Normally the product cycle of Yamaha was 3 years, now it only is 2 years...

It can mean two things, Yamaha has started developing their next Gen Arranger and has released a keyboard containing all possible upgrades they could give the Tyros line

Or, soon there is another brand comming with a new keyboard that outperforms their T4 in almost any way possible. And now they are trying to lure customers intoo buying their product before they get a chance to realise that something better is soon comming out.

At this rate buying used ever release is the way to go.

Bachus,
Maybe both.
Korg will IMHO come with DYNAMITE soon.
Yes, I have a little inside info I can not share.

Lee S.

Jim,

A product cycle of two years isn't anything new for Yamaha, and other manufacturers changed their cycles as well.

The PSR-7000 (1995) was only two years the junior of the PSR-8000 (1997)...the CVP series used a two year cycle from 1991 to 1997, for example.

Perhaps you could investigate what was happening with the competitors at those times, and maybe there may be a reason.

Ian

I don't believe Yamaha pays any attention at all to the competitors. They do their own thing and it has always worked for them.
DonM

With technology changing faster than ever, why wait longer to release it. I can't wait to get my Tyros4. Many disagree here, but I think all the improvements over Tyros3 (I have one.) it's the right time for Yamaha to release the new model. If this starts a new 2 year pattern, then all the better. Those who aren't interested in Tyros4 might only have to wait 2 more years for the next offering. -charley

You just did!!!
Now we know we are pregnant and expecting!
What about delivery time? What does the doctor estimates?

Any company still in business has always 'done their own thing and it has always worked for them', I'm afraid. Nothing unique to Yamaha for doing this...

But the drop in product cycle time has GOT to have a reason. Personally, from a marketing standpoint, I feel that the most likely explanation is less than expected sales of the T3...

I certainly remember a MUCH greater sense of excitement and 'wow factor', and a lot more purchases, proud user demos, and just general level of excitement on this forum when the T2 was released, but the T3 seemed somewhat subdued by comparison. Perhaps not quite a big enough leap over the previous T to generate the excitement that the T2 had done...?

As little as Yamaha had to do physically to the T3 case, and the remainder of the improvements being primarily software, it seems to make sense for Yamaha to try and up their product cycle to bring out the T4, and maybe recapture the 'wow!' that the T2 had, and somehow the T3 failed to generate. That doesn't mean the T3 was a failed instrument (before Ian's head explodes!), but user response is user response, and I don't think anyone unbiased would argue that the T2 generated a LOT more excitement than the T3.

I simply hope that Yamaha don't drop into a regular two year cycle... I simply don't see the market as able to absorb that. Part of the value you get from any purchase is how many years you get out of it before it is obsolete, and reducing that window by a whole year changes the equation quite significantly. Even if you are skipping generations, you will have gone from six years to four, a 33% reduction in value. Pretty significant, IMO...

Yamaha haven't used this level of cycle for 15 years or more. If everything that Yamaha does is good, it is hard to find an explanation for them changing what they do. Either it's good now, or it was good then, but it can't be BOTH!

I simply feel bad for those that bought a T3 recently, watching the value of their purchase plummet through no fault of their own. I hope that the other manufacturers don't start to follow this trend...

Well, if you go by your survey of how many Tyros3's were sold, it might possibly be easy to say that's the reason...

I sold more Tyros3's than Tyros2's and had less time to sell them, so it's fair to say, at least in my area, that the former was quite successful.

My most successful PSR was the PSR-3000, followed very closely by the new S910...did two clinics last week.

Looking back on Yamaha's product history, two year cycles appear more often than three, in regards to TOTL arrangers, and for CVP-series piano based arrangers..

Here is the History of Products. http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/chron.php

Check it out for yourself, and see what you can come up with.

Ian

Ian,
What are these Clinics? We have nothing here they call that...is it marketing, music lessons, how to??
Lee S.

Clinics are set up at the local store in town...I bring in a Tyros, PSR-S-series, and sometimes use a CVP that is in store stock.

