... with their FLAGSHIP Keyboard only?

Ketron (SD1 - SD1Plus - AUDYA)?

Korg (Pa800/Pa1XPro - Pa2XPro)?

Roland (G1000 - G70 - G70V2/E80)?

Yamaha (Tyros - Tyros 2 - Tyros 3 - Tyros 4)?

Please keep your answers to the above keyboards ONLY. Another thread addresses which company has made great leaps forward in the Arranger world in general, but this one addresses the above keyboards ONLY!!

aj you have mail

Ahh, misunderstood..thought it was any, but it seems arrangers only. In that case I withdraw my MS comment



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 09-21-2010).]

None of them... Baby steps, all the way.

Perhaps if you had included previous TOTL models to those lists, there might have been more to work with (BTW, you forgot the VA76 between the G1000 and the G70), but all of those are just incremental increases, IMO. Plus, they don't all follow the same timeline (G1000 precedes them ALL).

OK, OK, I guess if you HAVE to pick one, I'd say Yamaha. SA is a completely new technology to arrangers. SD1 had audio loops, Audya has audio loops, PA2Xpro didn't get DNC until an upgrade, and has no samples to leverage it... The timeline is longest in Roland's case, and the G70 v3 (forgot that update? ) is, IMO a FAR more significant change in overall SOUND than the others, but it took longer, so no cigar...

But using the word 'leap' is a bit of a stretch for most of these, I fear...

Definitely none of the manufacturers you mentioned. Its apparent there are two manufacturers missing from your list, both who offer open ended technology and who have continually upgraded their systems. Many of those upgrades were free as well.

However, BOTH their sales are so minuscule in comparison, they hardly bear comparison with this list. If you want to compare basic, untweaked sound OOTB, both of them also have difficulty competing with arrangers at the START of AJ's list, let alone those on the end

AJ provided a thread where the list was open (and I made my opinion there in favor of the open arrangers), but this thread is obviously about mainstream, widely available arrangers designed for the vast majority of arranger users, that is, those that want it to sound great WITHOUT working for months to sound as good as a BOTL arranger, let alone a TOTL...

But the minute anyone heard their demos .....it was a dead deal and wouldn't continue to pursue a purchase....how many people own one of teh two open-ended units vs an arranger workstation?

Everyone knows the answer to this. Only Ketron have pushed forward and introduced anything that feels worthy of the 21st century. The rest are recycling 80s technology, een if they are doing it well.

20th century technology has some distinct advantages over the audio stuff. If it is done well, it's hard to tell from audio (take a listen to any BFD or EZDrummer demo), and still retains FULL editing capabilities. For every advantage that loops give, there are two pretty bad disadvantages.

If you go with previous models defenetely Korg I30 but for the rest maybe Audya with Loops and
also PA800 and on with the Guitar Mode and few other things.

Since we are picking arrangers, and not synths or workstations, I'd have to say Yamaha, and not just because I work for them, and/or use their products.

In fact, I work for them because I like their products.

The introduction of Mega voices, and Super Articulated Voice generations one and two, are the major advances.

Ketron comes in a late second with their recently developed audio based styles, although the technology is still not as good as it could be.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-22-2010).]

Although I still own a Korg and used to own a Ketron, I'm with Ian on this one.

I think Yamaha have created the most complete keyboard out there that wouldn't sound out of place in whatever arena or audience you play in. Maybe the same could be said for Ketron as well but the Yamaha seems to be more attractive to play.

Whenever I've owned a Yamaha, I've always never thought it dominated in any one area, it's been balanced right through and I have always found a style or sound that's useable for all the music I play where as with my Korg or Ketron, it ranged from sounding exceptionally brilliant to really horrid or I struggle to find a sound or style that was suitable. I've never had this problem with the T3, every day I find something that's better than I found the day before about it. Amazing keyboard.

I think Roland has made a step backwards in recent years..

Ketron has made progresiion with their audio styles.

Yamaha has made progression with their SA2 and other solo sounds

Korg has made progression with their User interface and overall functionallity and sound edditing.


But alltogether they have created the possibillity for companies like Lionstracs to gain a fair market share over the next few years.

Haven't seen a Tyros 4, but Audya hands down has done the most lately of the ones mentioned.
About the only criticisms I hear are from fans of other companies who have never touched an Audya.
DonM

I have already HEARD the Audya, at its' best... I don't need to TOUCH it to know what it sounds like. And I don't need to touch it to know that the loop issues are a part of using one. And I don't need to touch one if I have to make a 15 hour round trip just to find a dealer with one in his store!

No amount of playing it is going to make its' issues go away. I KNOW it sounds great, but that isn't the ONLY thing I need in an arranger.

