Hardware
Double Wave Memory 512Mb ROM
Faster processor - So it's faster in navigating and tighter in sound
Flash memory - instead of the DIMMs
VH2 - new vocal harmony technology and Synth Vocoder
XLR Mic input

Software
Slightly changed Organ Flutes GUI with the inclusion of a Euro type
Drum Mixer - make and balance your own Drum Kits
Wave Cycling - For vocals
New Vocal Harmony Interface
'Ambient' Sampling
Improved SA2 voicing technology with additional layer.
SA2 Voices in Styles

Content
Better Pianos - Using CLP technology including Key off and Damper samples.
new Strings - 70 piece Seattle Symphony Orchestra Mega.
new Orchestral Brass - highly dynamic
new Tuned Percussion - Glock, Xylo, Marimba and Vibes (with motor on)
new Mega guitars - telecaster with Finger and Plectrum
new Drums - Real Brushes and Real Drums plus 4 Dance Kits
SA2 Celtic Violin
SA2 Jazz Violin
SA2 Ballad Soprano Sax
SA2 Pop Soprano Sax
new Organs - Vox continental and Wersi Helios included
new Synth Voices - from Motif XF
new Classical Choir - Men and Boys Choirs. Very expressive with the ambience of the Cathedral
new Gospel Choir - Various articulations and Ad libs
new Pop Vocals - 4 session singers, 2 male and 2 female.
Singing many dynamics and many articulations. Wave cycling enables this to work

500 styles, many completely new.
All styles upgraded with new voices including SA2 voices.

plus more...

the sound is the biggest upgrade we have ever offered.

This sounds very interesting.
“new Pop Vocals - 4 session singers, 2 male and 2 female.
Singing many dynamics and many articulations. Wave cycling enables this to work”

We will just have to wait to hear how that sounds.

That all sounds nice, but they haven't addressed another big issue and that is how do you dynamically change the "Ooom Pah Pah" effect of the styles ala the Riff function of the Audya or the other style tools found in Roland?

One of my biggest issues with Yamaha is they do not have Outstanding core styles in each Genre that aren't complete musical productions. How about a simple bass, drum, guitar killer Mustang Sally style?? Meaning basic 4/4, 2/4, 6/8 killer styles that are NOT overprocessed with orchestras and at least 4 accompanying instruments. I think Ketron does this really well and I would have thought the T4 would have taken the Audya head on in this category.

On the other hand, adding the Motif XF sounds, drums, and Flash Ram capability and the Vocal harmony is very exciting. The entire keyboard must sound killer.

Any word on pricing??

Tyros 4 will be the biggest selling arranger worldwide...Audya who?

I'm a little bit annoyed as I've only just got my T3 really. I've asked if the supplier I got it from can do a deal but I've not had a reply yet.

get ready to sell it outright

I see you got your crystal ball

Why not, everyone else does?
September 17th the arranger world as we know it will change forever with Tyros4..

I cann't wait for Korg's new arranger.

Did anyone mention it will not have a 76 key version....

Originally posted by Kbdrkr One of my biggest issues with Yamaha is they do not have Outstanding core styles in each Genre that aren't complete musical productions. How about a simple bass, drum, guitar killer Mustang Sally style??

Keep in mind that you can instantly turn off any segment of any style using the sliders, or modify that style to fit YOUR needs using the onboard Style Creator program, which is very versatile and user friendly.

For Mustang Sally, Yamaha already has that style--it's called BluesRock, and from my perspective, it's one of the best Mustang Sally styles ever.

The beauty of nearly all MOTL and TOTL keyboards is the ability to modify anything and everything in the keyboard, then save the information so it can be instantly recalled. With Yamaha, the information slots are called registrations, and they're extremely versatile.

If I were 15 years younger I would consider purchasing a pair of T4s, one for the road and one for the office. However, at this stage of life I'll be sticking with the lighter, someone antiquated PSR-3000, at least until someone comes out with a magic pill that makes me younger and stronger.

It's quite obvious that Yamaha does listen to it's consumers, and over the past decade they've done an outstanding job of producing some outstanding musical instruments, arranger keyboards being just one of them. There's a reason they don't make a TOTL arranger keyboard with 76 or 88 keys--the demand is just not sufficient to warrant the cost of production. It's that simple. If the demand were there, Yamaha would be making a T4 with 76 or 88 keys. Sure, a handful of Synthzone members would like to have a 76-note board, but in the overall marketplace, it's a tiny fraction of consumers. Same goes for those, including myself, that would like to see a sunlight viewable LCD displays and button lights. A few years ago when I talked with Yamaha about this they had already researched the percentage of outdoor players in the market that would benefit from those features. It was less than 1/100 of 1-percent. Not worth the expense of retooling.

I sincerely believe the T4 will be one incredible, arranger keyboard and will be capable of doing nearly anything that anyone wishes to do. For some folks, the OS learning curve will be steep and difficult, while for others who have taken the time to explore their keyboard's inner workings, it should be a walk in the park.

Cheers,

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 09-12-2010).]

There will be no 76 key version.

Consider it mentioned.

Ian

I had placed my order over a month ago, for the T4s'>

Price has not been officially stated, I am one of the first in line, funny, I had to convince my guy that there was a unit coming out.

Hopefully they listened to more than just a group from 1 country.



------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com

Thats the BEST part!!

I know that you always go crazy about Yamaha stuff, but will you buy a T4 if you think that is SO GREAT? !!!

I wonder how many SZ Yamaha fans will purchase a T4.

Well, if the T4 will be the best selling arranger in the world, and is a big jump in quality, who in his right mind will buy a T2, T3 or S910? I won't.
I will put all my money in the T4 them.

I don't understand how "real" players...do not appreciate 76 keys.....and with a decent key action too...

Maybe there is more truth to the "home player" buyers than I thought..

Gary , same reason we won't see "outdoor" displays....You don't need them in your bedroom..

I will wait and see if the "new" Yamaha has the goods.....but don't hold your breath...I am confident..it is still a repackage...

Tyros3 did nothing for me (lasted 2 days)....we will see if the newbie will light my fire..or at least a spark..

1) I think the T4 will sound great.

2) I think the T4 will still suffer from Home heyboard build quality...yes many have had issues with T1,T2, T3 and T4 is the same. Just check on YPKO. Many have not...but I should not have to worry about the specific chemistry of my body and how it may effect the keyboards painted on lettering! The Motif is built very well based on my observation and research. The engineers at Yamaha in Home keyboard division are still building PSR's???

