FAE, (is it Rory?)
It's really not any different using a transposer than not using it.

Unless you are one of those who cannot get used to a sound emerging that doesn't match what you expect from a key struck. But the fact that I, and others on this post like cassp and montunoman and impuls are not bothered by this would seem to indicate that others could adapt to it if they gave it a chance.

If a tune is called in Bb say, i just set my transposer for 2 steps down, and play it as if the tune was in C. In spite of the fact that when I finger a G7, say, an F7 is coming out, everything in my brain adjusts to that, and I have identical facility (or lack of it lol) no matter how i set the transposer. So your question about the bridges in a different key--it's no different using the transposer than if you were not using it.

and there's this you wrote in your first reply: "You're going to do some things playing in C that wouldn't be done in Ab; and that bugs some people. If you were listening to 1:00 jump (in Eb for tenor), and suddenly a tenor sax started taking a solo; but it just wasn't right somehow. It sounded like he was playing in C. So the octave key and its associated timbre and color were happening on the wrong notes. You would have no tendency to thumb your nose at that? You wouldn't be bugged? I would.

I don't mean this a put-down--but this to me is just off-the-wall. I can understand what you mean about timbre of octave key etc on sax, but that's such a non-issue and certainly nothing to get bugged about. I certainly don't understand how you translate this idea to the keyboard. Do you mean if someone is reading a complicated phrase in Ab, fingering it as if it was in C will be either much harder or much easier and will negatively affect how you hear that phrase?
If so, this seems an extremely far-out criticism, splitting hairs to the max.

Or did I not understand correctly or did you not understand correctly?




------------------
Miami Mo

Ian, I accept your apology without prejudice, thanks. I can understand how you came to that conclusion, it's no big deal.

Mo, I really WAS kidding, that's why I included the drummer. But I agree with you. To the extent possible, as a pro, it's your responsibility to accompany a singer in the key they request/require.

Your story about the singer who could only play in C reminds me of a great jazz organist I used to know by the name of "F# Lewis". I think his name (the only one I ever knew him by) says it all.

What I don't agree with you on (remember, it's all just opinion) is that hitting the transpose button will yield the same results as playing in the new key. Two things come into play (at least, for me). 1. Your phrasing and the way you voice the chords will be different; 2. Some songs just don't sound quite right except in the original key. A great jazz vocalist can usually overcome this (#2) with 'phrasing'. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly don't play straight-ahead blues the same in C as I do in F. There are riffs that you learn in one key that you just can't duplicate in another (I guess with enough practice, you could????).

In any case, I have nothing against using a transposer if that's what works for you, but after all these years of not using one (B3), why start now? BTW, on my Nord C1, there is no dedicated transpose button. Transposing requires a menu, several button pushes (some requiring the Shift key, some not), followed by a return to the main menu to change a program. Very poor design for those needing a quick transpose, especially in the middle of a tune, but I suppose the thinking was, it was designed mainly for B3 players who weren't used to a 'transposer' anyway. Who knows? Anyhoo, in the end, it's all a matter of personal preference.

chas

Chas, I agree with you on all counts, except that the basic flaw of all those who prefer the traditional ways is that most players don't really have any facility in more than 4 or 5 keys. Therefore, why not use no transposer for the keys they are comfortable in, and use a transposer for those they are not? Isn't this a reasonable solution? It is more problematic, however, when there is no dedicated transpose. I don't even like the E60 system, as you have to hit the transpose button, then look at the screen and touch the key you want on the facsimile keyboard shown. I can do this pdq but would prefer a two-button up/down system or better yet a slider showing the steps. The menus you talked about w/the Nord do make it a drag.
That's my beef with the dgx pianos too.

------------------
Miami Mo

shoulda said most have facility in 5 or 6 keys..for standards/jazz players:
F G Bb C Eb, then Ab for some..then a few more advanced players can handle A and/or D, so there are 5-7 keys that would benefit from a transposer.
Those that work in guitar-based idioms learn to be comfy in G,A,C,D,E more than others.
same good opportunity for transposer if other keys desired.

------------------
Miami Mo

The transpose buttons on my PSR-S910, and the Tyros3, are dedicated, and, when you hit the up/down, the instrument doesn't transpose till you get back on the keys again.

I'm sure there are other instruments with a similar setup...it sure makes using a transposer a lot easier.

When I played in bands, I never used the transposer, but learned and performed the tune in it's original key...we also played everything by ear.

Now I use the transposer quite often, including transpositions during a tune.

Ian

ok, now i do have to admit this..I sat in on sax with a singer last night, she works w/trax and was doing "Higher and Higher" and I have to admit it was a lot of fun running all the modulations...as it is soemtimes fun to do Mack the Knife and Beyond the Sea and such.
In fact, a guitarist has been sitting in with me regularly (I lay $20 gas money on him when he does) and instead of having to use the transposer, i let him do the chords and i play rh Vibes lines..try to get a semi-Shearing sound on the heads, and just
interlace around him. It's more fun when i don't use the transposer for that, and I just play in the called key. But if i had to play left hand, I'd need to go back to the
transposer. Simpler tunes I could get by in
F, G, and Bb without it, but just barely so I'd rather use the transposer to sound best.

------------------
Miami Mo

You're right, but you're talking about an 'off the cuff', 'spur of the moment' ('guest singer') need to transpose a tune that you already know. The biggest difficulty (for me) is taking a solo (in the 'uncomfortable' key. The way I normally handle it (NOT spur of the moment) is to learn a 'spontaneous' solo ahead of time but this, of course, takes away from the spontaneity that is so fundamental to live jazz.

There's no debate here, really, just choices. Either use the transpose button or learn to be facile in every key. One is easy and one requires more work. One may be more personally gratifying to those that care about such things. On the other hand, the other may be seen as taking advantage of the advances in music technology. From the audience's point of view, it's the product that matters.

chas

great last paragraph, Chas.
for my money this thread could end on that note!

"Purist" should only play instruments that cannot sound like any other instruments but it's own, or have any kind of transpose features whatsoever to serve their egos.........

That being said on the other side of the coin.....there are NO rules just play whatever you want in any way you want and have fun doing it.