Found this on Youtube. This guy can really play!

He has LOTS of covers posted, chose one in random http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwUMKsbJZVo&feature=related

Igor Presnyakov is a guitarist/composer/arranger/singer with a Russian origin. He was born in Moscow and currently lives in The Netherlands. In Russia he has studied classical guitar where he graduated as a guitarist and a conductor for ensembles. Except for his solo performances he also works with various artists. Thirty five years of playing the guitar gave Igor great experience: a fusion of different music genres from classical to world music with a jazz/pop flavour. Igor also plays the Russian 7-string guitar which was very popular in Russia in the 19th century. Only a few guitarists in the world play the 7-string guitar on a professional level. He has already made appearances on different TV and Radio shows. In 2004 Igor was performing on the prestigious 34th International Fingerpicking Contest in Winfield (Kansas) USA. Igor is a performing artist who gives concerts on a national and international basis. His music also appeared in a play "Six Years" by Sharr White , which was recently played by the MomentumTheatreGroup at the Lex Theatre in Hollywood.

Awesome player....Wow !

He definitly performed & gave one of my all time favorite songs Acoustic Justice.... !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN0nKKIB3r4&feature=related

I am curious of what the guitar players think, like Nigel and especially Rory.

Really great player...maybe not quite in the Tommy Emmanuel class, but world-class, for sure.

Our friend Rory has equal talents, I believe.

Good find! The guy really deserves his universal praise!


Russ

Russ what kind of guitar is he playing?

Donny, I looked really hard...even stopped the video. It's nothing I ever saw before...probably an eastern European custom...something he had built for himself, maybe.


R.

Russ, I paused the video, too.
The first letter on the guitar used on the link Donny provided, looked like a "T", so I Googled for "list of guitar makers", clicked on the Wikipedia link, and found this:



www.takamine.com

I am confident it is the right one.

Trident, the net detective.

Also, Dire Straits' Sultans of Swing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_9NSq4U3nw


[This message has been edited by trident (edited 08-25-2010).]

You're probably right...I don't really collect or know steel string acoustics like I do others. Talked to Tommy Emmanuel when he was here last year, and he played a little known guitar made in his homeland.

Whatever this guy plays, he's a master. Can't really understand why people...even music equipment manufacturers, don't pay more attention to the AUDIO part of a YouTube post!


Russ

I agree, it is not what you play, it's how you play.

Truer words were never spoken......
Audya, Tyros, Korg what's the difference?...it's what YOU sound like playing the instrumentthat counts period.

Nice work Trident being he's from the USSR who knows what the can obtain to play....all I know Igor got the goods!

I thought he was good, not utterly fantastic, but then, my standards are a little high. To me, Sylvain Luc is the pinacle of acoustic guitar players, even more than Tommy emanuel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXXe2ukYQlY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5bz8qhh0qU

I am a guitar player and not that good and I thought that he is very good but he is not jaw-dropping good. And the very first player that popped into my mind is Tommy Emmanuel. But we are talking... TE is in the top three guitarists in the entire world to me. He is that good.

So, this guy, is plenty good, but not THAT good. He is just VERY good. I applaud him.

And, to me, this Sylvain Luc cannot even touch Tommy Emanuel. He has ZERO soul. He is just playing a **** load of notes. That is it. Technical superiority, maybe. Soul, with technical superiority, NO. He doesn't have it. No offense intended.

I think the difference between Tommy and Silvain is that Silvain plays interpretive jazz, and Tommy Emmanuel plays spectacular versions of very recognizable songs, with a healthy, fun entertainment flair.

Sylvain is a monster, but I'd put him in the Tuck Andress class. Can't really compare the two, given the different styles they play.

I like Sylvain's technique and interpretations better, but ya gotta give it to Emmanuel on the entertainment front.

Sylvain and Bireli (another player I wasn't familiar with) are messing with the tune (Isn't She Lovely), and that's GREAT. Sylvain plays one of my favorite guitars in my collection, a Godin Multiac nylon string, and Bireli plays an L-5 size Gibson with a single pick-up (various ones). Again, one of my favorite guitar brands and design. I mostly have two-pick-up L-5's.

Bireli plays a fretless bass on another YouTube piece that would make Jaco proud.

There's a kid from Lexington...Ben Lacey, who now works lots of booths at NAMM and demos for lots of folks making a name for himself, too.

Just goes to show that there is an up and coming crop of superior players (my friend Rory included) to keep outstanding music alive!

And that's GREAT!


Russ

Although all these people are surly great guitar players for a reason in the own right and should be appreciated as such....But, being a professional arranger Kb artist myself...I'd really prefer watching GREAT Arranger KB players so I can absorb and learn from them.....anyone want to post some?