3) No 76 because Yamaha is only interested in home market, not PRO market and 'MOST' home players seem to only want 61.

4) I think they will sell a lot of the T4's

5) I think the features are very nice on the T4 and I'm sure the sound is great. BUT, I want to but a keyboard that will last a long time...and I'm not sure the T4 is going to meet that requirement.

6) I've avoided this T1---T2---T3---T4 thing so far...if the T4 sound wins me over...I may get one in spite of the build quality.

7) I've heard nothing of a PA3XPRO coming out...I may wait a while and see if I can find out about it. One can not assume there will be one. I do like the build quality of the Korg and it is a PRO instrument (many reasons I say this).

If I do get a T4...it MUST work correctly with a lower MIDI keyboard attached, for me to keep it.

Also, depends on street price.

Lee S.

I'm considering one. Got some cash in stash from the recent sale of my Pa2xPro..... I certainly will have to demo one before I make the leap. I'm fortunate that our friend Frankieve's store is just under a 2 hour drive.

I bet you the two violin SA2 voices share the same samples (ditto the sop sax)...

But, all that aside, I just find it hard to believe how SOME people are so exultant about an arranger's sales, as if THAT had anything to do with how good it is. The best SELLING car in the world is NOT the best car in the world.

And the unashamed glee shown when Yamaha don't offer a keyboard size that many people ask for... What's up with that? How would YOU feel if everybody else was happy as a sandboy that some feature YOU wanted (like a songbook that stored everything you want stored) was missing from it, Donny?

"Best thing about the T4? What Donny wants is missing... " Doesn't that sound petty and mean?

How about showing a bit of empathy, rather than this puerile "You don't get what you want, nya nya nya nya nya" bullshit...? After all, how would it make any difference to YOU, because it's not like we are asking Yamaha to STOP making 61's. But if they DID, and we were all gleefully making fun that Yamaha didn't give a sh*t about what YOU like best, bet you wouldn't be so happy

What's really neat is if you don't like what you see or hear, or the price, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT. I can't believe the number of individuals bitching and moaning about things they're never seen, touched or heard. Just go to George's, Frankie's or the nearest GC, play the damned thing, them come back with a FIRST HAND report of YOUR experiences. Then, keep in mind that it's YOUR OPINION.

Gary

Just in case the posts get 'edited'

I'm considering one as well, Steve.

I was going to wait and buy my S910 at the end of the cycle, but I just might spring for the T4, especially with all those great new features.

I had put in a request for an SA2 Violin, and finally they've got it...I love the SA2 Harmonica in the T3, and now I'll have some great sounds for the bluegrass stuff I like playing.

I seriously doubt if Yamaha would ever make a 61 and a 76, and since the 76 isn't that needed, according to surveys taken at clinics and demos, they'll no doubt stick with the one model as always.

Besides, anyone needing 76 keys that much can buy one of those Korg PA2X pro (I know you already have one) that everyone raves about, or an Audya (ditto) with all it's bugs and charms...even one of those old G-70's are still pretty good value for the money second hand; that's a fine instrument.

Well, we won't know it all till we actually play one...I don't expect to get one till October, so I'll have to rely on what's on-line.

Sure looks pretty impressive all the same.

Ian

Well said Gary...there's lots of choices besides Yamaha, if their arrangers don't turn your crank.

Why bitch about what they don't have or they don't make?

Just buy another product that has what you want....Yamaha aren't going to close their doors, and go bankrupt just because a few people don't buy one of their arrangers.

Funniest of all, is that most of the people that bitch and complain the loudest haven't the least intention of ever buying a Yamaha, no matter if it had everything they seem to feel is necessary.

The biggest way to fail is to try and please everybody...Yamaha is wise enough not to fall into that trap.

Ian

But Gary, if they don't make what you want, you CAN'T buy it...

And Ian, if you only ask what keyboard you want at clinics and seminars for people that already USE a 61, OF COURSE you are going to get a preponderance of replies that a 76 isn't needed. That would be like going to a piano convention, and asking whether a 61 note piano is a good idea!

Not really, Diki...we've been asking this question in many different ways, and the majority want 61 keys...and the majority rules.

Home piano players who want arranger features will buy a CVP Clavinova or a DGX-series piano...they would not buy a 76-note semi-weighted keyboard.

The pro piano players generally buy 88/76 note workstations, not arrangers...Yamaha makes a workstation with 76 weighted keys that is very popular, as it is easier to transport in a compact car.

The amount of people wanting a 76 note arranger is small...believe me, I've been in this business for quite some time.

Sure, there are a few, especially here on SZ, that want 76...they don't represent the general buying public...most arranger buyers are home players who will buy a Tyros/PSR if they came from an accordion or synth background, or a CVP Clavinova if they were pianists.

I'm told that Korg sells far more 61 note arrangers than 76, and they pretty well have the market for 76 cornered..the number of PA2Xpros is not a lot, so figure that Yamaha obviously does not want a piece of an already small pie.

Remember, these companies watch each other's sales figures, and there are ways they can get to them...big money always has it's ways.

Ian

Yep, life's a bitch that way. I've been searching the east coast for three years for a Morgan 33 Out Island sailboat, a boat that has not been manufactured since 1978. I've traveled thousands of miles to look at the few that were available. More often than not, by the time I got to the boat it had already been sold. I can't buy a new one because they don't make them anymore, and no matter how much I bitch, Morgan isn't going to bring them back into their production schedule.

Same holds true for arranger keyboards. I loved many of the features on my old PSR-5700--it was a great machine. Unfortunately, it weighed a ton, was limited in styles and voice selection and didn't have a vocal processor. Over the past two decades all of that has changed dramatically, especially if all the features touted on the T4 come to fruition. You, and a few others, wish it would have come out with 76 keys--it didn't. For most of us, including the pros who play every day for a living, the number of keys is inconsequential. If you, or anyone needs more keys to make you play better, then I would suggest buying a brand of keyboard that has more keys. There's a bunch of them out there.

And for the same reason, I may end up with another brand of sailboat other than the Morgan Out Island--maybe an Island Packet or a Hunter. In the mean time I'll keep enjoying what I have until I find exactly what I want--both with the keyboard and sailboat.

Now, for everyone that wants something different than what is currently being offered by the TOTL manufacturer you prefer, I suggest sitting down and writing a detailed letter to that company's product development department with a CC: to the company hierarchy. Post a copy of that letter here so we can see what you're seriously asking the manufacturer to do. I've only contacted Yamaha's production department once and that was 10 years ago. By and large I've been very happy with their products. Maybe I'm just easily satisfied, though.

