jordan rudess using his keyboard like an arranger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aII0De0ek9k

Notice his left hand holding chords that trigger the guitar strumming that follows his chords and trigger the vocal programme.

Changing right hands sounds just like a registration or one touch setting......

Is it beyond anyones imagination to see a performance like this being done on a true arranger with some moderate tweeking ......

Just needs an open mind.

WOW! Now that's incredible playing. Several years ago there was a guy who frequently posted on the PSR-Tutorial by the name of Julio who played Flamenco guitar on his PSR-2000. He utilized a similar style of playing and accessing the styles. I'll see if I can dig some of his midi files out of the archives and post the links.

Thanks for a wonderful link,

Gary

But is this 'creative', or is it 'imitative'?

I tend towards the latter. It's a very good imitation of an OK guitarist, but you are all currently going ga-ga over a couple of REALLY good guitarists. Does this deserve to be up there in terms of creativity..?

Plus, has anyone bothered to ask the question of why Jordan chooses to do this on a WS, rather than picking an arranger to do it on? Maybe he hasn't heard about how creative the arranger could be, IF someone like him were playing one?

But, then again, he was a Korg endorser during the Oasys days. Surely at that time he would have had the opportunity to play the PA series..? Why is he doing this on a WS?

Spalding.....fantastic...thank you for the link..AWESOME!! really enjoyed it.

you still missing the point dikki ??????? I guess there are none so blind as those that choose not to see......

It could not be any clearer. The arranger keyboard is not the limitation. It is the creativity and imagination of the player.

Jordan probably has never even touched an arranger keyboard. He is an endorser of some korg products as he has also endorsed roland and kurzweil. That does not mean that he has played or had a hand in every product from the respective manufacturers range. But i am confident that if he got under the hood of an arranger for solo performances like this clip, we would not even be discussing this point.

Simply take the point. What Jordan did if we had the chops could be replicated on an arranger keyboard and whats more because of the deeper chordal possibilities on an arranger, and the quicker registarion/one touch settings , the techniques Jordan used could be applied to thousands of different performances with out the need to preprogramme functions as he had to do on his workstation to mimic what an arranger does as bread and butter functions.

Jordan was clearly using his work station as a mock up arranger.

The guitarists were certainly creative within the limitations of the instrument they used. An arranger almost has limitless possibilities and therefore its impossible to compare the level of creativity that could be achivied using one compared to a guitar player using everything they can within the limitations of wood and string to express themselves. its different types of creativity. Not necessarily different levels.

But what is clear is that if a highly dedicated and talented musician works within the limitation of whatever instrument they own, great things can happen.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 08-31-2010).]

Hi Spalding
Nobody is denying that if you spent enough time and had creative talent that you could make great music on an arranger, the questions is “Why” when there are so many instruments out there better suited to the job.

The truth is; the Arranger is and always has been designed to allow one person to emulate Orchestras, Big Bands etc., in a domestic environment with minimal work, nothing more, nothing less. (That pros can make a living with them just shows how versatile they are)
Regards

Bill

why ?????? Because there are a whole lot of budding songwriters/performers/musicians out there looking for a hardware solution that can do it all. An arranger (especially the Korg range)can pretty much do it all more readily than a pure breed workstation can. In terms of live versatile performance a workstation is pretty limited compared to an arranger. Go on motifator and search how many threads are about why the XS does not have tyros features and sounds or how appreciative even pro musicians are about the new inbuilt styles, sorry 'Arps' that the motif has with intros and endings that they can quickly copy and edit to their own tastes into a sequencer or convert into their own arp, but of course they are not really styles are they otherwise God forbid it might be similar to an arranger ......


I think King Frog mentioned at one point that he only bought the tyros for the fact that he could use the styles in his studio(i hope i have not misqouted you Kingfrog)

From memory the motif range went from no arps in the motif clasic to over 6000 in the motif XS including drum groves, bass lines and and guitar tracks.

now the Fantom G has them and korg have the Karma .