Unfortunately, I don't know any. I know some good arranger players, maybe even 1 or 2 very good arranger players. But Great, no; and world class, certainly no. But thanks for askin'.

Donny, who would those "great arranger keyboard artists" be? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but these "pickers" pretty much used no "assistance", in the form of loopers, sequences, effects, etc. They almost played "naked" I would think that the situation is different with an arranger, where the primary skill, or at least 1/2 the talent lies in manipulation of the auto features of the instrument and being able to adjust playing techniques to match the auto functions.

I'm not knocking that talent, but I think it's a different skill set than the guys we're talking about here.

On guitar, and on keyboards, too, I think as you get better, you tend to get back to basics. Most of the superior keyboard players I know don't use arrangers. Most of the superior entertainers I know use every possible trick. The "slippery" slope is the tendency to take the easy way out and allow the equipment, rather than the player to do more work than necessary.

Just an opinion. Take it for what it's worth...just my opinion.

Russ

P.S. I REALLY am interested in the names of those superior arranger PLAYERS. I'd like to watch them, too!

Although playing an arranger IMO....is far more difficult in so many ways ....when you have to be multi-talented to control in real time so many different things at once & making them sound good vs just worrying about one solo instrument. Nothing against solo or as you would say "Naked Players"....an Arranger KB always gets the bad rep, usually by people who could never play one in a world class manner. Its just another instrument although very complex in its entirety shouldn't be frowned upon...you are controlling the parts of 3-8+ people playing by yourself at once and credit should be given where it's due....it's just another musical talent, as is DJ's looping, Rapping or whatever..just another way to make music & there's nothing wrong with it as long as the player enjoys it and the people listening, purchasing, dancing, etc, etc,...
"What it sounds like" will always be my way of thinking...how its done is secondary. Any person making a full time living playing an arranger keyboard should get the props deserved as should anyone who puts their heart and soul into their playing. Can we just please embrace fellow musicians and learn from each other instead of being discordant all the time ?.......

PS....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Mk2Rst4Y8&feature=related

PSS....Triden apologize how this thread went south as usual

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-26-2010).]

I beg to differ. An arranger player does the job of ONE. It doesn't matter how many voices you're playing, it only takes ONE player to do that.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Having played both a guitar for many, many years, and an arranger for many, many years, from my perspective, the guitar was much easier.

In both instances, I play the instrument and sing--that was the only similarity. It took a fair amount of talent and expertise to play the guitar, but the most difficult aspect of learning to play the guitar was learning to strum in various styles while singing.

The keyboard, which is a wonderful instrument in it's own right, takes care of the strumming part automatically, but, the on the fly technical aspects are far more complex than anything I ever encountered on a guitar. Not only do you have to remember the left hand chording, but additionally, you have to provide some right hand instrumentation for a host of instrument sounds, be able to rapidly select the proper sound (voice), sing the song, remember the lyrics, hit the correct fills, keep in time with the keyboard's regimented tempo, get set up for the next song, and dozens of other things I never think about because I just do them automatically.

It was a lot easier when I was a solo guitar player, sitting on a bar-stool with my 12-string guitar, a 100-watt amp next to the stool, a mic stand and a beat-up SM58. I had a lyrics book that consisted of a 3-inch-thick looseleaf binder that was perched on another bar-stool until I made enough money to buy a music stand with a weighted base. I played everything from old-time country to Malaguena, to House Of The Rising Sun, to 50 R&R. I was never a fantastic player, or even a great player. However, I was a good entertainer and that's what the bar and restaurant owners were paying me to do.

I listened to the posted song a couple times. To me it was played quite well--not fantastic. And, to me, it was boring as Hell. I sincerely believe Rory and Bill are much better guitar players. I'll stick with the arranger keyboard--for me, it's far more entertaining and much more challenging.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, I don't believe that one instrument is easier than another. While the guitar may look as the easier instrument, looks are deceptive. An instrument is as complex as the one playing it. That's why we have mediocre players, great players, fantastic players and virtuosi.

A fantastic arranger player will most likely be as adept at playing the organ or piano. What do you think would be his first choice? Either the piano or the organ.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

Great performance, tks for sharing. I think in Brazil we have another guitarist in the same level: Yamandu Costa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGiZUwgRls&feature=related

Chico, that was delightful!

What a talent!


Russ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lbvSBNLLoo

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-27-2010).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY-Plvg0PQA&feature=related

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-27-2010).]

Chico,

WOW! What a talent. His fingering, chording and strumming coordination is beyond anything I've seen--ever! INCREDIBLE!

Thanks for the link,

Gary

It certainly wasn't my intention to send the topic "South". After all, the initial topic was the talent of the first guitar player posted; then some others suggested by members.