Gary

Cheers,

Gary

Just thought you would like to see how Tyros has advanced over the years. This came from the PSR Tutorial site and Joe Waters. I couldn't make the tables reproduce properly for posting here, but you can see them for yourselves HERE


[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 09-12-2010).]

You know for all the talk about Yamaha’s product having sounds, styles and features that a lot of persons, love, how would making an arranger that would not negatively affect those persons be bad for Yamaha?
If everything on the arranger were to be the same except it has 76 keys, if everything else is so great how would 76 keys be a bad thing?

Do you remember when Yamaha arrangers did not have a sampler and audio recording? There were persons on here saying that Yamaha does not need a sampler and audio recording on their arrangers. They were saying that those are “pro” features and the “home” player does not need that.
What did Yamaha do? They included a sampler and audio recording on their newer arrangers. Did that cause a decline in their arranger sales? No it did not.
In fact, some of those person bought the arrangers with the things they said an arranger should not have. They have either seen the benefit of those features or they just don’t use it. No harm.

Same thing with 76 keys. You would either see the benefit of have 76 keys (which is more than just using it for piano mode) or you would just not use the extra 15 keys.

I would agree that having a 61 and a 76 key version of the same arranger would not be in Yamaha’s best interest.
But if the only version was a 76 key one and the sounds and styles were up to Yamaha’s quality, and the keyboard was not heavy and bigger than the T3, Yamaha would sell more than the T3.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-12-2010).]

its not that simple Genesys. There are some features that the market is more sensitive to than others. Size and weight are very critical features in these products. Even the mere perception of more weight or less manouverability can put large numbers of potential customers off.

Anyway i am looking forward to some real live demos of the T4. Then will look for a cheap S910 that is bound to come on the market in the next few months.

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 09-12-2010).]

Its all in marketing. And you know Yamaha is the King when it comes to good arranger marketing.
The T2 and T3 is heavyer than the PSR 3000 but did Yamaha stop making arrangers? Yamaha's thinking is that if your sounds ans styles are great, even if you do not have all the features that people want they would still buy the keyboard. That is why they could get away with small upgrades from one Tyros to the next.

Originally posted by travlin'easy:

"What's really neat is if you don't like what you see or hear, or the price, [b]YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT."


I agree Gary. Some of these posts are Tyros2 and 3 all over again...........and by the same cast of characters. All I can say is "This place sure is consistant"!! -charley

I've owned all of the Tyros series right up to T3, but I wont be going to T4, the Audya is the perfect Live Pro keyboard in my stable now.

I understand that Yamaha see the T series as a home player, but at the price, and one asumes it will be no different to the previous models, if Yamaha said to all of those 61 key buyers would you like a 76, you can't tell me they wouldn't jump at it. They have the MOtif shell its a lame argument to say it couldn't be done at a reasonable sell.

Also Price wise the piano (haven't heard it yet, but the CLP is pretty good, but why oh why cant they give you the same as in the Motif XF, seems very judgemental on Yamaha's part, and this is why you need a 76 piano on a 61 it's never gonna be the same.

So whilst I think the T series has been a great board, at this stage I think it's reasonable to be disappointed with what to expect from the T4, dont sell those T3's too cheap, the T4 may not be the answer a lot are looking for.

I've also owned the Tyros series up to the T3 (starting from the PSR 8000), and I WILL be getting the T4. I am assuming (yes I know what ASS-U-ME stands for), that the drums are going to be killer. I'd like the drums of the Audya better, but IMO the Tyros has a better combination of sound and performance features.

I'm going to get a T4...try it for 30 days..then I will see if it's for me. If not...back it goes at no cost to me whatsoever.

No, and I mean no, rumor of a PA3XPRO.

No updates, new sounds new styles NOTTA, from Korg for my PA2XPRO...probably means a new board is comming (it's been long enough too) so...I'll see what happens.

Meanwhile...I WILL get the T4 and I will give it a fair shot...that's the only way to tell if it's for you...get it and try it for yourself.

PS..my friend has my T2 now and seems happy.

Lee S.

quote"

chony
Member posted 09-12-2010 06:39 PM
I've also owned the Tyros series up to the T3 (starting from the PSR 8000), and I WILL be getting the T4. I am assuming (yes I know what ASS-U-ME stands for), that the drums are going to be killer. I'd like the drums of the Audya better, but IMO the Tyros has a better combination of sound and performance features.

IP
____________________________________________
yeah i know what ASS U ME stands for but I still believe Yamaha for them, see the Tyros as a winning formulae, and as much as we may kick and scream for features for pro sets they only change enough to get us to buy the next version, this is not a dramatic departure from previous models that I have seen so far, but I hope i'm wrong when the whole picture is revealed, lets face it, more competition is better outcomes for us all. As far as the drums, well if they haven't done the right thing at least there, heaven forbid.

BINGO!! Lee hit the nail on the head! Yamaha is NOT interested in the PRO market and therefore they won't make 76 key (or 88 key) totl arrangers! The only thing I would amend in Lee's statement is that roughly 50% of Home and/or Studio players actually would really prefer 76 KEYS! over 61 keys. The Polls don't lie - 50% of the arranger market would prefer 76 keys (or 88 keys). But Yamaha has such a huge following (just look around and you'll see the vastness of "Yamatron's" bowing to their master i.e. - they would buy a T4 if it only had 25 keys no doubt and because Yamaha's huge following the roughly 50% of the home market (who prefer 61 keys) Yamaha would still make buckets of money anyway i.e. on that roughly 50% alone apparently. They'll sell roughly a hundred Tyros4's to every 10 or so of Roland arrangers and/or Korg arrangers because Yamaha has this much bigger following and they end up selling tons more product than their competitors, needless to say. They're number one in size and sales by a long shot but they apparently don't have a need (or desire) to cater to the PRO, Home, and/or Studio market who prefer 76 or even 88 keys? Which is roughly HALF of the total arranger market as we know and as the Polls indicate. Yamaha is "kissing off" roughly 50% of their potential revenue because they're apparently raking in enough "loot" selling 61 key arrangers to the "other" half of the market - i.e. grandma and grandpa in the home - and they're too lazy??? or uninspired?? to reach the other half of the PRO, Home and Studio market. Which is their prerogative of course but it reeks of impropriety in my opinion.