The instrument's displays are put up on a larger screen, and questions on the instruments are invited, and I usually give a style editing tutorial.

Demos are usually just me playing and showcasing features, a bit like what Martin Harris does (although he plays much better than I) on YouTube.

I generally have a singer or two present to showcase the vocal harmony...sometimes it turns into a Karaoke session for a while...it's all presented with humor, detail and fun...fun being the most important aspect.

Sometimes we'll combine the two with the clinic following the demo, and sometimes we set everything up in a church hall, or auditorium to show how the Stagepas perform.

I was trained many years ago by Claude Dupras when we were still selling Electone, and I modified the format for arranger keyboards.

Ian

PS...I should mention I spend an evening with the staff, or the keyboard persons, and we go through demo techniques...lots of times I learn quite a bit from them.





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-22-2010).]

Ah...Marketing....you go to the shop to assist in selling instruments.

OK, I see...and that is great as it does sell instruments.

After listening to your work over the last few years and your detailed knowledge...it's no wander that Yamaha sells lots up there in your neck of the woods.

If you were doing the same using Korg PA's there would be lot's of sales of those.

The Clinics are what is MISSING most places, and when the stores here stopped doing them with organs...that was the end of the era.

How many people typiclly show up?
What age group?

Lee S.

Lee,

Most of the independent and chain music stores in the Mid-Atlantic region of the U.S. put on clinics for every type and brand of instrument made. I've seen advertisements for drum clinics, guitar clinics, keyboard clinics, you name the instrument, and there has been an in-store clinic put on during the past couple years. And, in every case, there's usually a pro player that is sponsored by a manufacturer.

The clinics usually feature not only demonstrations of how a particular instrument performs, but additionally, technical tips that often apply to any brand. I saw a guy in a local music store showing young brass players how to properly clean their instruments without damaging the pads. He also demonstrated the proper way to install reeds and showed them ways to check valve contact with the valve seats.

Guitar clinics are very frequent in this part of the world--often once a month. Martin, Fender, Yamaha and others put on incredible in-store demonstrations showing proper ways to tune guitars so they didn't go out of tune so often, ways to protect strings from corrosion, neck adjustment, you name it.

Lots of younger folks attending, and sometimes they're accompanied by some old farts like me. I think the reason they bring the old farts, though, is because they are the ones with the money.

Cheers,

Gary

Yes, I suppose it is "marketing", but it sure is fun, it generates a lot of interest...even the "other" brand arrangers being sold in the store benefit.

The sales staff get a good idea how to showcase an arranger, and many times, I have learned more than a few tricks from them.

I did the same type work for Roland using the E-series, especially the E-70...I met Luigi Bruti, who was doing the launch of the E-70...he is a fantastic accordion player, and he even had an accordion midi'd to the E-70...Flight of the Bumblebee was one of his demo tunes, if I recall. Awesome!

He may still work for them.

Clinics usually attract about 25-50 people, mostly between the ages of 40 and 70, although there are sometimes quite a few outside that range.

Clients are generally retired, good pensions, former players (accordion, organ, synth, piano) and are generally advanced home players wanting something to do to enjoy their spare time.

I also get quite a few guitar players, usually pros, that want a midi orchestra, but want to make their own SMF...a few are song writers, and the styles really help doing quick, but full, demos.

One guy I sold an S910 to last year, is a fiddle player.

I do the four Atlantic provinces.

I have never played a Korg arranger...well, to be fair, I did play one of the old 61 key I-series many years ago...I remember it had a great sax sound, and the styles could be re-voiced very quickly...you could have a rock band doing a big band style, for instance.

Generating interest, good presentation and follow-up is what sells arrangers.

Ian

Finally...

Got little to do with sound, capability, and size...

When 'generating interest, good presentation and follow-up' was applied to home organs, the same kinds of people happily bought 600 lbs. behemoths that NEVER got moved. When it is applied to 'piano-based arrangers' (your definition, not mine!), people are happy to play big heavy 88-based arrangers.