All i am suggesting and it is only a suggestion, is that an arranger in fact could be the ideal instrument for most musicians if they used just a little imagination .

watch this clip all the way through and forget that its an arranger you are litening to.
http://www.sud-claviers.com/index.php/2008/10/26/171-concert-tyros3

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-01-2010).]

Hi Spalding
I watched it all through, but what am I supposed to be looking for that is so fantastic, it’s just a typical arranger demo you get from dealers and manufactures road shows all over Europe.
Curious

Bill

NAH!

Can't wait for martin, Barrtmann & Voncken to showcase the T4 !!!

I can't wait for this exciting, highly-skilled kazoo player that Diki is going to post a link to.

I watched all three videos to the end--they were great. I wish I could understand enough French so I could follow the dialog better.

Thanks,

Gary

then i give up Bill. The demos showcase what the instrumnent is capable of in competant hands out of the box apart from some of the samples that were used in the demo which anyone else could also aquire. What could it sound like if you really got under the hood ?

Did you see the remix of Michael Jacksons 'bad' which was done seconds ? Can you imagine how easy it would be to take a track and try out hundreds of different variations and remixes in a fraction of the time it would take to reprogramme a workstation ?????

Actually i see the problem.... it seems for some. even the little ability it takes to imagine is too much of a stretch.

The one thing an arranger or any instrument cant do is help musicians imagine possibilities...

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-02-2010).]

Hi Spalding
I am not saying it wasn’t a pleasurable performance, it was, but it was not impressive, nothing stood out, it’s just a typical performance that can been heard any day of the week in any club that features keyboards. (There is a stack of them out there)

Impressive is when a performance blows my socks off, (And believe me I have heard some really jaw dropping Arranger performances over the years) not what you can hear any day of the week.

It also still doesn’t alter the fact though that the Arranger has limited capabilities compared to Workstations etc., for the simple reason that they are designed for totally different markets. (Arranger = Home, Workstation = Pro)

Example: I could drive all the way from John O Groats to the very tip of Italy; the car could easily do it. But “WHY” when I could jump on a plane and be there in a fraction of the time, and have more free time to do what I want.

Sorry to say, but you obviously haven’t heard what arrangers can do in the hands of skilled players, (At least not if you think that performance was impressive) but there still limited in comparison to instruments designed for Pro users.
Regards

Bill

show me a comparable demo on a workstation where a song could be remixed in minutes.....

Hi Spalding
Just do a YouTube for Workstation demos, as there are millions out there, just choose which songs you want. (Same with software)
Regards

Bill

The lack of instructional material with ALL manufacturers is a major downfall for them all...most time you have to learn it on your own or from others in some way......they don't want people to learn more about a unit because then they wont buy the next greatest thing they release.....time after time!
simple marketing strategy 101 taking YOUR Money is all that matter

None so blind as those that won't see...?

If there were anything for me to see, I would see it. But there ISN'T. On a forum FULL of dedicated, passionate arranger players, nothing of any originality. How about we come up with something ourselves, before we go making such blanket statements..?

One might as easily say that all of us could fly like Superman. After all, if one takes away the need for any proof whatsoever, then any ridiculous statement can be adhered to like a religion. I mean, just because no-one HAS flown like Superman, doesn't mean it can't be done, can it? No, only your practical experience can indicate that you CAN'T fly like Superman (although there are many that try, fatally, every year!).

You see, expecting someone ELSE to prove your fantasy (haven't heard anything by YOU, that's for sure!), and then blaming everyone else for not believing you when no-one does is delusional, IMO...