I'll certainly agree that sitting on a stool, playing "House of the Rising Sun" on a 12 string with a notebook on a stand is easier than playing an arranger, but that's only exploring the surface of playing the guitar.

Unfortunately, that's where most performers stop learning...simple open chords with capos. That's why I hate and refuse to play Buffet music (UGH!).

I'm talking musicianship like the abilities of Tuck Andress, Tommy Emmanuel, George Benson, Rory and others....FAR, FAR more complex than either slapping at simple chords on guitar to accompany vocals or playing any arranger, the way most players do.

We're talking the kind of guitar where the player is covering lead lines, bass lines, chords AND playing innovative, "off the cuff" variations, inversions, etc.!

In my mind, that kind of playing is far more complex. I've been attempting to do that for over 54 years-since my first job playing Less Paul tunes at an Officers Club at Ladd AFB in Fairbanks, Alaska.

But, guys, this isn't some kind of slam on arrangers or those who play them. It's my opinion, period...an expression of my beliefs and preferences.

I wish I had the ability to entertain on an arranger or any other instrument. I don't.
What I can do is earn top money in my market and work 4 plus jobs a week for the past 54 years...still going strong...with 9 total week off in that time. And the people who book me wouldn't consider a flat-top player with a capo and a book full of three chord tunes, or most arranger players.

Chet Atkins, on a TV interview in the 70's said, "I played one of these things (guitar) for over 10 years before I realized that I didn't even know how to tune it properly (he was talking about setting intonation)". "But by that time, I was too rich to give a damn (big, silly grin)".

He, of course, was making fun of all the "pickers and grinners" who never even got to the point of understanding the complexity and possibilities of the instrument.

And, what you appreciate depends on where you're coming from. I certainly was not bored listening to any of the guitar players posted, but I'm listening for superior musicianship over just appreciating entertainment. The one player who does both in my mind is Tommy Emmanuel. Others, like Tuck Andress don't even try to entertain. And, he's fantastic!

This all speaks to the inherent differences between individuals here. Some will always believe that entertainment by any means is the primary talent. Others, me included, value musicianship over entertainment abilities. The two sides will always differ.

NEITHER POSITION IS INHERENTLY RIGHT OR WRONG!

I have an arranger job tonite, so I'm certainly aware of the possibilities for work and the creation of good music.

It's just that, to me, there is a world of great options; many of which I prefer over playing an arranger...again, FOR ME!

Great musicianship...particularly in the jazz genre, is like fine scotch...an acquired taste. A typical statement from those who haven't taken the time to understand what they're hearing is "that's boring".

But, if you don't acquire the taste, you just won't get it! And that's a real shame.

Enjoy whatever and however you play, everyone.


Russ

And, Donny, there's no reason to get defensive. There was no slam intended, and while there are things which we will NEVER agree on, I value our association and the connection we have in a field we both love.

Gary, you have always said that your strengths were in singing/entertaining, not musicianship...nothing wrong with that. My reference to the difference between "pickers and grinners" and guitar instrumentalists was in no way a critique of your abilities on guitar, but to point out the options and differences in degrees of difficulty. Certainly no slam intended!

R.



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-27-2010).]

Russ......"Defensive"? No......Passionate about my profession...YES!

I still love ya man!!
and you still get a big Hug if & when I'm in Lexington sometime ok?...

carry on!

D.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-27-2010).]

Donny, that passion about what you do, and your "heart on the sleeve" attitude is something I REALLY admire!

I do wish we get a chance to visit soon!

All the best!


Russ

A guitar is a musical instrument. An arranger is a semi-automatic jukebox, conceived and produced solely for the purpose of allowing non-accomplished home players to enjoy the process of (believing that they are) making music. Arranger KB's will NEVER, EVER be accepted by the music community (professional and educational) as a legitimate musical instrument. Like it or not, those are the facts. No matter how bellicose, belligerent, and defensive it's fan base gets, those facts are never going to change. Of course, that's assuming it's being used for it's design purpose. A Steinway Grand looks great in the 'parlor', but it's design purpose is not to be a piece of furniture, but a musical instrument.

I think those arranger players on this board who are truly proficient on 'legitimate' (traditional) instruments (piano, organ, guitar, violin, juice harp, etc.), will agree. Of course, none of this invalidates it's use in a OMB act whose primary focus is entertaining....by any means necessary. In fact, depending on your audience, it may be the best choice. But calling a professional quality musical performance on a beautiful and challenging musical instrument "BORING' while championing the 'artistry' of a bunch of canned styles created by someone other than the performing 'artist', is just plain .....well, you fill in the blank.

JMO.

chas

I'm with Chas on this one. Actually I said pretty much the same but in less words.

