010).]

Yes,Playing with several bands in other keys and singers.

Impuls

Yes, I use the transpose a bit. , but not every time.
While we are talking about keys, I have I had musicians say to practice intricate passages in every key.

For the most part all the jazz horn blowers with the exception of "Body And Soul," and "I cover the water front," in Db, most of the CD,s I have by these musicians, the tunes for the most part are in the keys of, Bb,C,Eb,F,G,Ab.

Most blues charts are in Bb or C sometimes Eb and F being use a bit for blues. Polka Dots F or Eb. All the things you are Ab. Days of wine and roses F. Tenderly Eb. I have not heard any famous sax musician record an up-tempo blues with the exception of Stan Getz in the key of D. Other than his tone, he just does not swing in the key of D.

I have played with guitar players where I was forced to play in E, D. It is just hard to swing on tenor sax in these keys. It is hard enough for me when I have to make a transition to a D bridge for a few bars in a Bb Blues. It is the same problem making a transition to E for the bridge in the key of C. Incidentally I am speaking of concert key for this complete explanation.
Sorry to drag on.

yeah, FAE (do you mind if i call you that lol?)
if i spent years learning how to transpose and then a technology came along that made that skill relatively obsolete..at least on most electric keyboards.. I would be pissed off too.

So i sympathize and understand all that and don't get pissed back, but i can't help it if I can do what they do just by pressing a button (in fact I can do MORE because most of them are not facile in ALL the keys...and I am!) They, of course, can also use the button when they want to use it as a "tool, not a crutch" (wink) but they either have perfect pitch (assuming that's really a reason to be thrown by playing one note and hearing a different note) and highly unlikely more pianists are born with than others..or they are being just tech-averse or scared or image-conscious or whatever when they decline using the transposer.

As far as your arguments re "transposer sax" and "things played in C will sound different
than in Ab even if it's transposed to Ab"..
well, let's just say i don't have the ears to really appreciate those extreme subleties-
my hat's off to you if you do. i can't imagine if i had a "transpose sax" using it like i use kbd would make things sound "off"
Sure there are parts of a horn that have different timbral qualities than other parts, and moving from one key to another
invokes subtle changes..but that's true whenever we have to play the same tune in different keys for different reasons--the band likes it in another key, the singer needs another key, etc. It doesn't throw the tune "off" to not be in original key, so why would a transposer button on my sax be any different?

I know a great singer in his 70's who took up piano to accompany himself when in his 40's. He's a great comper, and plays(and sings) ONLY in the key of C, and he won't use a transposer--because he's not ready to change what has worked for him. He's borne the brunt of derision from other pianists for years..now he's accepted with just humorous but not unkind jibes. The derision was uncalled for imo..they can't touch him as a singer and he comps as good or better than most..just plays in one key is all. he's not looking to be a sideman..he's a leader.

People who spend years learning something get very angry at those who succeed with a shorter path. Understandable, but not valid.

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Miami Mo

No transposer for me. Rory is right about capos. When you need an open bass note in the key you're playing, using one is called for. Otherwise, a player of Rory's skill level doesn't need one.


R.

I mostly agree with Rory. There are "licks" that you can play on the keyboard in certain keys that you can't play in others. I emulate guitar a lot and occasionally find it helpful to transpose, even though I can play in most all the keys.
For example, try playing Last Date in C#. Sure you can do it, but it wouldn't sound like it's supposed to. Of course I can't think of a reason to play it in C# anyway.
I think it would be difficult to cover a lot of songs in certain keys. How about Green Onions?
However, most of my transposer use is when I'm backing a "vocalist" who wants to sing in a key that is uncomfortable for me.
I do understand why some people don't have a problem with it. I have a vastly-talented blind friend, who has perfect pitch, and it drives him crazy to play a note and have it sound like a different note. He can tell when a note is sharp or flat by only a few cents. I imagine Rory has that ability as well.
Excellent post, Rory, and a good thread.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 06-02-2010).]

i don't disagree with all of you at all.
every point you make re these things you can or can't do with a capo or transposer are correct.

but I just agree with Miles Davis..


dada dada dada da dada.."SO WHAT?"