In YOUR area, it is being applied so 61 note arrangers, but, with your talent, if it was being applied to just about any OTHER variant of keyboard, you would be saying whatever you sold was the OBVIOUS thing that company should be making...

I am sure you could sell refrigerators to the Inuit, but that wouldn't necessarily prove that that's what they NEED the most!

Harp all you like Diki...they ain't makin' a 76 note TOTL arranger.

Ian

And aren't you ECSTATIC about that, Ian..?!

Careful, that lack of empathy is starting to show...

Not really Diki, but I am serene.

I go with the flow, one day at a time.

I know you're having a difficult time accepting Yamaha's decision to remain at 5 octaves, and I am sympathetic, but I am also realistic, and I hope you realize that no amount of your hooping and hollering, or badgering will change the company's policy or direction.

If you must do some soapboxing, why not start a campaign to force Roland into making a replacement for the elderly G-70?

You, by your own admission, aren't exactly enamored with Yamaha's smooth detailed sound, so why not crusade the company whose arrangers you like and support?

It's simply awful seeing you so frustrated over a company whose products you don't even like.

Peace,

Ian

Wrong, on so many counts, Ian...

I have long told you that there is much I admire about Yamaha arrangers, and that its' sound would be the perfect compliment to certain types of gigs, that SA2 technology is amazing, Mega Voices raise the bar for style accuracy, Guitar NTT's make strummed and picked parts way more realistic, and the list goes on and on.

I have also said many times I would buy an S910 76 in a flash... I don't get where you think I am so anti-Yamaha. If I wouldn't buy one even if they DID make a 76, I certainly wouldn't go through this painful process with you...

There is no-one at Roland posting publicly on any forum about arrangers that I know about, or trust me, he would be getting the FULL benefit of my writing! But you have chosen to be the public apologist for Yamaha Corporation, so you get the benefits that accrue with that mantle.

I guess the difference between us is that, if there were something that you wanted Roland Corp. to do, and it didn't impact what I needed from them, I would join in and AGREE with you, and be as frustrated that your needs were being ignored. I have NEVER felt that everything Roland do is just peachy perfect, and anyone wanting something they don't do is an idiot. I get that impression from you constantly...

I might also add that before ANY new feature is added to an arranger, there is someone crying out for that feature, and there is someone else saying that feature is totally unnecessary. But AFTER that feature is added, mysteriously, its' detractors suddenly turn out to be not NEARLY so concerned about it. In fact, many adopt it enthusiastically...

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, the mouse gets eaten by the owl. I know you are getting frustrated by my single-minded emphasis on this issue, but has it ever occurred to you that your rabid defense of the defenseless position is what perpetuates this discussion..? By positioning yourself as the Yamaha apologist and defender of the faith, you automatically make yourself the target of whoever has issues with Yamaha's illogical decision to ignore this market segment, or any other Yamaha niggles, to be honest.

But, were you simply to show some sympathy, some empathy, and leave excusing Yamaha's policies to Yamaha, this back and forth would have quit ages ago. You'd like to see a newer, better G series, I'd like to see a newer, better G series... not really all that much to get worked up about. But were I to take you to task for wanting something Roland are not doing, and coming up with transparently false 'reasons' to justify their actions (all the while, you know I don't REALLY have any inside knowledge anyway), and that might be a recipe for the same thing going on here.

While Yamaha continue to make 76 arrangers, but refuse to allow their TOTL technology to be used by them, I guarantee I will continue to berate them for doing this. And I am doing so because I WANT ONE!

Good luck.

Ian

Thanks, Ian...

Mind you, putting your not inconsiderable weight behind this need, rather than shooting it down constantly MIGHT help it happen

I don't have any sympathy, empathy, or need any excuses for those who can't accept reality.

I wish you all the best of luck on your little campaign. I really do.

Just so you know, I've put in many requests for a 76'er, either in Tyros or PSR-S series. Still do.

The reality is they are not going to make one.

I'm using the words "are not" instead of "No" because you haven't yet grasped the latter, and maybe two words will work better than one.

