I can't wait for this exciting, highly-skilled kazoo player that Diki is going to post a link to.

I watched all three videos to the end--they were great. I wish I could understand enough French so I could follow the dialog better.

Thanks,

Gary

then i give up Bill. The demos showcase what the instrumnent is capable of in competant hands out of the box apart from some of the samples that were used in the demo which anyone else could also aquire. What could it sound like if you really got under the hood ?

Did you see the remix of Michael Jacksons 'bad' which was done seconds ? Can you imagine how easy it would be to take a track and try out hundreds of different variations and remixes in a fraction of the time it would take to reprogramme a workstation ?????

Actually i see the problem.... it seems for some. even the little ability it takes to imagine is too much of a stretch.

The one thing an arranger or any instrument cant do is help musicians imagine possibilities...

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-02-2010).]

Hi Spalding
I am not saying it wasn’t a pleasurable performance, it was, but it was not impressive, nothing stood out, it’s just a typical performance that can been heard any day of the week in any club that features keyboards. (There is a stack of them out there)

Impressive is when a performance blows my socks off, (And believe me I have heard some really jaw dropping Arranger performances over the years) not what you can hear any day of the week.

It also still doesn’t alter the fact though that the Arranger has limited capabilities compared to Workstations etc., for the simple reason that they are designed for totally different markets. (Arranger = Home, Workstation = Pro)

Example: I could drive all the way from John O Groats to the very tip of Italy; the car could easily do it. But “WHY” when I could jump on a plane and be there in a fraction of the time, and have more free time to do what I want.

Sorry to say, but you obviously haven’t heard what arrangers can do in the hands of skilled players, (At least not if you think that performance was impressive) but there still limited in comparison to instruments designed for Pro users.
Regards

Bill

show me a comparable demo on a workstation where a song could be remixed in minutes.....

Hi Spalding
Just do a YouTube for Workstation demos, as there are millions out there, just choose which songs you want. (Same with software)
Regards

Bill

The lack of instructional material with ALL manufacturers is a major downfall for them all...most time you have to learn it on your own or from others in some way......they don't want people to learn more about a unit because then they wont buy the next greatest thing they release.....time after time!
simple marketing strategy 101 taking YOUR Money is all that matter

None so blind as those that won't see...?

If there were anything for me to see, I would see it. But there ISN'T. On a forum FULL of dedicated, passionate arranger players, nothing of any originality. How about we come up with something ourselves, before we go making such blanket statements..?

One might as easily say that all of us could fly like Superman. After all, if one takes away the need for any proof whatsoever, then any ridiculous statement can be adhered to like a religion. I mean, just because no-one HAS flown like Superman, doesn't mean it can't be done, can it? No, only your practical experience can indicate that you CAN'T fly like Superman (although there are many that try, fatally, every year!).

You see, expecting someone ELSE to prove your fantasy (haven't heard anything by YOU, that's for sure!), and then blaming everyone else for not believing you when no-one does is delusional, IMO...

Look, before this gets too far, I agree... Sit Jordan down in front of a PA2, and you might get something quite similar to this. But, as I pointed out at the beginning, is this 'creative'? Or is it, as arrangers are DESIGNED to be, merely imitative? Listen to the vast majority of what Jordan plays, and tell me if it could be done as well with an arranger? For starters, Jordan plays in a BAND... He has no NEED for a canned band, especially as none exists that is even a pale shadow of the band he DOES play in. Do you honestly think he disrespects his REAL guitarist in a concert by hacking out a lame imitation of a real guitarist? Let alone replace him completely by a MACHINE?

Anyway, I contend that someone, somewhere, will make us ashamed to be keyboard players by being SO creative on the kazoo we all just pack up and go home with our heads between our knees. And, of course, as long as I NEVER have to provide any proof of this statement, it is EQUALLY as valid as your 'defense' of the arranger... So, everybody rush out and buy a kazoo. Be a part of the soon to happen kazoo renaissance. The most creative instrument on the planet ever... (so long as someone figures out HOW )

Your analiogies and examples just get more and more outlandish Diki. first the Kazoo player and now flying like superman ?????

Let me ask you some very simple questions.

Can you play a keyboard Diki ? An arranger is a keyboard so if you can play a keyboard well you can play an arranger well just as abasic keyboard, no drums bass or accompamimnet right ? Can you sequence songs on a keyboard well ? I mean actually create something original one track at a time or dunp a style track into a sequencer, ar a performance track if its a motif and then edit that track to make it your own, edit the notes, velocity, quantize cut copy paste etc ? Well guess what, you can sequence full songs from the ground up on an arranger in a very similar way.

Are you any good at sound design Diki? You can design sounds on an arranger, sounds even you have not imagined yet.or do you doubt that too ?

Can you create and edit samples on a workstation ? well in arrangers like the PA range you can also do that too.

So what is left to be as creative musically as you like if not your imagination Diki ????

You act like the basic tools that most musicians who produce electronic music via a keyboard is absent on the top line arrangers. Go on you tube and watch people make music on their keyboard and tell me what they are doing different to what i have just described ? whether they do it on board a keyboard or using a computer based product.

The tools are all there just like they are on a work station. All we are talking about is different work flows to achieve the same ends.

Your last statement about Jordan shows how tunnel visioned but i would argue blind you are because of your own prejudice. Jordan does use canned music in his live sets. He spends huge amount of time programming the keyboard to produce triggered synced samples along with his live playing !! They may not be guitars or styles in the way you understand styles to be but they are preprogrammed riffs and mini sequences in a live performance.

And he also plays straight keyboard with sounds he designed either on the keyboard or off the keyboard and loadsthe samples he needs on the keyboard. Can that be done with an arranger ? How many samples do you need for a live performance ?

The PA2X can hold 256MB of Ram . The Motif XS entire sounds are held entirely on 712MB of Rom so potentially how many sounds could you carry into a live performance with a PA arranger and use it just like a straight keyboard ?

The example i posted was of Jordan using a preprogrammed spanish guitar sample looped which followed the chords he held in his left hand. it was similar to arranger style. How well could an arrager mimic a workstation in live use ?

You only see what you want to see. You see canned styles and not the keyboard and the content you could input just as Jordan did. You see limitations instead possibilities. I posted up demos of the T3 being used creatively as a workstation remixing current chart songs (current a year ago) that were probably all created on straight up workstations in the first place or computer based setups, remixed in seconds libve on an arranger .

The creative possibilities are just endless if you could see them in your imagination first.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-02-2010).]

So what WS is Jordan using in the demo?

Lucky

i think its a kurzweil K600