Taike

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

wow you finally woke up and post again and the ego purist attitude shines right thru...Bravo!!! nothing changes! btw what does all this have to do with
Igor Presnyakov?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-27-2010).]

Sorry, but I neglected to say that Don was an enjoyable player I would go listen to.


Thanks for the post.


R.

Actually, I just went back and listened to 5 or 6 of Don's Youtube pieces. Alternative tunings are cool, difficult and interesting.

Don is under-appreciated. He is an alternative tunings specialist, with lots of talent...certainly one who deserves recognition and appreciation. Only thing is, I can't interpret what he's doing, since I'm not always familiar with the tuning he's using. Whatever tuning(s) he uses, he really knows what he's doing.

Thanks for pointing him out.

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-27-2010).]

Everything. I was contrasting a guy who can actually play to your average half-assed singer who accompanies himself all night playing three-finger chords on an arranger, all in the key of C, and imagines himself a "pro". Also, I'd think you'd be the very LAST person on earth to bring up the subject of ego. In fact, there should be some kind of law, whereby your ego is not allowed to grow beyond your playing ability.

Here's my take. Musicians are usually looking for qualities in their instrument like 'sweetness of tone', character, playability; things that allow you to play MORE, while most (BUT NOT ALL) arranger players are usually looking for more and more 'features' that allow them to play LESS (sequencers, dual MP3 players, vocalizers (so even their singing can't be recognized), arpeggiators, loopers, and the list goes on. Here's another clue. Many arranger players profess to prefer playing alone as opposed to with other musicians. Hardly any musician feels that way. There may be economic considerations but as a pure preference..........no way.

The truth may be unpopular, but it is what it is.

"There is none so blind as he that WILL not see" (SOMETIMES the Bible is right).

Your BFF,

chas

Oh, and BBBB, I don't consider Rory an arranger player, but a very talented musician who likes to play around with one. I've heard a number of his tracks, including video, and I don't recall any of them featuring an arranger. Wonder why? Heck, if he would only use an arranger, he could probably sound almost as good as ......Donny.

I watched a couple of clips of Tommy Emmanuel. That was the most amazing acoustic guitar I have heard.

Most ultra-virtuosos play stuff where the main attraction is that it is hard to do, but it doesn't necessarily sound good. This Tommy Emanuel sounds fantastic, and what he does is mind boggling. Simply unbelievable. And you can see that he's having a blast. He plays with a lot of soul as well as finger dexterity.

The guy this thread is about is very pleasant sounding. He is in the upper 1/10 of 1% of guitar players, but that Tommy Emanuel is one in 10 million.

Beakybird

As usual the thread went South, but this actually is a good thing, and I think now I can understand what you all mean, in terms of where your main interest in music comes from.

I certainly like arrangers because they can do what I can't, play strums/drums/bass/etc for me, but....

I really don't think that pushing some fill/OTS/patch change/vocalizer buttons in the right moment constitutes something more than mere "technical" skill (on lack of a better term), as opposed to musical skill.

On the other hand, what you play/sing/communicate to the audience when you are NOT pressing flashing buttons, is purely musical skill, and that can be as mediocre as mine, or in the same level as the one exhibited in the videos posted above.

See for example Michel Voncken, in this old video, demonstrating Tyros 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXeE2YZL8sE&p=131815C54A394153&playnext=1&index=79 especially in the songs beginning at 2:15 and 6:15 respectively.

I can easily learn to press the flashing buttons in the correct time and order, but actually playing the music even with half his skill is out of the question. This guy can also probably play the lone Steinway very well, thank you, which I can't, even if my life depended on it.

I have never played a gig on an arranger. I've never set up one registration. I pick a style, pick a right hand instrument, and play. Only for fun. I thought when I bought it I might use it more than I have, but it just didn't end up fitting into what I do. It's fun to have around, and does come in handy for rehearsals when I need to go over something and can just sit down to a keyboard with built in speakers and not have to hook anything up.
Actually when I first joined SZ I mostly visited the Roland JVXP and Fantom pages, as that's what I use and needed some help with. Then, when I decided I wanted to buy an arranger I came over here and noticed that this is where all the character resides.

Rory

Wowwwwww !!!!! i just wanted to say thank you so much for this link. This guy is outrageous !!!! Just stunning. Made me fall in love with the guitar again.

This is a really really good find. I have spent most of thge evening and a good portion of the morning looking at further clips of this guitarist. I am now very tired but extremely happy.

have a look at this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7-eonEcaLM

http://www.tommyemmanuel.com/

The question never WAS answered... Where ARE the virtuosi of the arranger?

Nowhere... (IMO)

Why would anyone capable of being called a virtuoso bother playing something that isn't primarily HIM playing? Even if he made his own styles, it's NOT him in control. No modern arranger makes MUSICAL decisions, only robotic, pre-programmed ones. No musician worth his salt wants to be recognized as the best 'button-pusher'. He wants what the audience hears to be recognizably HIM, and nothing else. Everything else dilutes the impact.

