http://www.ocala.com/article/20100915/ARTICLES/100919797/1402/NEWS?Title=Behold-the-7-000-keyboard

It's very brief but the real first indication of what to expect.

One second. The US debut of the T4 was at an old age home?

And all they got was a 1 minute video clip?

Doesn't appear to be anyone in the audience under 70. Does this say something about the appeal of arranger keyboards to young people? Will it ever reach any audience other than what you see in this video? Is it even possible for manufacturers to change the image of arrangers at this point? Just asking.

chas

If this is Ocala Florida, I'm really pissed, because i'm 30 minutes from there and I wasn't notified there was a demo here???? Do I have the right Ocala?

Wait a minute, did I see $7000!!!!

Holy Cow. Forget it.

That was fantastic WOW!!!

Common new S Series!

Most of my clients are from 45 or so to near your age, Chas.

The people who buy high end arrangers were usually players in a band at one time, are now retired, and now have more room (and money) in their life to start up again...some even play out.

One guy told me he was spending the kids' inheritance on his new instrument.

Ex-piano players usually buy CVP Clavinova, especially for the realistic grand piano action, and they tend to use the auto features less than Tyros players do, for instance.

As long as Yamaha (and others) keep making changes to, or adapting their arrangers (styles especially) to fit in that window of the 45-80 age bracket (where the money is) as it moves from generation to generation,, there's going to be a market for them.

Young people aren't interested...they want synths...they also don't have the money for a high or mid range arranger.

The high and mid range arranger buyers' age bracket remains the same...the arranger simply changes along with it at the same rate...that's how it's been working the last 20 or so years I've been in the business.

In other words, the age variation has remained the same over the years, with youngest buyers around 40-45, with some a little younger.

There will always be 40-45 year old...we just have to make sure the newer arrangers embrace the music they grew up with.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-15-2010).]

If the drums are better, and from what little I heard they seem to be, and the vocal harmonizer is usable, it may finally what it should have been some years ago!!
The lead sounds have always been good.
DonM

You do have to wonder how many of those older folks are going to be concerned about the extra weight and size of a 76 key arranger as opposed to the 61 key version. It's not like they are going to be lugging it around anywhere...

That's not an old folks home. It's a music store in Sears who's customers are seniors.

I worked with Mark Bouvier at Fletcher Music centers which was/is the worlds largest home organ chain, selling home organs only.

Sears has leased space to different music stores for years starting with Baldwin. Someone tried to lure me away from Fletchers to do that for Roland some years ago.

Mark has left Fletchers and is using the home organ concept with the T4. Interesting to see how this approach works so well that it is number one in the US outselling the New York and Los Angelos market. FWIW

The swing beat that Pete played is outstanding. I was wondering when I'd actually hear something that good on an arranger.

This is an extension of the home organ market. I assure you that most of the customers here are lucky if they can play with one finger in both hands.

Only a very small percent of this type of customer would be interested in 76 notes.

True...we do surveys at all our clinics, and the percentage wanting 76 keys is very small...almost negligible.

The "younger" arranger buyer, at around 45 or so, does tend to want something that can be easily carried, as quite a few do some gigging.

Those wanting more than 61 are usually piano players, and prefer 88 weighted action...the CVP Clavinova is very popular with this bunch.

Ian

Amazing!! No not the demo, the conicidence. My wife and I are on the verge of buying a home in Ocala. We've been to the Paddock Mall where the Sears store is, too bad we weren't there this week.

Exactly.
And especially since Ian has basically said that their “research” really did not address having extra 15 keys and did not seem to address other customer’s concerns other than persons over 65. Asking a small segment of your market who plays 61 keys if they would like 76 keys (where the perception of 76 keys is that of the Korg PA1 X pro and Roland G70 and PSR 9000 pro), the answer is quite obvious.

If arrangers were just for past organ players then is Yamaha saying that Roland, Korg, Ketron, and Mediastation are all wrong? Did not those company do “research” to see if 76 key arrangers are wanted?


If those persons on the video will buy a T4, if it had an additional 15 keys and was not heavier and less compact, did Yamaha ask them if that would prevent them from buying the T4?


And, I am sorry but if those arranger players (as Ian says) use to play keys in a band, did they not play a 76 key keyboard? Did they not play a piano or a 88 key keyboard? Would not a 76 key arranger be the perfect compromise for them?