So what it boils down to is Yamaha is quite "content" to overlook the PRO, Home, and/or Studio market who would prefer 76 keys (or 88 keys) and apparently their bottom line is not overtly affected because of it because of their already huge market share. So in other words, they will continue to make their 61 key totl arrangers - and to hell with everybody else. That's a harsh way to put it but it seems to be correct in its observation and thereby hits the mark in intended use; but which I regret having to use that particular word to get my point across.

But will my, or others, continual haranguing of Yamaha to change their business model help at all in the end? Well, we've been harping on Yamaha to make a 76 key totl arranger for pert near a decade and obviously to no avail as we see even the Tyros4 is 61 key only - much to the chagrin of 50% of the arranger market. Fifty percent of PRO, Home, and/or Studio players will simply have to look elsewhere for their PRO, Home, and/or Studio needs. Yamaha seems oblivious to our concerns and I recommend we start being 'oblivious' to Yamaha products and indeed look elsewhere for our keyboard, and our other musical needs. DO we really have any other choice?? Obviously not - thanks to Yamaha. Yet they seem unfazed - and destined to mediocrity because of it. At least in their arranger line anyway. At least that's how I feel. But as we've come to find out Yamaha doesn't seem to really care about how you or I feel. Sad... very sad. >> Unfortunately it seems it's ALL about the MONEY to them. Again... sad, very sad... yet apparently... true, very true.

All the best,
Mike

Michael, you aren't using Yamaha anyway...you seem content with your Roland keyboard, so one might say, you are already "oblivious".

There are a number of great 76 note arrangers available on the market...how come you didn't buy a Korg PA2XPro or a Roland G-70? The users of these products seem very pleased with what they have.

The Audya appears to be another alternative.

Why not stop wasting your time complaining about what is not being made for you by Yamaha, and spend the energy in investigating other lines and manufactures that are making a product that will suit your needs?

Obviously Roland sees no more need to make 76 note arrangers,....are they as guilty as Yamaha?

What if Korg dropped the PA2XPro...would you whine about them as well?

If you think you are beating a dead horse, why do you continue to beat it?

It is dead isn't it?

Why not buy an Audya module and MIDI it to your Roland?

If you waste your time complaining about the things that obviously aren't going to change, then you are also wasting the time you could use to make your own situation more bearable.

All the best to you, too,

Ian

Tyros 5 with 61 keys is in R&D....as we speak...if you want 76 keys get a good controller and MIDI up to a TYROS 4 !

After re-reading this entire thread, I'm thoroughly convinced that 99.9 percent of those doing all that bitching and moaning about 61 keys on the T4 WOULD NOT buy it if it had 76 keys and sold for $5,000.

And Michael, you make a lot of assumptions about the consumer market in your post above, especially the remark pertaining to the ratio of pro consumers V/S home and studio players. I'm not sure about that ratio where you reside, but in this part of the world the number of professional, arranger keyboard players are only a tiny fraction of the the total number of consumers. I'm fairly confident that Yamaha has done their homework and studies the consumer market a whole lot better than most manufacturers--that's why they're still around.

Now, for those residing in the mid-Atlantic area of the U.S. who must have 76 keys--DO NOT BUY A PSR OR TYROS SERIES YAMAHA KEYBOARD! And, while your at it DON'T BUY A BOSE L1, L1 MODEL II OR L1 COMPACT EITHER. I don't need the competition.

Cheers,

Gary

Seems if it is really true that 50% of the arranger customers would prefer 76 keys that Yamaha is missing a very big boat.

So, either Yamaha has other reasons for not doing 76 (Home division rules?) or 50% is not the right number?

Because I know Yamaha is not that stupid!

Lee S.

Another thing that surprises me is, for those people that think Yamaha is the be all and end all of arrangers, why would you NOT want Yamaha to bring out a 76, and remove the ONE impediment to us ALL being devoted slavish fanboys of Yamaha?

Here's the deal... Korg manage to stay in business offering a 76 and a 60 of the same arranger. Ketron manage to stay in business offering a 76 and a 61 of their arrangers (remember, the 76 Audya is the ONLY arranger in their current lineup that's a 76, isn't it?). Roland, up to the final G series, offered basically a 76 and 61 of the same arranger, and only JUST left the arranger market (for reasons that had NOTHING to do with the G70 being a 76 - after all, if the vast majority of arranger players hate 76's, how come the G1000 was such a huge hit?).

And, let's not kid ourselves. Yamaha DO make 76 arrangers. JUST REALLY BAD ONES. Even the über-expensive, über-heavy CVP's have at LEAST one generation (more like three, in truth!) out of date arranger technology in them. So, once and for all, will you SHUT UP about the fact that Yamaha don't make 76's and 88's.

They do... They just SUCK!

Isn't it about time Yamaha made a GOOD 76 arranger? I mean, what's the point in making BAD ones?

Donny,
MIDI up to a T4...yes, that's a possibility.
I did it wih my T2. Had a problem. If I remember correctly the LH memory function did not work correctly...a critical feature.
I called Yamaha...they said I did not need that feature as it's a home keyboard.

OK Guys & Gals...for those that don't want or don't need 76...so if you want to play a decent piano solo how do you get by with 61 freeking notes?? I'm not a heavy piano solo guy, but one of my friends is and he told me he could get by with 76...but 61 no way in H.

What..carry another keyboard with you for piano? Not!

Lee S.

I love the debate that Yamaha creates here with every new release of a 61 key arranger, it's some of the fuel that gets SZ active. Audya did too recently, but after months of SZ being on the mellow side Yamaha brings out another 61 key arranger and the debate goes full circle again.

Here's my take on it and I'm only speaking for myself. I've longed for 76 keys on a Yamaha arranger, but I'm convinced we won't see one in the class of the S9xx or Tyros series. Why did I want 76 keys? The extra real estate feels better to me who spent more years with piano than arranger. Then the light bulb went on ( duh) 95 % of gigs I play are assisted living facilities, the better ones have a grand piano in the lobby/rotunda where I play, the others have some form of piano, maybe a digital. The other 5% are the occasionaly wedding piano cocktail hour So why do I need 76 keys on an arranger when I have 88 on a grand piano? I really don't and since Yamaha isn't interested in 76 key arrangers I've given up the hoping. So at the gig I usually move to the 88s and play a 10 minute segment on the piano and at a cocktail hour the arranger stays home. Works for me, but everyone's circumstance is different.