[This message has been edited by keysvocalssax (edited 06-02-2010).]

I would not use the transposer if I was playing two handed style piano parts. Certain voicing aren't going to sound right- too muddy or too high.

On an arranger, that's so much of an issue. So yes I do use the transposer when backing a singer that sings in a diffenent key from the original. I alwyas mean to get around to learning the tune in the key of the singer but that doesn't always happen.

I do enjoying playing in all keys as an exercise. The other day I was practicing the bridge of "One Note Samba" in all keys. Now I can "quote" that melody in other tunes that aren't in the same key.

I like to take a blues lick in the RH and a boggie patern in the LH and run through all the keys.It gets especially tricky in C#, B, Ab, F#. I can do it in the practice room but I'd hate to have to play blues in C# on the band stand! It is possible but I'll leave that to the professionals. I have a day job, a family.... Rather than learn tunes in all 12 keys, I'd rather spend my time learning new tunes.

I use the transposer all the time. Sometimes the voice doesn't want to hit those higher notes, so I use it then.

Brickboo, i missed your reply earlier, and agree with you about the sax keys..except i'ts a bit harder for me because I've switched from Bb tenor to Eb alto and Eb sopranino, so all the "what note does this tune start on on my sax" that i memorized for years- now requires some severe mental juggling. Since I play by ear, I don't need to know the changes, I hear the changes..I just need to know the starting note if I have to play the head.

When I'm away from the jazz scene in Miami,
i'm up in nw CT in July/Aug/Sept..and so few jazz players up there so I sit in with several bluegrass, folk, and oldies groups. Much tougher than what you describe from guitarists, their favorite key is A..which puts me into F#, next favorite is D which puts me into B, next favorite is E which puts me into Db. Talk about finger-busters, playing awkward fingering transitions, etc.
But I'm grateful to them..I've developed a lot of facility in those keys now, and sometimes when that's all i play is with them
I get whack when I go play jazz and they call
Eb..I have no sharps or flats to play and I'm so used to playing them i start to fumble in what should be my easiest key.

So i'm not minimizing learning to play in all the keys..it helps the chops and if i had put in the time on my left hand on kb as i have on my right hand, I would be a lot better player now in some ways, even though I can do it all w/transposer. But on the other hand for me it was a tradeoff, as a lot of what i developed by concentrating more on other things would be behind in their development if i put that time into doing things the transposer does for me.

My inclination would be to fall with those who say they do both and make no bones about either..but i just haven't encountered too many of those.

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Miami Mo

I occasionally use a transposer; it's called THE SINGER. If she wants to do a tune in B, I just say, "we can do it in Bb or we can do it in C, PICK ONE". Why does it always have to be the keyboard player, never the singer or the drummer. I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.



chas

because, Chas, the singer is entitled to sing in the key that best suits their voice for the song. so learn the tune in B or use the transposer, for crying out loud.

you get all these sophisticated kbd players here telling me about how transposing can make things sound too different, yet the singer is expected to sing in a key that's comfortable for the pianist..who should be the one transposing, not the singer having to change the vocal quality of the tune by singing in a place that's not their BEST place.

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Miami Mo

I think Chas's comment was "tongue in cheek", Mo...hence the smiley.

Ian

Ian, i got the tongue in cheek. Don't be condescending. I thought it called for the kind of response I gave it, because Chas was being tongue in cheek only about his attitude.. but what he was saying is so common re players v. singers that it's a cliché. Pianist really do think singers should just employ their range to be in standard keys rather than them transposing for the singer. As i singer, I know this is wrong. I remember when the great Carmen Lundy made her first CD, her voice sounded strained to me in many places...I said Carmen, why didn't you do those tunes half a step or more lower? Her answer: the guys in the band said if I wanted to be a REAL jazz singer i had to be able to sing in their keys, and Mo, after all, that was the great Larry Willis, who am I as a newbie to tell him what to do? I said, IDIOT, that is YOUR CD, it's YOUR art, YOU are paying him, and
if he was really THE GREAT Larry Willis he would have accommodated you instead of trying to intimidate you. Next CD Larry Willis was history and she sounded fantastic.
IT'S INEXCUSABLE, if you have a transposer and you can't play in the key requested, to refuse to play in that key. UP YOURS with the "it drives me crazy' crap..WHO CARES..
learn to get used used to it. It's your JOB.