Hopefully the new S series will address the short comings in the T4 and have the extra 15 keys.

Still haven't accepted that there will be no 76 TOTL arranger from Yamaha, Genny?

Gee, it's staring you right in the face.

Count 'em...61 keys.

Now stop weeping, and take your meds.

Ian

So I guess I'm the only one Shocked at the $7000 price tag??? or has this music store included some value added services like Lifetime lessons or something?

They mention lessons and superb service in the article. Someone mentioned that the owner visits them at home. Surely something comforting to the clientele since most-all of his customers are old.

Did you see that one customer who played the Tyros 4 was 90 years old?

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 09-16-2010).]

I think george kaye stated in a previous T4 same price as the T3?....and well worth the price for all the great features and super sound this instrument gives the customer.

The suggested retail price is still the same and map is still the same. I'm at home right now but I think retail is $5495.00 and map is $4595.00 (give or take $100.00!).
This doesn't mean you have to sell at this price. It only means you cannot advertise anything less than MAP price. And although I think it must be getting more difficult to sell for over the retail price, this is just a suggested retail and dealers can mark up retail to anything they wish. Some dealers I've been told do mark up and then offer large trade up values when their customers wish to upgrade. This was a very common practice years ago but I think it would be harder these days with so many folks using computers.

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Don't you guys get it...
It's like the home organ market...those are the people with the money! Florida..of course!

I went to a Organ concert last winter near here...Lowry, they had one of there hired killers playing...
IT STUNK...not the player..the Organ. Most sounds were terrible. Those senior citizens were eating it up...and paying $25,000 and up for those things. They got life time lessons and support from the dealer FREE!
Several people that night actually bought one!

That price in Ocala includes all that too!

So, instead of paying the $3,200 street price (They probably don't even know you can do that)...they pay $7,000 to get the extras because they think it's great. You can buy a lot of lessons for $4,000!

Lee S.

Lee there is No price on Happiness

Donny,
Thats so true....If they are happy with the arrangment of the arranger purchase..Great!

When I had a Yamaha HS8T organ...I loved it.
I paid $ 8,500 in 1987. I was happy with it then.

Actually I still want one of those..BUT with current technology & sounds. I would pay $8,000 - $10,000 for it.

Not available...Damn.

Lee S.

Let's face it Yamaha arrangers have the best sounds & styles on the market, that alone is the driving force to make them Millions year after year, that means their customers are VERY happy....everyone else is merely playing catch up at this point & looking for excuses to do the contrary...but the Gap is closing slowly in technology day by day on all levels..

too much reverb.
Haven't heard nothing special from this short demo (only annoying trumpet).

Donny
Yes...It will be interesting to see what Korg has to come soon!
Lee S.

http://www.piens.be/news/2816/en/tyros-4-is-er

This is the Peter Baartmans short demo (quick time movie).

Wow, doesn't sound impressive at all.... (bad sound quality of the video though)

That's not a demo...it's barely an enticer.

Maybe tomorrow?? Sept. 17th
Lee S.

I dont think many people know how really close Yamaha & Korg are.....



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-16-2010).]

"Due to an urgent request from Yamaha, we have been forced to remove the full version of the Tyros-4 demonstration movie. We will put it back shortly. Please come back to watch the full presentation video."

Donny,
Not sure what you mean?
I had a T2 until recently, and I have a PA2XPRO.
Apples & Oranges...yeah there both fruit...that's where it stops.

Lee S.

Lee not in the way your thinking....
I meant "business wise"... but I could be wrong?....maybe the experts will chime in?

Donny,
OK, I see where your going.
Nothing these days would surprise me...
I have a contact pretty high in Korg...I'll aks him. He may tell me, but then I may wind up in a foundation in Jersey?
Lee S.

That demo sucked big time.

The people I know that have heard the Tyros4 say it is a significant upgrade from the T3.

Ian

Tomorrow morning will be a Milestone for yamaha!! TYROS 4

i dont see what is so significantly different from the T3 to the T4 and i certainly dont hear the difference. I guess its something you would have to hear live but i am not the least bit enticed. Looking forward to picking up a chaep T2 OR T3 IN THE NEXT 3-6 MONTHS

The parallels to the organ market are deep and troublesome...