I am afraid we tend to concentrate on non-musical aspects of the arranger... Songbooks, MP3 players, video output, rubbish like that. I honestly can hardly think of a single feature added to an arranger in the last few years that made it more MUSICAL. I still cringe when I hear the utter destroying of musical basslines by the arranger's inability to wrap notes intelligently, or the jackrabbit jumping around of chords, rather than smooth voice leading.

Musicians are SO, so much better than arrangers, in just about every way. It is no wonder that no one worthy of his salt will use one for anything other than crass commercial reasons. We sit around here and post URL after URL of amazing MUSICIANS, and gasp in wonder. But what we REALLY need to do is ask ourselves why we are playing arrangers that never get even a MILE close to what these people can do, and why we are so satisfied with them, anyway...

They suck!

Me, I want an arranger that has a heart, an arranger that is MUSICAL, that spends less time on features for people that CAN'T play, and has more of them for people that CAN. I want an arranger that does what GREAT players do, and not what very average robots do...

I believe that the technology already exists capable of doing this. But, unfortunately, the majority of the market for arrangers wouldn't recognize correct voice leading if it bit them on the behind! But they SURE know a good karaoke readout when they see one!

Maybe, one day, if the manufacturers concentrate on making features that help REAL musicians, rather than bedroom jockeys and one-finger noodlers, we may FINALLY see someone who IS a virtuoso choose to play an arranger.

But not until...

(BTW... long enough for you, Donny?:0 )

Diki is slowly coming back.




That would be the much debated PRO arranger. Maybe it will happen sometime.

You really dont know much about creativity at all Diki. Its not the instrument, its the limitation in terms of imagination and creativity of the player that is stalling arranger keyboards from being used as the go to keyboard instrument instead of the hobbyists instrument that it is currently.

If any musician spent 6-8 hours a day on any instrument including an arranger i know they would come up with inovative ways of using it that would blow your socks off. But unfortunately the arranger has been pigeon holed into purely a one man band instrument (which is certainly not its sole purpose) or a hobbyists instrument which again the top of the range arrangers are much more than that. All it needs is someone to genuinely get under the hood and discover how its unique features could be utilised in moden music. But it wont happen anytrime soon because the people that own arrangers change them everytime a new one comes out every 2-3 years never appreciating what they had or fully understanding what could have been done with their existing keyboard.

we dont need anymore bangs and whistle on our arrangers. We just ned to know how to use the arsenal we already have appropriately

While I agree that it�s the player that makes the biggest difference, different instruments are made for different users, and the Arranger keyboard has ALWAYS without EXCEPTION, been designed for the Home Hobby Player NOT the Professional Player, therefore they will always keep having features incorporated to make the home player sound great with minimal effort.
Remember a lot of Hobby players already have a day job, or are retired and want to do things they couldn�t do when they were working, consequently they do not have time to practice as a Professional would.
So if you�re waiting for features suitable for a Professional to be incorporated into an Arranger keyboard, then you will have a very, very, very long wait, as you are a miniscule part of the Arranger market.
You may not like it, but that�s the facts.
So Just Enjoy Whatever You Play

Bill

Vacation Over!!

http://www.surflight.org/concerts.htm

Tommy Emanuel in concert on the Jersey shore in a few weeks!

this guy is just off the charts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hb7DYgcwSo

The reason why arranger players struggle to get to this level of creativity is because they are always looking for the next technological break through in keyboards rather than just loving making music and developing their skills to make even greater music. this guy loves making music and it is clear that he gets a greater kick out of the music than even his audiebce.

Right on, Spalding. No matter what most may post here, it seems they're more into new gear than into making music. They'll start debating the Tyros 5 as soon as the T4 is out. Well, first the forum goes into a slump till they hear a new board is coming out. Then speculation season starts.

As for me, I am not a technically inclined person so all these new gadgets don't mean much to me. I prefer to hit the ON-button and just play. Are no SA voices or whatever they're called elsewhere going to turn me into a better player.