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Miami Mo

I wasn't being condescending Mo...I was sincere, and my intentions were good.

Sorry.

Ian

Mo, do you not play tunes that have bridges in a different key from the A section? How do you do those?

FAE, (is it Rory?)
It's really not any different using a transposer than not using it.

Unless you are one of those who cannot get used to a sound emerging that doesn't match what you expect from a key struck. But the fact that I, and others on this post like cassp and montunoman and impuls are not bothered by this would seem to indicate that others could adapt to it if they gave it a chance.

If a tune is called in Bb say, i just set my transposer for 2 steps down, and play it as if the tune was in C. In spite of the fact that when I finger a G7, say, an F7 is coming out, everything in my brain adjusts to that, and I have identical facility (or lack of it lol) no matter how i set the transposer. So your question about the bridges in a different key--it's no different using the transposer than if you were not using it.

and there's this you wrote in your first reply: "You're going to do some things playing in C that wouldn't be done in Ab; and that bugs some people. If you were listening to 1:00 jump (in Eb for tenor), and suddenly a tenor sax started taking a solo; but it just wasn't right somehow. It sounded like he was playing in C. So the octave key and its associated timbre and color were happening on the wrong notes. You would have no tendency to thumb your nose at that? You wouldn't be bugged? I would.

I don't mean this a put-down--but this to me is just off-the-wall. I can understand what you mean about timbre of octave key etc on sax, but that's such a non-issue and certainly nothing to get bugged about. I certainly don't understand how you translate this idea to the keyboard. Do you mean if someone is reading a complicated phrase in Ab, fingering it as if it was in C will be either much harder or much easier and will negatively affect how you hear that phrase?
If so, this seems an extremely far-out criticism, splitting hairs to the max.

Or did I not understand correctly or did you not understand correctly?




------------------
Miami Mo

Ian, I accept your apology without prejudice, thanks. I can understand how you came to that conclusion, it's no big deal.

Mo, I really WAS kidding, that's why I included the drummer. But I agree with you. To the extent possible, as a pro, it's your responsibility to accompany a singer in the key they request/require.

Your story about the singer who could only play in C reminds me of a great jazz organist I used to know by the name of "F# Lewis". I think his name (the only one I ever knew him by) says it all.

What I don't agree with you on (remember, it's all just opinion) is that hitting the transpose button will yield the same results as playing in the new key. Two things come into play (at least, for me). 1. Your phrasing and the way you voice the chords will be different; 2. Some songs just don't sound quite right except in the original key. A great jazz vocalist can usually overcome this (#2) with 'phrasing'. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't play straight-ahead blues the same in C as I do in F. There are riffs that you learn in one key that you just can't duplicate in another (I guess with enough practice, you could????).

In any case, I have nothing against using a transposer if that's what works for you, but after all these years of not using one (B3), why start now? BTW, on my Nord C1, there is no dedicated transpose button. Transposing requires a menu, several button pushes (some requiring the Shift key, some not), followed by a return to the main menu to change a program. Very poor design for those needing a quick transpose, especially in the middle of a tune, but I suppose the thinking was, it was designed mainly for B3 players who weren't used to a 'transposer' anyway. Who knows? Anyhoo, in the end, it's all a matter of personal preference.

chas

Chas, I agree with you on all counts, except that the basic flaw of all those who prefer the traditional ways is that most players don't really have any facility in more than 4 or 5 keys. Therefore, why not use no transposer for the keys they are comfortable in, and use a transposer for those they are not? Isn't this a reasonable solution? It is more problematic, however, when there is no dedicated transpose. I don't even like the E60 system, as you have to hit the transpose button, then look at the screen and touch the key you want on the facsimile keyboard shown. I can do this pdq but would prefer a two-button up/down system or better yet a slider showing the steps. The menus you talked about w/the Nord do make it a drag.
That's my beef with the dgx pianos too.