Lee, for about 5 gigs going back a few years ago I carried a Casio Privia px410 and used midi to connect to the 3k. After 5 gigs I started leaving the Casio home where it still sits in a keyboard bag. It was way too much work.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-13-2010).]

Don't forget, pianos didn't even get to be 88's until the mid 1800's... Most of Beethoven's repertoire (except the very late pieces) can be played on a 76. ALL of Mozart can be played on a 76, and all but the most stretched out, whacked out jazz and pop piano music can be fit into a 76.

Not to mention, that extra octave makes putting THREE sounds on the keyboard less of an exercise in extremely limited range mitigation.... Finally! A full two octaves to play whatever inversion or voice leading change for the chord recognition, and STILL over four octaves to use for your RH...

Don't forget, the weight issue is simply a diversion. The E60 was a pretty full featured 76, at only four pounds more than an S910 (with a FAR better action). They CAN be made.

Yep...I see. It's nice to have the GP on site...the 76 issue is perplexing. There's something there at Yamaha we don't understand...no matter what anyone says here...somethings up. It may be a simple as when they meet for requirements definition...a couple senior mgs just say 'This is a home keyboard and we are not going to do 76 keys' As long as they sell enough 61's they are not going to change it.
Bachus said that 50% of the arranger players want 76...so there's demand for sure.

With me...I always played organ...so I'm kind of stuck with arrangers because the organs went away (Yamaha) 1 manual 61 notes is TIGHT for me. Forget playing any meaningful piano too (But I didn't have that on the organs either (2- 44 or 61 note manuals). 76 is a nice compromise and I think it was Diki taht said it's the overall size & bulk that's a concern for the 61 lovers not the 76 keys.

I'm here to tell you I could move my PA2XPRO around a lot easier than my T2...the T2 was very wide & thick and no light weight either. The PA is easier to grab hold of & carry. It ssure isn't light either..BUT IT IS A METAL CASE...and meant to last.

In my case I use the 76..if I get a T4 because I want the content..I will have a 76 under it.

Lee S.

The ones calling for a 76 note Tyros or S-series must realize by now, that they are beating a dead horse.

The Tyros came out...the outcry by a few was for a model with 76 keys...no dice.

The Tyros2 came out, and again, the same few cried for a 76 note model...again, it did not happen.

The Tyros3 was introduced, and again, SZ was alive with the same bunch bemoaning it didn't have 76 keys.

Now, the Tyros4 is soon to be launched, again without 76 keys, and again, the same few bawling about it.

How much snow has to be on the roof before you get the drift.

They ain't making one, and they quite likely will not make one when the Tyros5 comes out.

The company obviously knows a lot more than the so called "armchair keyboard marketing gurus" here on SZ...until the company's marketing department decides a 76 note instrument is viable and profitable, it ain't gonna happen.

There are other choices if you need a 76 note arranger; they appear to be well supported...buy one and stop wasting your time complaining.

The horse is dead.

Read back to the old posts about Tyros/Tyros2/3 and see just how much the debate made a difference...do you really think it will now?

Don't like it?

Buy elsewhere.

Those are the cold hard facts, whether you want to believe them or not.

Ian

Regardless of the number of keys, real piano players, whether they be pro or home players, do not want a wimpy semi-weighted keyboard...it compromises their chops and offers very limited dynamics.

Most pro piano players, buy digital pianos, and those requiring more goodies, buy an 88 note weighted action workstation.

If they want an arranger, it more than likely will be a CVP Clavinova, or a KR-series arranger-piano. or if you like, piano based arranger.

It's the key feel that is important to a pianist...check out any piano forum for all the debates on what actions feel most like a "real" piano.

Ian

But..Ian..If you can have one keyboard for everything...why would you want a 61?
76 IS available in weighted hammer action too..even though I would rather compromise on 76 semi. Not perfect for everything...but a good compromise.

I'm not only talking Yamaha here...everyone...who knows the next Korg may only be 61 as well.

It is currently be a dead horse with Yammie...but, if enough customers ask for it...maybe in the future we get it. What do we do...just take what the high & mighty gives us and not try to change things?

Question...How many here on SZ has been asked by Yamaha if they want/need a 76 key Tyros? Who do they ask? Only little old lady's in UK? Only their PRO demo guru's? Who? We fill out those registration cards, how many owners are asked what they want in the future?

Seems like quite a few here have expressed desire for it...and that's only here..a VERY small group.

Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 09-13-2010).]

I don't want one keyboard for everything.

A 61-note light action arranger that weighs 25 lbs (PSR-S910) suits my arranger needs.

An 88 note weighted action piano, like the 25 lb Yamaha P-85, suits my piano playing needs.

A 76-note semi-weighted keyboard is total crap for playing piano on, and is needlessly too long for my arranger needs.

I might be happy with a very light (30 lb) 88/76 note arranger as long as the keys are weighted hammer action.

88/76 weighted keys on an arranger (if the weight is under 30 lbs) is far less of a compromise to me, than a 76-note semi-weighted keybed.

I never have an arranger gig that requires me to play solo piano, and neither do I have a piano gig that requires arranger background.

On the very rare chance of needing both, the P-85 and the S910 aren't a big deal to take with me...both are light and compact, and set-up/tear down time, for me, is never an issue.

Ian

Ian,
Yes...I see your points. One difference is I don't care if it weighs 100 lbs..I don't take it out of the house...ever, unless I move. I think there is more like me than those that take them out all the time.

Actually if Yamaha would build a Clavinova with T4 in it instead of always using a lower model...That might be pretty sweet.
Korg did the same thing with the PA588.

But, Once again no dice..why do they dumb down the Clavinova?

Lee S.

actually the high-end CVP is not as dumbed down as you might think, other than having no aftertouch or pitch/mod wheels.

The new CVP will have more piano-orientated features, but will have the same sounds as the Tyros4, and a few that the latter does not have.

People buying a CVP are interested in "piano" first.

Roland does the same with it's KR-series.

Korg's PA-588 is too heavy for a "portable"...it is 51 lbs., even heavier that the portly G-70...add the weight of a necessary flight case, and your looking at a lot to lug.

I'm cutting back a lot on my personal gigging this year, so weight won't be an issue any more.

I'm very tempted by the Tyros4...I have a nice digital piano, so I might buy the T4 for recording purposes, and when I want 88 weighted touch, I'll just midi the piano to the Tyros.

Time will tell...I'm in no hurry.

Ian

Ian,
Sounds like you have a good plan.

I am going to get the T4..and put it on top of my MIDI kbd. add the pedals.