Ian

I think King Frog summed it up quite nicely on another thread...





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-23-2010).]

Gary,Ian,
WOW...I wish somene around here would do the clinics like you are having in your area.
It would be fun! It wouls be great to go to them to meeet locals with similar interests and maybe even visit one a nothers homes etc.

Sweetwater sound is 20 minuts from me and they do a lot of Guitar stuff...but not much keyboard. Once a year they have gearfest and the mfgs do come...Last one Korg and Roland were there with everything including arrangers..Yamaha didn't even bring a T3...only Motif!

Non of the sales folks at Sweetwater know th arrangers and do not demo them. Afer all they are PRO audio and arrangers are not typically used in live music on stage (Rock Groups)

Damn it's boring around here!

Ian...want to move to Indiana??
Lee S.

It's a shame because you have to sell a few guitars to make the same profit as selling one high-end arranger.

I also do on-line followups to clients, and answer any questions...sometimes it's over the phone...I also direct them to YPKO and PSR Tutorial.

Many of my clients have become friends due to the clinics, and help each other.

Thanks for the invite, Lee...Cape Breton Island is a pretty awesome place to live...I'm stuck here willingly.

Ian

I am still waiting for an answer to how making a 76 is going to 'mess' with Yamaha's current users... (particularly as they ALREADY make several 76's and 88's)

Are they all going to see one and run screaming from the store?

"The sky is falling... the sky is falling!"

As with all manufactures you don’t have to prove concept to musicians or engineers, just THE ACCOUNTANTS, and no matter what statistics you come out with, unless you can prove profit with virtually no risk, they will just politely tell you to go away.
So get your accountancy hat on and prove your assumptions and beliefs, or continue to bang your head against the wall.

Bill

It may be that the people who buy Tyros in the UK (and this is a big home user market) have the money available and are willing to spend it on something they enjoy, after a couple of years they are ready for change. It would be a nightmare trying to get them to do a Ketron type upgrade as they are mostly in their late 70s and up. Changing after two years keeps them loyal to Yamaha, otherwise they run the risk of losing customers to the competition.

The way I see it is there is likely a $1500 spread between a used T3 and a new T4. Many will upgrade to the T4 just as the T3 outsold the T2. I think Yamaha feels that a three year upgrade cycle places too much of a financial gap between upgrades. A T2 to T4 would be quite a stretch. The additional features may or not be worth the $1500. But if one can afford a $4000 toy or tool they can afford a new one for $1500 or so every two years,

I do this with DAW software. I upgrade every other year because the price is the same. Only I cannot sell my old version. So for $150 I get the new $500 version (which in reality contains many extras and softsynths samplers etc anyway wirth the UG price.

When I finally see the official dealer -10% price I will subtract $500 and someone will get a slamming deal on a T3. In fact anyone who would be in the market for a 910 would be foolish to pass on a T3 for a few hundred more. and I would be foolish not to buy a T4 for a few hundred more than that.

I won;t so the same with the Motif because The Tyros covers based the new Motif has. As well the Motif XS will be getting most of the Software upgrades of the XS, Yamaha wants to make a show of supporting legacy products.

The T4 is worth a look for anyone who is interested. I am disappointed Yamaha added an XLR port but no Phantom power. That is kind of foolish but the European market was asking for this $3 upgrade...LOL. I plugged an SM58 into mine and it sounded just fine with the hi impedance jack.....Yamaha got off easy on that. I would have also liked to see 8 audio tracks of on board recording with the massive HDs available......but still only two and still no direct to USB recording to my knowledge. The flash ROM (from the XF) is a great idea.

I use mine solely at home. It has never seen the light of day outside the house and I have the mike and preamp covered...but I think they should have offered the opportunity to plug an Beta 87 into the thing for live use.

I have to disagree on this. There is no such thing as a "LOYAL user". If a competitor has the same product or better product with better service or more importantly a better price, they would switch in a heartbeat. There are countless studies and research on brand loyalty; that is the HOLY GRAIL of the sales and marketing industry.