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Miami Mo

shoulda said most have facility in 5 or 6 keys..for standards/jazz players:
F G Bb C Eb, then Ab for some..then a few more advanced players can handle A and/or D, so there are 5-7 keys that would benefit from a transposer.
Those that work in guitar-based idioms learn to be comfy in G,A,C,D,E more than others.
same good opportunity for transposer if other keys desired.

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Miami Mo

The transpose buttons on my PSR-S910, and the Tyros3, are dedicated, and, when you hit the up/down, the instrument doesn't transpose till you get back on the keys again.

I'm sure there are other instruments with a similar setup...it sure makes using a transposer a lot easier.

When I played in bands, I never used the transposer, but learned and performed the tune in it's original key...we also played everything by ear.

Now I use the transposer quite often, including transpositions during a tune.

Ian

ok, now i do have to admit this..I sat in on sax with a singer last night, she works w/trax and was doing "Higher and Higher" and I have to admit it was a lot of fun running all the modulations...as it is soemtimes fun to do Mack the Knife and Beyond the Sea and such.
In fact, a guitarist has been sitting in with me regularly (I lay $20 gas money on him when he does) and instead of having to use the transposer, i let him do the chords and i play rh Vibes lines..try to get a semi-Shearing sound on the heads, and just
interlace around him. It's more fun when i don't use the transposer for that, and I just play in the called key. But if i had to play left hand, I'd need to go back to the
transposer. Simpler tunes I could get by in
F, G, and Bb without it, but just barely so I'd rather use the transposer to sound best.

------------------
Miami Mo

You're right, but you're talking about an 'off the cuff', 'spur of the moment' ('guest singer') need to transpose a tune that you already know. The biggest difficulty (for me) is taking a solo (in the 'uncomfortable' key. The way I normally handle it (NOT spur of the moment) is to learn a 'spontaneous' solo ahead of time but this, of course, takes away from the spontaneity that is so fundamental to live jazz.

There's no debate here, really, just choices. Either use the transpose button or learn to be facile in every key. One is easy and one requires more work. One may be more personally gratifying to those that care about such things. On the other hand, the other may be seen as taking advantage of the advances in music technology. From the audience's point of view, it's the product that matters.

chas

great last paragraph, Chas.
for my money this thread could end on that note!

"Purist" should only play instruments that cannot sound like any other instruments but it's own, or have any kind of transpose features whatsoever to serve their egos.........

That being said on the other side of the coin.....there are NO rules just play whatever you want in any way you want and have fun doing it.

Yes, there is no debate, and no "either or" for some of us.

I still try to keep comfortable in every key, and still stay away from the Easy Fake Books, yet, sometimes, using the transposer, especially to transpose down a key during a tune, sounds really cool to me, not to mention it's appeal to my laziness.

Ian

I have no problems using the transpose button. I play often with a tenor sax and trumpet player using songs from fakebooks. I transpose down a whole step and these guys can read right off the chart as is.

Also my vocal range is considered 2nd bass. By transposing down a whole step it makes most tunes singable for me. This works well most of the time. The execption to this is Beatles tunes, Yesterday and Something. I have to move these down 2 whole steps.

I would rather spend my limited time honing my performance than learning the tune in a different key.

I still have trouble using a capo on guitar, I'm just not used to it. None of the professional guitar players I know would ever use a capo.

Tom

Tom

Since when did making playing easier for the player by any means a crime? Why such animosity toward anything that strays away from so called purism in playing an instrument?
Who made these rules?