I will keep it for about 3 weeks at least. I will give it the best shot I can. If I like the way it works as an organ and of course all the sounds, styles etc. I will keep it. If not back it goes at no cost to me at all for the 3 weeks.

I would really like to be able to draw from all the Yamaha styles out there. If I do select the T4 I will keep it for many years...and just play. It's hard to explain...but I am looking for a certain level of instrument...sound wise. The T2 wasn't it, and the PA2 is closer..but not it either. You know the kind of music I play...very different then many here. An organ would be best..but only a Yamaha...I don't care for Roland, or Lowry at all. Stagea would be sweet, but I can't get one. Wersi is too expensive and I don't care for the lack of support here in US.

Hope I can get my T4 sometime in October?
I'll wait to see price & avaiability.
OH, one last question...when do you think the new Clavinova is out? Approximately.

Lee S.

Yep, there sure are a lot of terrific styles out there for Yamaha arrangers....just join one of the style clubs and the world is your oyster.

Too bad about the Stagea...they are pretty hard to get; even we Yamaha employees don't see 'em.

I suspect the new CVP-6** series will be a year after the Tyros4...generally the new mid-range PSR will arrive at the same time.

The T4 is to the T3 as the S910 was to the S900...no real cosmetic changes, but quite a bit under the hood goin' on.

Ian

Don’t forget that a 76 key keyboard is not just for piano players and it does not have to have weighted keys. I will give just one example of how a 76 key keyboard can be used other than piano. You can use it to get an additional split point.

An if 76 keys were just for piano players, then the Motif and M3 76 key offerings would have been weighted. They are not.
I just don’t see why would a person who likes just 61 keys in their PSR 910 and T3 have a problem with 76 keys if it does not affect size and weight. It makes no sense other than just being difficult to those who would like 76 keys.
As discussed in other threads, the real issues is not persons preferring 61 keys to 76 keys but persons preferring a lightweight and compact keyboard.

The first manufacturer who makes a 76 lightweight, compact and mobile arranger will solve a lot of the world’s problems.

Bottom line is that Yamaha is not going to make a 76 note top line arranger...despite the bitchin' and whinin' of several people since the first Tyros came out, the fact that every other Tyros afterwards still had 5 octaves should make it quite obvious, even to the most casual observer, that Yamaha do not feel that making a 76 note arranger is in their best interest.

All the whinin' and cryin' hasn't worked these past several years...what makes you think it will work now?

What part of "NO" can you not understand?

Perhaps you might consider Yamaha actually knows something you do not?

If, in the next few years between the Tyros4 and Tyros5, Yamaha decides a 76 note T-series is in their best interest they'll make one.


For now, those needing a 76 can easily buy a Korg PA2Xpro (or Audya) and be happy as a clam with it, as many here say they are...what is the problem?

How many keys on your Genesys keyboard?

How long have you had it?

Ian

The genesys module which I have I can get 61 76 or 88 keys.

As discussed in other threads, the issue is not just having 76 keys but also having something that is compact and mobile of which the Korg, Roland and Ketron are not.

Plus we want the great styles and sounds of Yamaha.
It amazes me that Yamaha and its representative are just ignoring a significant part of its potential market.

Not everyone crowing here for a 76 note Tyros will actually buy one...a lot want the sound to be more to what they think it should be, as on a Roland or Audya for example, so no matter how many keys it will have, they won't buy it.

It amazes me that you can assume Yamaha is ignoring the "significant market" because, you really don't know what the actual "market" is, unless you have done surveys yourself, and, somehow, I don't think you have.

If you have done so, please share it with us.

What amazes me even more, is that you can't understand the word "NO".

Ian

Yamaha have ALWAYS been 'not going to make something' until they actually DO. Whereupon, all the fanboys that said such a thing promptly found some other bandwagon to jump on, and conveniently forgot Yamaha doing exactly what they said they never would!

And, one more time (as if this is going to stop this idiotic gushing) YAMAHA DO MAKE 76 NOTE ARRANGERS.

But they SUCK...

That's all we are asking for... not for Yamaha to start doing something they aren't already doing. But to merely START to do a decent job at something they obviously haven't managed yet. Would it KILL them to add THIS YEAR'S arranger technology to THIS YEAR'S CVP? Would it kill them to add this year's arranger technology to all the 76 arrangers they DO make?

But their business model seems to say 'if you play anything bigger than a 61 by choice, you don't NEED our best arranger technology'. And I, for one, can't come up with a single reason why a person playing a 76 or an 88 needs anything different whatsoever to a 61 player.

BTW, there are piano sounds, and we play piano parts (as best we can!) on 61's as well as 76's and 88's. If nothing BUT an 88 will suffice to play a piano part on, despite the obvious fact that you no more need to be an organist to play organ parts, or a sax player to play sax parts, why are they included on a 61 (and I guarantee that Ian plays them)?

Grasping at straws, I'm afraid, Ian... Is an 88 optimal for piano? Of course. Can you play organ parts on an 88? Sure. Optimal? No... but 88 note arrangers and WS's have organ sounds onboard.

A 76 is possibly the BEST keyboard for a KEYBOARD player. Big enough for most piano parts' range. Light weight enough keyboard for most organ parts. Sure, it's not the best for a PIANIST. But I'll bet the majority of us here consider ourselves KEYBOARD players. And we NEED all the sounds, on a keyboard that limits them as little as possible.

The biggest compromise, IMO is a 61 plastic. Not only does the key weight penalize you, but the size penalizes you even MORE. I can easily play piano parts good enough for any producer on a 76 G70. But I am hard pressed to do a good job on a 61.

Let's face it, were Yamaha to actually decide to make a GOOD 76, Ian would be trumpeting its' superiority to everything else at the top of his lungs. Amazing how quiet he gets (to the point of completely ignoring the fact that they DO make 76 arrangers) when they don't make a GOOD one...

To my mind, if a keyboard has an arranger engine in it, it is an arranger. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... you get the picture! So Yamaha make 88 arrangers (they don't want to CALL them arrangers, but that is what they are), they make 76 arrangers (but don't want to call them that, but that is what they are) and they make 61 arrangers. Sadly ONLY the 61's are any good...

Is that cause for celebration? Personally, I'd be ashamed if my employer and favorite marque could only dominate in one segment, when all it needs to do to dominate across the board was cobble a different size keyboard onto what is already the best selling 61.

Is that laziness, incompetence, or both?