To me an arranger is a make-believe instrument. It may sound great to a number of people but will never compare to the real instruments it's trying to emulate. Neither will it impress a guitar player, trumpet player, drummer, etc. The complexities of a guitar, trumpet, violin, etc. can and never will be emulated on a keyboard. It's simply impossible. So far the B3 has never been really successfully cloned and shouldn't that be easier than a guitar, trumpet or violin? So it all comes down to make-believe. Close to some ears but light years away from the real thing. There'll never be a philharmonic arranger keyboard orchestra.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

NO INSTRUMENT HAS HEART! It's the player that has heart, and I really don't give a damned what he or she plays, just as long as they pour their heart and soul into each and every song they perform. It can be an arranger keyboard, guitar, mandolin, violin, piano, you name it--it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference what instrument he or she plays. I've heard some incredible players in my life, many of which have been trained by the best institutions of music. Some performers are incredible readers, they can play any song from sheet music, and it is flawless. I've heard others that cannot read a note, play the same song using their instrument of choice, including an arranger keyboard, and produce a masterpiece that opens your soul and brings tears to your eyes. As stated many times in the past--IT'S THE PLAYER--NOT THE INSTRUMENT!

Gary

Great Post Gary and so true!

Let me be a little clearer, then... when you play an instrument that 99% of what the audience hears is NOT YOU....

What kind of heart can you put into that remaining 1%?

Having to play with an ignoramus robot will suck the life out of you every time. There is so little, if ANY inspiring arranger music because the backings themselves lack inspiration. This is why there's such a move towards audio playing arrangers. Obviously, MIDI playing arrangers have hit their limits, at least as far as what the manufacturers are WILLING to put in them (I still believe there is HUGE room for improvement without going to audio, but no manufacturer is taking it seriously). Sadly, of course, while the audio playing arranger SOUNDS better, it lacks any flexibility at all, and any ease of customizing the styles to suit you (a loop is a loop, is a loop), and, to be honest, STILL doesn't really address the issue of intelligent wrap-around, or voice leading or just plain robot stupidity.

And, sorry, but if there WERE anything going on creatively in the arranger world, we would have all heard it by now. You can try to lecture me all you want, spalding, but you have to provide at least SOME example to make your position. Or you can as easily take the position that banging two rocks together could be CALLED 'creative'... but no-one wants to listen to it! Perhaps you can explain, if it is ENTIRELY in the hands of the player, why NO creative musician plays an arranger..?

Personally, I believe that any creative musician wants to work with OTHER creative musicians, not a robot.

You may feel differently, though....

YEP! I totally disagree.

Good to see you posting again,

Gary

I agree Gary.........don't let the so called purists get to you...just bahahahahahaha all teh way to the bank

There are always those that disagree just because they hold a grudge...

Diki makes some very good points and a lot of sense.

Let me see (hear) how expressive or creative one can be playing along a style vs. a drummer.

Now who said that playing a B3 is boring because it's always the same? And playing along a style is not always the same?

Thank goodness it's the purists that keep on making good music. Thank goodness it's the purists that play and explore instruments in ways never though possible or imaginable. If that's not being creative than what is? Thank goodness that to a purist it's all about music first. Purists have probably the most loyal fans one can wish for.

So where's the Jimmy Smith or Tommy Emmanuel of the arranger keyboard?

Diki, I'm glad you're back. At least I mean it.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-29-2010).]

Was it a Maton Russ? They have been making both electric and acoustic guitars in Australia for many many years.

http://www.maton.com.au/

sorry double post



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 08-30-2010).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spalding1968:
[B]as usual Diki you miss the point completely.

Just as an example . Jordan Rudess has a korg oasys keyboard. The manufacturer put on it stock sounds and arpegiators for everyone to use as thy choose. But do most players use the Oasys the way he does ? He uses the instrument in an almost completly inovative way configuring the keyboard to trigger samples as he plays complex left and right hand melodies . He samples his own sounds and creates patterns that accompany the songs he plays. The sounds that he has been given in the intrument are just the basic palet that he then tears apart and reconstructs to his tastes .

If you or anyone were to think outside of the suggestions that the manufacturer has given in terms of the basic pallet of styles and sounds and chord variations provided on an arranger keyboard and actually spend 6-8 hours a day playing the instrument and exploring how you could apply the technology musically and being creative with the registrations and live performance tools available to you , perhaps even programming your own styles on the instrument you could not fail become expert and indeed a virtuoso on an arranger keyboard or any other electronic instrument.

You confuse the reality of what is now with what could be ! Before the finger style playing of the guitar that has emerged over the last 30 years or so musicians did not imagine that a simple guitar could be used the way it is being used now . But some musicians who just could not and would not be limited by what they saw and heard from other people and had a hunger for more developed inovative and ceatives ways to make that instrument produce new sounds and new ways of creating sound in a musical and skilled way. i gaurantee you that in another 30 years someone else will develope another technique or style on the same guitar. What i am saying is that i foresee some musician who gets a hold of an arranger and who sees the potential of the instrument and is willing to commit to the instrument will do stuff with it that both you and i and even the manufacture did not foresee .

The people demonstrating arrangers and playing them currently for their own reasons work within the suggestions given to them from the manufacturers but thats not because of the limitations of the instrument.
http://www.piens.com/movies.