I've never SEEN a professional JAZZ guitarist use one. Whether they WOULD or not might be a different story. I know that a great many legendary bluesmen used them, but I would think that they may have been less 'schooled' in terms of formal training. Of course, this is only speculation on my part.

chas

Donny, what's with you and "egos". I thought we already had a consensus on the board that YOU weren't allowed to use that word .

chas

Sorry Chas but there's NO other word that can be substituted....think about it!

Tom, Tommy Emmanuel, John Mayer, Vince Gil and others do...there's even a clip of Chet Atkins using a capo. But, in every case, these guys use the capo when playing an acoustic guitar, when they need to use an open bass note(s). It's generally a different story when they switch to electric.

All these guys know more than I. I never use a capo, but I rarely, if ever use steel string acoustics or play the kind of material where that style is required, so, for me and the style(s) I play, power chords are the norm. As a sax player, your popular keys are probably Eb, Ab, Bb, etc...no right open notes without a capo. If either of us were trying to accompany ourselves on a vocal in a style that required strong open-note chords, you or I would use a capo to play in the right key. If you'll notice, acoustic specialists use close to the nut structures. High on the neck power chords on, say a Martin just don't work well on tunes written for a traditional acoustic guitar.

It is a fact, however, that a large number of players use a capo because they cannot do it any other way. Then, it becomes a crutch, not a tool.

Didn't know you were a "picker". Just wish that you could have joined your family here in Lexington a few years ago so we could have "picked and grinned" together.

Russ (still "pick" well, just don't "grin" as much) Lay

P.S. Chas, damn, you're getting to be a polite, eloquent old dude. Now, THAT'S a little hard to get used to (LOL). Seriously, good solid points, with the appropriate amount of fun directed at that "singer from hell" all of us old timers have run into.


See you soon,


R.

Chas, you'll probably never see a real jazz guitarist playing JAZZ using a capo. That would be a real cop-out and an indication of a real lack of ability. But you might see a jazz player switching to acoustic, accompanying, say a (UGH) country artist, a folk or, in some instance, a pop artist use a capo. You're right about the old blues guys. They played in G and D...that's about it. A basic open G played with a capo on the first fret obviously produces an Ab with the same fingering.

A good example is the guy who backs up all the contestants on America's got Talent and American Idol, Paul Jackson, Jr. He currently has a light jazz version of Michael Jackson's "Man in the Mirror" on heavy rotation on the smooth jazz stations and is actually a seasoned jazz star in Europe and Asia (Regularly tours with George Benson and the like). When he backs up performers on acoustic, he uses a capo. Otherwise... FAGETABOUTIT! For good players the capo is a tool required for certain styles, not to compensate for lack of ability.

And when our friend, Rory uses a capo, you can bet the farm that it isn't to compensate for a lack of ability. He's simply, "re-tuning" his instrument to provide the appropriate open bass notes for the song, key and style he's playing.

Russ (no capo for me) Lay


[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 06-03-2010).]

Russ,

I'm not a picker I'm a strummer. I play rhythm guitar with the praise band in my church. I only know the basic chords and struggle playing in flats. I have limited abilities on guitar so I DO use a capo when playing in Bb or Eb. And yes I'm playing an Ibanez electric. I know it is a crutch and I still don't feel comfortable doing it but I do. I've played in a band with two older jazz guys and they didn't care what key you played in, no capo. My buddy says once you know the changes it's all position anyway. You are right these guys were playing electrics. The one guy is dead and he died ON THE BANDSTAND at a jazz festival in one of those south eastern coastal states VA NC or SC I don't remember anymore. I could go that way rather than being shot by a jealous husband.

My wife and I will get to Lexington one of these days to see her cousin and you can be sure I will try to look you up. I'm an old organ player and wouldn't think of picking with you. I'll play your Sd5 B3 or whatever and you can play the guitar.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 06-03-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 06-03-2010).]