As younger players stopped playing them, moved on to synths, they gradually turned into über-expensive niche items designed specifically to soak the retiree market out of every dollar they could con out of their addled hands and minds. Practical features started giving way to pretty colored lights in all KINDS of colors, and emphasis was placed on features specifically designed for people that could NOT play...

Sound familiar?!

Hey.........wait a minute. Didn't you say you used to be in the home organ business? Is this a confession of the way YOU used to do it?

Donny, your starting to sound like a Yamaha Fanboy. How does Fran let you get away with that????

To keep Fran quiet, Donny has threatened to show photos of Fran's unusually situated R o land tattoo.

Fran knows me very well.....at the drop of a hat I'll throw gear out the window and change direction immediately...honestly, I'm very fickle and many times Fran has been my anchor to bring me back down to earth & I love him for that, he's so much more patient then me..like I said, I'm waiting now for the Tyros4 trickle down effect for the new
S series, as I enjoyed the T4 demos posted today....BUT,.....if something comes down the pike in the meantime (61keys of course) I will certainly look closely at it to serve my needs as well......enjoy what you play or what you been playing for the last 10 years

The T4 sounds great. The demos are very good and the drums have definately been upgraded. Loved that piano sound . I dont know if people with the T3 should be dumping them though as the sound and the styles are all too similar to each other. I think if i had a T1 or T2 the decision would be easier. Unfortunately the Tyros range still are inadequate for me in terms of an all in one arranger due to the under spec'd sequencer and sound editor but in a studio that would not matter.

Best of luck to yamaha. They have certainly created a buzz about their latest offering by the amount of comments here and elsewhere. They must be doing something right as far as marketing is concerned .

I am sure much great music will be made on the T4 as could equally have been made on the T3. Have fun whatever instrument you play.

Has the question been answered "Do the Tyros 4 styles work on the Tyros 3 S910 units also"?....or not?... or will it be a Style trade frenzy again!

Dnj, the T4 styles will appear on psrtutorial at some point anyway won't they? All the T3 styles are there so I'd suspect the T4 will turn up there too.

I don't think the styles are downwardly compatible, so Tyros4 styles won't work in a Tyros3 or an S910...the T4 uses SA voices (the T3 does not) and different mega voices in the styles.

Of course, there are always those who cleverly make converters, so maybe they will be available eventually, although the styles won't quite have the same presence.

More importantly, all the Tyros1/2/3 styles will work in the Tyros4 as well as the premium voices.

Ian

Hmmmmmm?....now that is disappointing and definitly a big selling & upgrading point...."Not the same Presence" is the key....... could
More be LESS?....in this situation, maybe many people want simpler real sounding styles vs all the fluff of the new tyros 4....chorus/vocals/scats etc, etc, .. or maybe gearing T4 more towards modern music you woulod hear today be a better choice....?

Disappointing? It is normal for the styles in newer model keyboards to not work in the earlier ones...it has been that way for all manufactures.

Someone found a way to make the Tyros3 styles work in a Tyros2 and Tyros, plus the relevant PSR, so it might be that someone will do it again with the Tyros4.

Ian

As I sit here and eat pretzels & jalapeno cheese with a glass of Chianti I can see your points Ian....but its the "PRESENCE" of the styles in another KB that losses it edge!

[img]http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26819.0;attach=8773;image[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-17-2010).]

That is to be totally expected. No surprise there at all. All that would be going on in conversions that do work in earlier keyboards would simply be to strip out unsupported features. There is no reason a manufacturer would create styles that don't support new hardware features. That would make no sense at all.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 09-17-2010).]

You are going to hear a somewhat greater difference between a T4 style and a T4 style backwards converted for a T3 or S910 than you have had in the past, I fear.

SA voices in a style is a considerable jump in technology (mind you, Korg has had it since the new OS update, and I have no doubt Yamaha COULD have done it with an update for the T3, too, but that's not the 'Yamaha Way' ) and the style itself will contain much data specific to the SA triggering that will not be relevant to the T3/910.

Add to that that MANY of the new styles use the new vocal sounds (overuse them, IMO) that the T3/910 doesn't have, and the new kits... I can see a while before they figure out how to make these backwards compatible...