Look, before this gets too far, I agree... Sit Jordan down in front of a PA2, and you might get something quite similar to this. But, as I pointed out at the beginning, is this 'creative'? Or is it, as arrangers are DESIGNED to be, merely imitative? Listen to the vast majority of what Jordan plays, and tell me if it could be done as well with an arranger? For starters, Jordan plays in a BAND... He has no NEED for a canned band, especially as none exists that is even a pale shadow of the band he DOES play in. Do you honestly think he disrespects his REAL guitarist in a concert by hacking out a lame imitation of a real guitarist? Let alone replace him completely by a MACHINE?

Anyway, I contend that someone, somewhere, will make us ashamed to be keyboard players by being SO creative on the kazoo we all just pack up and go home with our heads between our knees. And, of course, as long as I NEVER have to provide any proof of this statement, it is EQUALLY as valid as your 'defense' of the arranger... So, everybody rush out and buy a kazoo. Be a part of the soon to happen kazoo renaissance. The most creative instrument on the planet ever... (so long as someone figures out HOW )

Your analiogies and examples just get more and more outlandish Diki. first the Kazoo player and now flying like superman ?????

Let me ask you some very simple questions.

Can you play a keyboard Diki ? An arranger is a keyboard so if you can play a keyboard well you can play an arranger well just as abasic keyboard, no drums bass or accompamimnet right ? Can you sequence songs on a keyboard well ? I mean actually create something original one track at a time or dunp a style track into a sequencer, ar a performance track if its a motif and then edit that track to make it your own, edit the notes, velocity, quantize cut copy paste etc ? Well guess what, you can sequence full songs from the ground up on an arranger in a very similar way.

Are you any good at sound design Diki? You can design sounds on an arranger, sounds even you have not imagined yet.or do you doubt that too ?

Can you create and edit samples on a workstation ? well in arrangers like the PA range you can also do that too.

So what is left to be as creative musically as you like if not your imagination Diki ????

You act like the basic tools that most musicians who produce electronic music via a keyboard is absent on the top line arrangers. Go on you tube and watch people make music on their keyboard and tell me what they are doing different to what i have just described ? whether they do it on board a keyboard or using a computer based product.

The tools are all there just like they are on a work station. All we are talking about is different work flows to achieve the same ends.

Your last statement about Jordan shows how tunnel visioned but i would argue blind you are because of your own prejudice. Jordan does use canned music in his live sets. He spends huge amount of time programming the keyboard to produce triggered synced samples along with his live playing !! They may not be guitars or styles in the way you understand styles to be but they are preprogrammed riffs and mini sequences in a live performance.

And he also plays straight keyboard with sounds he designed either on the keyboard or off the keyboard and loadsthe samples he needs on the keyboard. Can that be done with an arranger ? How many samples do you need for a live performance ?

The PA2X can hold 256MB of Ram . The Motif XS entire sounds are held entirely on 712MB of Rom so potentially how many sounds could you carry into a live performance with a PA arranger and use it just like a straight keyboard ?

The example i posted was of Jordan using a preprogrammed spanish guitar sample looped which followed the chords he held in his left hand. it was similar to arranger style. How well could an arrager mimic a workstation in live use ?

You only see what you want to see. You see canned styles and not the keyboard and the content you could input just as Jordan did. You see limitations instead possibilities. I posted up demos of the T3 being used creatively as a workstation remixing current chart songs (current a year ago) that were probably all created on straight up workstations in the first place or computer based setups, remixed in seconds libve on an arranger .

The creative possibilities are just endless if you could see them in your imagination first.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-02-2010).]

So what WS is Jordan using in the demo?

Lucky

i think its a kurzweil K600

Hi Spalding
Compare the specification of a Workstation and an Arranger, and you will find that the Workstation has more real time controls for on the fly use when playing live, whereas the Arranger is pretty much a pre-set instrument.

Home users want something easy to play, (Instant gratification) and real –time controls and in-depth editing have little relevance for most of them.
Pro users want as many real time controls and on the fly editing as possible, so that they can let their imagination run wild, and really spice up a live performance.