So Mo, what you're saying is, you can play in more keys, but just not comfortably. So if the bridge mods to a different key, you aren't hitting the transpose button in order to play the bridge in C in the middle of the tune, and then hit the transpose button again so you can play in C over the release. So if you're playing Sentimental mood in F, you'll transpose so you can play it in C, but over the bridge you will play in A flat? Or will you also use the transpose in the middle of the tune to get you into the bridge key and back out? If so, how on earth do you do that smoothly and get all the transition chords?

Tom, sorry to dominate the space here, but, with your saxophone and keyboard background, you could develop an understanding of the basic power (sliding) chords in a surprisingly short time. An "F" played on the 4th fret is an Ab. Lift your middle finger and you have an Ab minor. That works all the way up the neck as far as you can reach. There are other rules, of course, for playing 9ths, 11ths, major sevenths...a different set of rules for playing lots of chords based on the "C" format
(cover the open string in a "C" chord with your little finger to make a "C7th". Now, move it to the 4th fret for an Ab 7th).

Think the alphabet and rules similar to the ones you use in algebra. Think not rote memory learning, but logical rules to determine the fret used and the rules to make the version of the chord you want. Plus, when you use power chords, you can control sustain and generally "comp" cool variations of the lead line in that general geographic position.

If you're interested, call or write. I'll be
glad to show you what little I know.

After all, sharing is a big part of what being a musician is all about. And I'm sure there's lots I can learn from you.


Be well,


Russ

Rory, If you're hip enough to play Sentimental Mood, you don't need no "STINKIN TRANSPOSE BUTTON".

You don't, for sure!


Russ (wish you were in Nashville this NAMM) Lay

There are certain guitar styles involving open strings that would be simply impossible to transpose without using a capo. They probably aren't used in jazz but in other musical styles they certainly are. I can think of a few songs that use droning open strings while fretting quite high up the guitar neck. These are impossible to play transposed without a capo regardless of technical ability. One song that comes to mind is Starship Trooper by Yes. You use whatever you need to use to accomplish the sound you need to create.

I think the 'open note' syndrome for guitarists is part of why transposers are legitimate at times even for keyboards. We all know how certain licks and runs fall easily under the fingers, and sound a certain way, but it take prodigious chops to play those exact same licks and runs IDENTICALLY in keys that make you finger them completely differently.

I can pretty much guarantee that if Corea or Hancock played one of their barn-burners in a 1/2 tone higher or lower than it's usual key, you would NOT hear exactly the same licks and chops. But if those licks and chops ARE part of the signature sound of a particular song, and the singer, or horn player, etc. wants to do them in a different key, what are you to do? Ruin the song by trying to be 'purist', or let the show go on by using your transpose?

What is getting confused here, I think, is the difference between being facile in all keys (which you need to be... even if you can only play in C, a bridge that modulates all over the place is going to force you to play those keys anyway) and able to transpose charts by sight and be indistinguishable from not transposing at all. This latter one is a rare commodity. While it's true you'll seldom see a jazz guitarist using a capo, you'll also seldom see a jazz pianist play a standard, particularly a challenging, much modulating one, in a half step away from the book key (or aug4, or any of those keys that REALLY change your hand position) and be as comfortable. The nature of the guitar means that, as long as the aren't using open strings, transposing for them means doing EXACTLY the same thing a fret or two higher or lower.

Essentially, doing little more than a keyboardist hitting the transpose button. I somehow doubt that, if it were so utterly different going from one key to another on the guitar as it is for piano, you would see so many jazz guitarists eschewing the capo! They certainly don't seem to mind it once open notes come into play... So much for 'purism'!

In a situation where you are likely to get thrown the same song on multiple nights in different keys (I'm in a band where they like to do Ipanema in F AND in D on the same night, depending on whether the sax player or singer is doing it... heck, sometimes he does BOTH at the same time and you have to modulate ), or a singer's voice is off and wants it down a half or whole step, when you are sight reading charts and the singer needs a different key, sure, I don't mind admitting I'll use a transposer.

But bottom line is, should I be stuck on a piano or organ without the transposer, I can still get by. I won't sound as good, and I might clam from time to time, but I can do it.