That was a touching novel, Diki.

I see you are another one who does not comprehend the word "NO".

Ian

Neither...it's simply called clever marketing strategy, in case you weren't aware.

Why waste resources on a minuscule market that is already crowded?

You may not like Yamaha's strategy, but it works for them.

Trying to please everybody is a sure way to fail.

Why not learn to accept Yamaha's "NO" with grace and dignity, instead of revealing your total ignorance of basic marketing.

Ian

My 'basic ignorance' of marketing extends to the fact that, if one company can address a minuscule market, and make a profit, any other one can, too...

They forget to teach you that one in marketing school?

And, once again (none so blind as those that keep their eyes, ears and mind shut) Yamaha have NOT ignored that 'minuscule' market segment. In fact, they have a whole DIVISION dedicated to it. They make 76 arrangers, and 88 arrangers. JUST BAD ONES...

But doing that is great marketing, isn't it, Ian?

Still having a problem with the word "NO", Diki?

Yamaha competes very successfully with Casio in the entry to mid level 76/88 note piano based arranger market.

They aren't interested in a small piece of the small pie that is the 76 note TOTL arranger market.

Trying to please everyone is bad business...very basic stuff you would know, if you actually understood rudimentary marketing.

But since you can't even comprehend the meaning of a simple word like "NO", it can't be expected you'd ever be able to grasp simple marketing savvy.

Stick to things you know, and stop wasting time trying to badger, guilt-trip, and shame a huge successful company into doing what you, an ordinary musician with obviously no marketing skills, thinks they should be doing, and get that ego down to a manageable level.

You'll feel a lot more peaceful.

Ian

I spoke with a friend at Yamaha today. The price for the new Tyros4 will be the same as the Tyros3 and although a few have arrived they are being quality control tested and they don't expect to ship to dealers until October.

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

I'm told we are to expect them in Canada late October.

Ian

And any word on the release of the new
S series units?..... 61 keys of course

Sheesh.... So who made you the marketing God?

I've done enough selling in the past to have learned a thing or two, and the number one rule of marketing is that if you are deficient in some area with your product, and someone buys someone else's product because of that deficiency, then you lost market share. It may be small, but it's percentages of market that make or break a company's bottom line.

So yeah, if someone buys a 76 key arranger from a company other than Yamaha because that is what they WANT, and Yamaha wasn't offering it, then Yamaha just lost a customer. THAT, my friend is marketing 101. Offer as many potential customers as you can whatever it is that they want to buy. See how SIMPLE that is?

And BTW, telling potential customers "NO" is about as dumb of a strategy as I can imagine for ANY company to do. It ONLY works if a company is a sole source of a product and has absolutely NO competition in that field. Otherwise they just wind up fumbling the ball into the other team's hands.

Well said. Making a 76 key arranger is the next best thing that Yamaha could do especially since it does not affect the persons that like 61 keys.

Who made me the marketing god? I don't know, but it sounds to me like you assume that you are one.

You are simply another one who can't understand "NO".

And, I disagree...the number one rule in marketing is NOT if you are deficient in some area with your product, and someone buys someone else's product because of that deficiency, then you lost market share.

You might consider that trying to please everybody is a noble sentiment, but it does not work in business, nor does it work in real life.

Yamaha simply aren't interested in a small piece of the small pie that is the 76 note TOTL arranger market.

Thanks for the interesting reply with the wonderfully wrapped package of little wisdom and many words...how do you do it?

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-15-2010).]

Hogwash. If it was, they'd be makin' them.

It isn't, so they are not.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-15-2010).]

So we go back to Ian’s real premise (silly as it may be) being that Yamaha is perfect and it makes all flawless decisions.

I don't see how one company's representative could keep saying no to a significant market.
Remember that Yamaha’s reasons for not making a 76 key arranger is based on flawed market research. If asking persons if they would welcome a 76 key arranger where the persons being questioned idea of a 76 key keyboard is big bulky and heavy, then of course the answer would be no especially if the persons being questioned are playing a compact and mobile 61 key arranger.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-15-2010).]

Lets take another example. A laptop manufacturer developed a laptop that has a slide out printer/scanner on the laptop itself.

In doing research for that new product they ask laptop users questions like would you welcome a laptop with a slide out printer/scanner.

If the persons they questioned idea of a printer and scanner is that of being big and bulky, then the answer would most likely be no.

But the manufacturer has developed the product where including the slide out printer/scanner built in to the laptop would not affect the weight and size of a 17 inch laptop.

But if they do not get that information in to the questioning, then the answer they get would be based on persons assumptions and the result of the research would be misleading.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-15-2010).]

BTW

Does any one remember when persons were crying for Yamaha to include MP3 playback and audio recordings on their arrangers?

And you remember the negative response that got. ---we are not karaoke players; that is for workstations; if persons want to record they would use their DAW; it is not needed; it will make the keyboard to complicated; it will jack the price up of the keyboard--- and so on.

Yamaha now include MP3 playback and wave recording on their arrangers. Did they suffer a reduction in sales because of that? In fact, some of those same critics now see the benefit of having MP3 playback and wave recording on their arranger.

It will be the same thing with including 15 extra keys on their MOTL and TOTL arrangers. Users will then see the benefit of having 76 keys on their arranger.

Yamaha and others have been incorrectly addressing the issue as a 61 v. 76 key issue. The issue is not the number of keys but whether the keyboard remains compact, not heavy and mobile. And we all no Yamaha can make a compact, not too heavy and mobile MOTL or TOTL arranger that has 76 keys.

What is silly, is that you keep misquoting me and putting words in my mouth...that's very impolite and you are being very naughty.

No one here said "Yamaha is perfect and it makes all flawless decisions"...except you.

All companies make mistakes...look at Gem, for instance; there's a company that couldn't even stay in business, but you don't mention their blunders....perhaps it is because you own one of them?

You know Genny, this debate has been going on since the original Tyros, and, despite the harping, howling, guilt-tripping, and other childish tactics performed by you and several others, there has not been a 76 note Tyros.

Despite what you think, "stubbornness" is not a virtue, and in this case, it is a liability because you are wasting your time, going over and over the same debate that ends with the same results.

Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results, is a form of insanity...I'm sure your faithful and competent psychiatrist will be glad to help you come to grips with your problem, and perhaps, at the same time, explain the meaning of the word "No" to you.

You can go in circles forever with this debate, but the bottom line, is that Yamaha isn't making one until they feel the market is profitable for them.