Click on the Tyros 3 demo and imagine what you could do with an arranger if you opened your mind.

Hi Spalding
The question you have to ask is;
Why would anyone bother to get stuck into a pre-set instrument with limited capabilities, (Effectively what an Arranger Keyboard is) when there are Workstations and other instruments out there that will allow them to do a 1000 times more than the typical Arranger, with only a fraction of the effort.
The answer is;
They wouldn�t

As I have said previously, the Arranger keyboard was designed solely for the Home Hobby player, (An Arranger keyboard is just a spin off from the easy play organs of the 70s & 80s) who has little time to practice, but enjoys pressing a few buttons to transport themselves into another world, so as to get away from all the stresses in life. (Going in-depth is the last thing on their minds)

Yamaha is the leader here, for the simple reason it�s easy to operate, and has a massive style and pre-set database. (Whatever you want to play, the chances are there is a style/Pre-set already out there)

As I said before, you may not like the above, but those I am afraid are the facts.
Regards

Bill

Igor Presnyakov is really good eh?

Sorry, spalding, but tossing out what someone creative did on one of the world's most expensive WORKSTATIONS is hardly proof that there is anyone even SLIGHTLY interested in creativity on an arranger.
Were you to toss out a couple of names like Rudess (who I adore, by the way) and links to their work on an arranger, I would start to take the tiniest notice of what you have to say. But after YEARS of almost the same apologia for arrangers (VST based or otherwise) with not ONE example of anything creative, I'm sorry, but your argument comes over as mere wishful thinking, rather than based on FACT.

Let's put it this way... My arguments posits that there are no really creative people playing arrangers, and I back it up with the complete dearth of creative arranger music available. YOUR argument posits that the ARE creative people using the arranger, and you back it up with...

NOTHING

BTW, the factory demos for Yamaha are sequenced, NOT arranger play. Just as most manufacturers do. And we've ALL seen just how terrible most live arranger demos are, at even getting a normal, gig-ready performance, let alone something that might pass as 'creative'. If you use an arranger as a basic workstation for a sequencing project, does that somehow make the ARRANGER a 'creative' instrument?

Look at what we all look at and listen to on this forum, lately... guitarists! Singers! Basically, players of REAL instruments with a thousand times the expressive potential of an electronic arranger. Why do we go all ga-ga over these? Because they achieve a level of expressiveness impossible on these limited, sample-based keyboards with negligible sample depth or modulation possibilities.

You can pull more depth of expression and tonal possibilities out of a cheap guitar than you can pull from the best arranger in the world. The same note can be played in a myriad of fashions, no two people playing the same guitar ever make it sound the same, let alone play the same parts on it. But an arranger... Who, on earth, can even make it SOUND different?

Here's the bottom line... sure, you COULD use an arranger as a jumping off point for something utterly unique... But why WOULD you, when doing the same thing on a TOTL WS offers SO MUCH MORE possibilities and capabilities? Who chooses a crippled broken tool to create on, when better tools exist (at lower prices, too)?

Until I HEAR all this wellspring of creativity you THINK exists, I'm afraid I'm going to stick to my opinion...

Diki thank you for putting down all arranger KB players....I'm sure you gained a few more fans ....NOT!!

For telling the truth? Still a FAN, Diki!

Make-believe isn't the real thing and never will be.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

truth? hahahahahah...you guys all belong together....enjoy each other another
Hi-Jacking well done!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-30-2010).]

Feel like a big boy now, perdente?

By the way, you really should learn English.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Poc...e/9781440692253

Wang ba dan!



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Bo pen nyang.

Don't like the truth?

That your English sucks?

By the way, you shouldn't delete your posts. I know it's an addiction of yours but it's so unbecoming on a forum.

Now leave me alone.

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Bo pen nyang.

fellas we can disagree without fighting. They say necessity is the mother of invention. When someone aqcuires an arranger keyboard and uses it as their sole instrument (possibly because they cannot afford to trade up ) then you will see what can be done with an arranger.

Right now you think like wealthy westerners who can and do change keyboards at the drop of a hat and who have access at a whim to any musical instruments you want. Not everyone is like that . My point is theorectical because most of you dont hold onto your instrument even long enough to explore the possibilities. But if you had no choice then you would see what i see.

and Diki so that you dont miss the point again . I said before 'All it needs is someone to genuinely get under the hood and discover how its unique features could be utilised in modern music. But it wont happen anytime soon because the people that own arrangers change them everytime a new one comes out every 2-3 years never appreciating what they had or fully understanding what could have been done with their existing keyboard. '

If you did not have th choice you curently have , you would understand my point.

Anyway i will leave it at that. A closed mind is such a waste.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 08-30-2010).]