And, less the purists think the transposer evil incarnate, let us not forget that it provides the perfect opportunity to practice other keys for familiar tunes on the gig WITHOUT messing with the singer..! Just play them in a weird key, and transpose it to the right one!

Any sword cuts both ways...

As far as adjusting for singers goes, key-wise, again, if your function is simply back-up, sure, you learn the song in his/her key. But, if you're talking about an established group, particularly, a jazz group, in my world, the singer either sings in stock keys, or you get another singer. I am not going to adjust all arrangements to compensate for the requirements of a vocalist, unless that vocalist was the headliner. To do that, you would have a problem every time you had to replace ANY player. The new person would have to re-learn all tunes in keys other than stock. \That is a time-taker and not the way business as I know it is done.

Now, getting back to the Chas' previous reference to Diana Krall and Alicia....ANY KEY IS FINE!

Russ (still look, but no longer touch) Lay

Even Paul McCartney uses a Capo singing Michelle to the First lady last night!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ni-0eXQ-rs

Good example, Donny, although Paul isn't as good a musician as he is a writer. If he were playing electric, he might have chosen power chords. A better player absolutely would have, on electric. Tommy Emannuel would have used a capo, too, so style, the tune, vocal range and instrument determine the proper combo.


Russ

I love the accordion player in that song also gives it that French feel...good stuff!

Rory I see the problem we're having understanding each other. I never use the transposer mid-tune, I just use it for the whole tune, so as i said it's no different than just playing all tunes as if they were in C. I don't have any problem with the bridges on most tunes, and if they are the tunes with difficult bridge changes for me,
I just play very sparely for those sections
and use mostly right hand runs rather than try to fill out the chord. I'm far from a "complete" keyboardist but I can compensate in other ways. Without a transposer I'd be limited to single-note right hand (pretty good) and lh bass lines (not so great)I'm strictly a product of the modern era on keys. Without semi-weighted keys, dedicated transposers, kbds that have nice vibes (my best work) organs, ep's, i'd never have pursued playing keys professionally.



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Miami Mo

When I went to California in the early 60's, most of the Surf bands had lead and rhythm guitar, bass and tenor, with, sometimes an organ (usually, and old Vox or M-100).

Often because of skill limitations and the need to have a repetitive, strong open E or A note, bands would tune down 1/2 step. Eb (1'st string) or Ab (2nd string) were more comfortable keys for the horn, and the deeper "triple-picked" bass notes recorded better (think "Pipeline"). The keyboard player just had to learn six chords...three each in Eb and Ab (HA)!


Russ (Three chord) Lay

Let us not forget Irving Berlin, and his sliding action Steinway (is it still on display opposite Carnegie Hall at the Steinway showroom?). Here's a guy that wrote some of the best tunes ever, and he could only play well in the one key...

The trick is to mitigate your weaknesses, not display them proudly and say 'I could use a transposer and sound MUCH better, but I choose not to, because I am a REAL musician!'.

BTW, Russ, what do you do when the singer IS the bandleader, and wants to do things in strange keys (and you are subbing for the night)...?

Me, I do what it takes...

In that case...me, too!


R.

I can't stand so many agreeing with me, and the fact that so many of you unashamedly admit to using a transposer makes it impossible for me to thumb my nose at you when you look down your nose at me. So from now on I am no longer going to use my transposer, I will have it removed and replaced with an espresso maker.
Fueled by the caffeine, I will play only atonal music. 12 keys were 11 too many for me, that's why I used a transposer. Now I realize even 1 key is too many. no more keys!

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Miami Mo

I think it's time to start using the under-utilized microtuning section on our arrangers. 12 keys is WAY too few (especially for a few 'singers' I know! ), and microtuning could easily double that number...!

OK, I'll "fess up". I've never even touched the transpose button on a keyboard, and, more than once, suffered the consequences.

I'm going to break out my seldom played SD-5 this afternoon (still prefer my 15 year old MS-60's)and try it out this afternoon.

Russ