As you can see from the above, Arrangers and Workstations are completely different animals, and while there will always be some similarities, one cannot replace the other. (There is no one size fits all)

Regards

Bill

Bill there is no denying they are different instruments. One can play backing accompaniments that follow your chords and can remix songs instantly the other cannot. i think that just about covers it ! (i am being cheeky mate dont get offended but in essence thats the truth if you hav any creative juices at all)

I am not making any point about the features that are different. I am making the point about the features that are common to the making of pretty much any keyboard based music you can imagine, and the features that are present that lend themselves to all kinds of possibilities for musicians who want to make music . Unfortunately i am starting to believe that a distinction should be made between a musician and someone that simply collects the next best keyboard and braggs about features they dont even know how to use fully in a musical sense, just bigger ram, more filters, more effects etc and never understand how it any of those features can be fully utilised musically which unfortunately is a real problem .

In fact it is the dominant factor that prevents many from using their imagination even to consider possible uses of the tools they already have both in the arranger and workstation world

look at this old demo of the G70 done by this older fella who has used his skills and knowldge of the instrument to put together this brilliant demo.

You cannot tell me , honest you cant :-) that even by todays standards this instrument does not have limitless possibilities ..

I only discovered this demo this morning. Roland would have sold a boat load more G70's if they had used this demo instead of the american ones on the roland site.

tell me what you think
http://www.sud-claviers.com/index.php/2008/09/17/168-g-70

thanks for debating with me everyone that joined in.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-03-2010).]

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-03-2010).]

Excellent Demo for two reasons the G70 is an awesome sounding arranger in the hands of a professional.. & secondly this guy is a fantastic player......no wonder Roland is in no rush to release a new TOTL arranger the G70 still sounds fantastic..!!!
No need for an Audya for him.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-03-2010).]

That was an excellent G-70 demo, Spalding, and certainly showcases the power and scope of the instrument.

First time I saw it as well.

Ian

PS...I can get much more done and done far more quickly using an arranger as opposed to a workstation.

I've been watching this thread but haven't posted until now, because I finally took a look at the OP's video link of Jordon Rudess.

First, spalding1968, of course that could be done on pretty much any arranger, sans the goofy vocal stuff going on, unless the arranger was one of the more higher end units with sampling capabilities. Nothing special about it at all other than it was simply annoying. "Slow down and play some meaningful notes" is what was going through my mind the whole time. But I know that wasn't your point of posting so sorry.

Second, Diki, imitative? I understand what you are saying, but really; did you ever hear a harmonica bend notes in such a way? Not possible. Not to mention the only thing worse than a sax sound from a keyboard is a harmonica sound (from a keyboard or otherwise for that matter)

Finally, some people are just to hard-headed, blind to anything they don't own, etc. to be open minded about alternatives. Pity really, because there are some hybrid workstation/arranger instruments out there that could definitely be advantageous to certain musicians.

yeah WDMcM. Rudess is definately an acquired taste for sure ! But he might grow on you as he did me. As you have rightly said , what he did could be done on prety much any arranger and better with the sound pallet for real world instruments that arrangers have today. I know you get the point i have been trying to make.


Sorry could not help myself.

One more demo of thbe roland VA7

How did Roland manage to hide these incredible demos ????
http://www.sud-claviers.com/index.php/2007/06/02/18-roland-va-76

and before you shell out for tjhe Tyros 4 have a listen to the Tyros 2 in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing.
http://www.sud-claviers.com/index.php/2009/09/04/9-tyros-le-forum
[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-03-2010).]

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-03-2010).]

OK, Question...what does an arranger have that a Kurzweil K2600X has not???
STYLES my friends...that's it, and Jordan does not need or want style playing. He can do it all without that feature. AND he usually has other players invoved including many guitar bangers and a top notch drummer.

Styles are way to limiting for him. He likes Karma, Arps, his own programmed loops etc.

Lee S.