Let's see, this thread was about guitar. Then, someone posted this:

Although all these people are surly great guitar players for a reason in the own right and should be appreciated as such....But, being a professional arranger
Kb artist myself...I'd really prefer watching GREAT Arranger KB players so I can absorb and learn from them.....anyone want to post some?

That is what started the discussion of "Great Arranger" players. Who posted that? Could it be the same person who now speaks about this thread being hijacked?

.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-31-2010).]

How childish!

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Bo pen nyang.

Nigel, I think it was a Maton. He let me play one for a few moments when he was here in Lexington (he ate at the restaurant I was playing). It was kind of like the original Selmer Mckafee I played....resonance forever!


Russ

Interesting Russ....any more to the story?

Tommy is off the hook for sure.

Not much to tell, Donny. He was with the people from the Woodsongs Old Time Hour...the syndicated show he had just done here in town. I was on a break in the back parking lot. He asked what guitar I was playing and told me what he used. He said he had about 10 of this brand. He had one in the van they were in, and he took it out to show. I played a few notes on it (beat to hell...it was the one you see on YouTube he does lots of percussion on).

Appeared to be a super nice guy in the 5 minutes I visited with him, as is the case with most really talented musicians I've met in my lifetime.


Russ

started a new thread

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 08-31-2010).]

Kool Russ.....it would of been nice to jam for a bit with him too eh?....great story thanx

Sorry, spalding, but as one of the few here that DO hold onto an arranger for MANY, many years (quite possibly longer than perhaps YOUR current arranger), I am in perhaps a better position than you care to admit to judge whether an arranger holds up as a truly creative tool. Yes, I do use my G70 on recording projects, and as my primary tool for ALL live playing, whether with a full band or smaller ensembles. but I have to admit that, as a wellspring of creativity, as a source of inspiration, it falls woefully short compared to say my Kurzweil, or my Triton, or a well crafted set of VSTi's.

If one takes the position that 'creativity' is the desire to create something NEW, arrangers, with their almost TOTAL emphasis on recreating music that is already in existence, their almost total focus on sounds well-worn and their inability to sculpt and shape utterly new sounds (or at least, their inability to match the creative possibilities that TOTL WS's offer) don't really come CLOSE to what other instruments offer for this task.

One could as easily say that the kazoo is as 'creative' an instrument as the arranger is. That no-one has YET achieved this creativity, by your own logic, is no proof that the kazoo is a limited instrument.

That some are getting outraged about my opinion about the general level of creative possibility of this instrument type is proof that some are FAR too invested in their particular tool of choice... Personally, I don't consider that I am an arranger player. Neither am I a WS player. Or a clone-wheel player, or a synth player, or a pianist. I AM A KEYBOARD PLAYER. Each has its' strengths AND weaknesses (no matter how hard some choose to deny that). Some are better at one task, some at another, some are weaker at a particular area. But criticizing the instrument is NOT criticizing the player.

And yes, spalding, you are right... should someone CHOOSE to use the lesser tool as a conduit for their creativity, and show great skill, then there really IS no reason why it COULDN'T be a very creative tool. But so can a kazoo player. That few have even TRIED, let alone succeeded, as far as I am concerned, merely shows that MOST people have got more sense than to pick a crippled tool for a difficult task.

I listen to arranger playback all the time. From my own instrument, to all the web examples I can find. And you know what? Every single machine part I hear, with perhaps the possible exception of the guitar parts (and to a lesser extent, the drums), I go 'I could play that MUCH better!'. Of course, in a realtime environment, I CAN'T play them all, so I have to tolerate them (or play in a live band, which has been my choice for the last couple of years), but the fact that little of it impresses in the slightest compared to a REAL player (at least, a real GOOD player!) shows us just how far this instrument has to go before it even lives up to the task it IS supposed to do.

Even the manufacturers themselves seem to go out of their way to cripple these instruments as a tool for creativity, hobbling them with small, undersized keyboards, cheap tacky keybeds, and inferior sound systems. Not to mention a total emphasis on tying up your LH with the onerous, often repetitive task of simply inputting chord information. I mean, c'mon! What could be more 'creative' than freeing yourself from simple chord entry and allowing you FULL use of both hands?

That the only live tool to accomplish this isn't even on most players' radar of wanted features shows how much we value 'creativity'!

Fact is, I bet I can find something really creative on a kazoo off the web faster than you can find ANYONE doing really creative music on the arranger. And that's all the proof I need...

Watched Igor play Harrison's "While My Guitar Gently Weeps".

I've really gotten into that song recently...especially the version that Kenny Rankin did...as a slow ballad. There's a live version out there with Brian Bromberg playing upright that ranks as one of the best acoustic pieces/vocals I've ever seen.

Good find on Igor!

Russ