And, bachus, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Roland hasn't made ANY steps with TOTL arrangers in the last few years! The G70 and E80 were definitely better than previous Roland's (with the exception of the Chord Sequencer, and that was dropped LONG before the G70 came out), so I'm not sure where you come up with a step BACKWARDS...

You've got to be IN the race to LOSE the race...!

I would say Yamaha, due to the fact of their SA voices which help normal players to get great results.

Bill

I would have to give this one to Ketron.
The implementation of audio loops for more than one track in a style IMO is a major step forward from the SD1 product.
Also, the ability to have audio guitar and other chord instruments follow your cords in real time is very forward looking from the SD product.
Yamaha with their T1 to the T2 gets the second prize for the implementation of SA voices.
Although it is something good, SA is just a sophisticated way of velocity switching and legato programming. It is an extension of sound manipulation that has been around for decades.

Roland and Korg have not done anything revolutionary from one TOTL arranger to the other with in the past 8 years.


------------------
I have shortened my ID to TTG

From a "Value" proposition, I would say that the Korg Pa2xpro is a leap forward in arranger technology. Across the board, look at the features and compare to every other keyboard. The Korg comes standards with

Color motorized touch sensitive screen.
TC Helicon Voice Processor
DNC / RX Voices
Korg M3 Synth engine and probably the best synth out of the whole group.
Included Hard Disk
the Best Songbook function
Usable Multi-Function Sliders
USB Thumbdrive jack just where it SHOULD BE!!
Balanced Inputs
Guitar Mode
4 Effects Processors with a choice of 125 effects
Double MP3 Player / Recorder
Most Configurable Operating System

All of the above at the LOWEST price point of all the keyboards mentioned!

I think its the opposite, Audio loops are nothing new, uses 1993 technology and its
user interface and controlls completely suck. I want someone to REALLY tell me whats new on the Audya.

Oh, by the way i've touched many Audyas and know the system to the Core.

Well,
This is a tough one as each one has made some great strides in specific areas.

The open system ones have the most potential..but lack CONTENT...that's why the demos suck. Great function, little good content..because it cost lots of $$$.

OK, how about Wersi...To be able to play Yamaha styles WITHOUT conversion...I think that's pretty smart because of all the available content.

Lee S.

TTG, SA2 is quite a bit more than velocity and legato switching... It also includes rules for intervalic switching, and also physical switches too (not sure, but that might include footswitches, too).

In all fairness, that's about the same as many VSTi's with articulation control..

The reason why I chose SA over audio loops or Korg's DNC is that it is FAR more mature than those technologies currently are. Ketron need better technology to allow the audio loops to be more than the incomplete system they are now, and Korg have yet to leverage the DNC capabilities with sounds and samples designed for it. Technological capability is only as good as its' implementation, and the IDEA of Ketron's audio loops is fabulous, but its' implementation leaves a LOT to be desired, so far...

I can't say for sure but I will say that when I had my Tyros and played out at a gig not many people ask if it was me or memorex. Now that I have the Audya 5 people can't wait to take a close up of it and hear some more, so Ketron must have something that grabs up the attention that other arrangers don't. So all you Korg, Yamaha and Roland guys admit it, Audya blows all the others right out of the park, IMHO of course. My brother has an old psr-550 and through my sound system sounds the same as the Tyros I had, so whats up with that? in fact the tyros 3 still uses many of the same old styles as that old psr-550 so Yamaha has made very little progress if any at all.

You win. Enjoy what you have.
DonM

EVEN IF AUDYA DIDN'T USE LOOPS IT STILL SOUNDS BETTER THAN THE REST OF THE PLASTIC TOYS OUT THERE.I HAD A TYROS AND AFTER ABOUT A MONTH I DIDN'T EVEN CARE IF I PLAYED IT ANYMORE. THE STYLES AND SOUNDS ARE A BORE. I CAN'T SEE WHY ANYONE THAT HAD A TYROS AND SOLD IT WOULD WANT TO BUY ANOTHER ONE JUST FOR THE SAKE OF A COUPLE NEW SOUNDS AND STYLES HOPING THEY ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE JUST TO BE DISSAPPOINTED AGAIN AND WAIT FOR THE NEXT MODEL.

Not because I have one, but I think the PA800 series from the PA80 is quite a jump:

1. Superb Songbook
2. TC Helicon
3. Improved sounds
4. Vastly improved OS

I wanted so bad to take the PA80 live, but the OS was silly and impossible for live play, so I stuck with Yammy.

When the 800 arrived, it was like an entirely new product (IMO) and a live player's dream.