Question?.....
What comes out September 17th, 2010?

Spalding1968,
(T2 demo)
He is very talented and could make anything sound pretty good...but if you really liten to the sound...not so good. Everything kind of blends in together Had a T2. Nice instrument. Not what I'm looking for.
Great for the kind of music he is playing.

Lee S.

Rudess is awesome...I really have grown to appreciate his work, especially with Dream Theatre.

Even the mid-range S910 can nearly equal a Tyros2/3, and is even more user friendly.

I love Yamaha's polished and refined sound.

That Roland demo is also excellent.

Ian

OK, Question...what does an arranger have that a Kurzweil K2600X has not???
STYLES my friends...that's it, and Jordan does not need or want style playing. He can do it all without that feature. AND he usually has other players invoved including many guitar bangers and a top notch drummer.

Styles are way to limiting for him. He likes Karma, Arps, his own programmed loops etc.

Lee S.

You are right. He may not need styles for the kind of work he does. What i was illustrating is what could be done with a little imagination using a style which is exactly what he did. I am not suggesting that an arranger is the ideal instrument for Jordan Rudess. But how many rudesses are there out there ????

What i am suggesting is that the 'limitations' that people insist are inherent in an arranger keyboard are in fact their own limitations with their imagination and skill. Not the instrument.

As for the T2 sounds... i dont know what to say. I dont think there has been an instrument made that can fulfill all your needs. In the mean time good luck with whatever you buy when ever or if ever you choose to accept the compromise that every musician has to make. That is that the machine makes a contribution to how you sound but you have to do the rest with your skill, talent and imagination.

Well, I got them all... Arrangers, WS's, synths, clones, VSTi's. You name it!

Thing is, when I'm trying to be creative, I want to use it ALL. I simply don't see the point in using an inferior tool (depending on what you are trying to do) as some kind of intellectual exercise. What the arranger does best, I use, in commercial and personal areas. But for what the WS does best, I use THAT for. For what the VSTi's do best, I use those...

So, I guess, as PART of an arsenal of musical tools, yes, nothing wrong with the arranger... But I simply see little point in trying to make one as the sole centerpiece of a production for anything other than live use.

I just don't see you as QUITE getting my point... Nothing WRONG with an arranger... just that, for certain things, there are better keyboards. And, pound for pound, just about 100% of all pros doing original music (sessions, studio, stuff you hear on the radio, etc.) are using something OTHER than an arranger....

But, I guess, they must ALL be wrong and you right, eh?

Not everyone can afford an arranger, and a workstation, VST's, synths, clones etc.

I believe Spalding's point is that you can achieve remarkable results within the limitations of your budget and your gear.

If all you have is an arranger that performs multiple duties, such as "live" play, recording and composition, the instrument has a lot of capabilities and power that the average (or even above average) person/player rarely explores.

Someone with Rudess' imagination, creativity and skill, could wring a lot of music out of a G-70, Tyros etc...far more than any of the posters here on SZ, in my opinion.

Ian

Thanks for being so succinct Ian :-)

Well, in that case, a laptop trumps them all...

Sound quality FAR in excess of ANY arranger out there, longer samples, more flexible recording possibilities, live-loop tools far better than any arranger, you name it... And probably much less expensive (compared to a TOTL arranger with the tools you say you want - sampler, etc.).

I mean, if we are going to pick a tool to be creative on, why not the MOST flexible, good sounding tool available?

I just started to look at this thread.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think when Spalding was talking about creativity he was talking about creative as in how you use an instrument not necessarily creative musically.


The creativeness that was being referred to in the example was that he took a workstation and used it as an arranger.
The fact that persons are say that could easily be done on an arranger only proves the point.

The reverse would be true. I am sure there is someone who could take their G70 and compose a song the same way they would do it on a Motif.

Yes what was being done in the example could be done easier on an arranger rather than a workstation. But it took a creative mind to use a workstation like that.