If their market research is "flawed" (your word), why not be helpful and show them the error of their ways, but not with wild guesses and conjecture, but with actual facts and numbers.

Have a nice day,

Ian

Well Ian, you were the one in referring to 76 key arrangers, who said “If it was, they'd be making' them.
It isn't, so they are not.:
Is that not an assumption that they would always make perfect decisions?

Look Ian lets stop beating around the bush and get to the real issue for Yamaha.

They created a TOTL 76 key arranger in the PSR 9000 pro and it flopped.
You and I both know that for some corporate heads in Yamaha, That is their primary reason for not making a TOTL 76 key arranger.
But we also know that the PSR 9000 pro flopped not because it was 76 keys but because it was big and heavy and it had lots of OS and hardware deficiencies.
If this debate has been going on for years, does that not tell yu something about the need for a TOTL 76 key arranger from Yamaha?
What part of we want it does Yamaha not understant?


P.S I have said what Gem did wrong. I said building a product that persons like and persons could keep for a long time was detrimental to the company. I said that they along with Roland, Korg and Ketron should take a page out of Yamaha’s book an make products that leave people wanting so that they will buy a new product in 2-3 years after the original board.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-15-2010).]

There really is only one issue...just the one you (and a few other marketing wannabees) have with Yamaha's decision to not make a 76-note TOTL arranger based on their extensive market research.

When you finally accept their decision, the issue you have will go away.

Simple eh?

Ian

No, it is not my assumption that "they would always make perfect decisions"...it is yours.

Ian

'Twas the night before Xmas
And all through the house
Not a creature was stirring...
Not even a mouse

My stocking was hung
by the chimney with care
If by some chance
A 61-key T4 would fit in there!


HA HA HA!! Love the HYPE! Can't wait for the reveal!

The fact the T4 STILL yet again is sporting that infamous 128 poly tells me not only everything i need to know, but that it is just another cleverly packaged T1 with more crafty sliding distractions in the candy ass store.

Yamaha: "let's throw on some blue lights this time,that'll shut them up for another 4yrs..ohh and a 2005 fad a vocoder".

Yamaha,let's ditch the tyros thingy and get some adult toys out here please,let's try something new like DSP's for every individual part/track..gimmie new stuff for my labours involving $4000,thx.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-15-2010).]

I do very complicated stuff and have very full custom styles, layered voices, you name it ... but I have yet to suffer from drop outs...

T'was the night before Xmas,

And alone in his house.

Old Genny was posting,

With keyboard and mouse.


His gig bag was hung,

By the chimney with care,

In hopes that a keyboard,

Soon will be there.


He's writing to SZ,

To Nigel and friends,

He's been very naughty,

And must make amends.


All he'd been posting,

Was circular patter,

He can't figure out,

Just what is the matter...


With Yamaha's marketing,

And why they are missing,

Fifteen little keys,

And he starts reminiscing...


About an arranger

The 9000 Pro,

And he says it's to blame

For Yamaha's "NO"


'Cause that's the reply,

That comes from Japan.

But Genny won't listen

He's a strong minded man.


He says, "Yamaha's wrong,

And they can't see the need.

For a 76'er

So they'll never succeed."


He harps and wails,

"Why don't they see?"

"Their marketing mavens,

Can't be smarter than me."



He sighs as he gets

A moment of clarity.

And he's suddenly convinced,

Of the wise singularity...




Of Yamaha's purpose,

And, he finally chimes,

"Their wisdom's not flawless,

But it's greater than mine."


And as he pressed "send",.

We heard him exclaim.

"I'll have to ask Ian

What 'no' means again."




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-15-2010).]

My point though is that it is another lazy still old offering of old.maxed out or not, 128 poly. To me the tyros4 is just the Tyros1 only NOW getting maxed out/tired concept.
I want something fresh/new faceplate(back to black/rubber buttons please) with a whole new slew of turn knobs like an old juno if it need be. The T4 is soooo close to T3 in looks alone,never mind the same ol engine under the hood.
The T4 is like chev having the same old camaro from 1982-1992,that this year will come with a new steering wheel and new lug nuts!

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 09-15-2010).]

thats funny

PA2X
G70
Audya
Mediastation

Every other TOTL arranger is aiming at the 76 key market because thats where the pro's are and so the pro wannabee...

Yamaha doesn't want to be on the pro market. Why? Because then they have to live up to people that demand first class stuff and innovation.

So Yamaha is sattisfied with the homeconsumer market.

You have heard/played the Tyros4?

The T4 is like having a Corvette chassis and engine, under your classy Camaro.

128 poly is plenty...I've never had dropouts on the T2/T3 or even the S900/ S910, so I very much doubt if there will be any issues with the Tyros4.

64-note poly was easily maxed out on an arranger...that's why they doubled it to 128.

Ian

Yes, Yamaha is very satisfied with the home consumer market...that's where the big profits lie.

Remember, lots of pros use Yamaha Tyros and mid-range PSR because they are compact, lightweight, and sound equal to, or better than, the competition's so called "pro" arrangers.

A "pro" is just a person who makes his/her living at playing...doesn't mean they are any more skilled than home players; in fact I know several home players that can easily outplay most if not all the so-called pros here on SZ including myself.

Nashville uses PSR instruments for song writing, and several big name performers use Tyros and PSR arrangers for song writing.

Korg will do okay in the small 76-note arranger arena, because there is no real competition for their PA2XPro...the Audya sure isn't, the Mediastation is almost a Yeti, and the G-70 is discontinued.

Ian

ahhhh the 76 versus 61 key debate. each time i hear it it sounds so fresh and yet i know we have danced this dance a dozen times before. Play on gentlemen.....

Isn't it a hoot, Spalding?

Thankfully I have a few days off so I have time to have fun.

I think 61 vs 76 has been going on even prior to the Tyros.

They should make a 68½ key instrument and everyone should be happy...

Ian

Nord has it right!!! 73 keys?

I don't understand why instead of discussing the merits or faults of the T4, we are arguing about 61 or 76 keys.

Yamaha have say NO. Why argue?

1- I am impress for the amount of SA voices (164) that the T4 is going to have.
2- The amount of styles (500)
3- The amount of megavoices (43)
4- Yamaha have the best beta testing of all the arrangers vendors. Usually the release keyboards don't have many bugs.

Is a challenge to Korg to do better.

I am no that impress with the Flash memory side. If the sequencer is no improve, who cares?
It took me 1 hour to load a piano sample in a T2 with 1 gig of memory.