I agree and that is why Yamaha takes care of their OWN first. Yamaha has not had a serious "competitor" in years and they do just enough to keep it that way. Those studies apparently did not take into account Yamaha RAISED prices last year while Korg LOWERED prices by far more. Of course people will seek the best and you prove my point. TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN and give them no reason to switch. for everyone who leaves Yamaha another likely two go to Yamaha. You build loyalty buy providing what YOUR customers want. Not what some guy using an old Roland wants....or someone who loves their Audya or PA2x. They made their choices. you cannot have everyone on your side so you take care of those who are there already first.

They know they would sell more Tyros to those playing other brands "if only they had 76 keys" and yet still ignore that fact. because their own surveyed user base are not asking for it. They are not asking for metal casing. They do want a light keyboard to carry around and at home they likely have CVPs, XS8 or CP300s for the 88 weighted keys.

Home users have more than one keyboard in the house. I sell 900s to CVP owners routinely because they have Winter homes here and miss their CVP. LOL

You serve YOUR customers first THEN you seek more. No one has the customer support Yamaha has. No company is as customer centric as Yamaha. Yamaha is the only company that actually makes most of the instruments they sample!! They know what a piano is. This I have learned since working in an environment where Roland and Korg are vendors and yet there are no Roland keyboards and one Korg M50 and a Korg PA500 sat for more than that while MM6,MO and all the Yamaha arrangers are turned over. Needless to say A smart store owner carries what they sell more of. Yamaha supports the products by sending Baartmans and Product specialists and clinics to the stores. Roland and Korg send sales personnel touting the benefits of the M3 and Fantom both of which have their loyal albeit smaller user groups. I was a Kork loyalist for years. M1, Triton.....so much so I paid $1000 more for a Korg bought from Frank before we were dealers, than a new T3 would have cost me.I had the PA2x....before the Tyros for a month or so and did not like the "raw live" sound. I preferred the quality of output on the Tyros. I even paid $1000 more for the Korg PA2X because we were not Korg dealers than. But I was playing a Tyros 2 at the store then coming home to the Korg....I sold the Korg and bought the T 3. and the XS8. Now I will buy the T4 and keep the X8 beast because Yamaha will support it with FW from the XF .

People who do not use Yamaha seem to have a disdain for the product and Yamaha's success. Yamaha would see that clearly reading this forum. They have 47% of the WS market and who knows how much of the TTL Arranger market worldwide. They need to keep those numbers up and the way to do that is take care of your own and others will follow. Clinics..Clinics.. From what I read in this very forum. Non Yamaha users have little to say good about them whether its the key count or drums, or the over processed, weak dynamic range, slick mixes.
However Many MORE Yamaha users buy then FOR those very reasons.

Some will never see the value. Some including myself think the 900 is too good in relation to the Tyros..LOL But Yamaha will sell truckloads of the Tyros 4 to those who will sell their Tyros 3s for as little as $250 more than a new 910. Anyone looking for a 910 would be foolish not to take that deal if they could find it.






[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 09-24-2010).]

Or, in Yamaha's case, you serve your customers first, then you STOP looking for more.

No doubt..Yamaha is a fine company...giving their customers just enough to keep them!

That kind of thinking can and DOES backfire.

Lee S.

You won;t find Tyros at GuitarCenters anymore either. Only Yamaha CVP and Piano dealers

I sure would love to read an example of a company taking care of their own customers backfiring. Korg and Roland dropped the ball. Their customer Service was terrible. cDell computers the same. When you call Yamaha you get a knowledgeable person and you get the numbers of those who frequent the boards. Not some Indian with a computer script. I have had Yamaha support personnel call customers at home after hours to resolve an issue.

Yamaha recently GAVE a customer of mine a new 910 because their one year old 900 screen went out and she was without it for 3 months...while parts were backordered.

What do you have against Indian people?

Nothing unless there at the other end of the phone, I got a big prolem with something...I can't understand them well...they don't know the product..and when I say I can't understand them they tell me..'MY ENGLISH IS FINE'!

Kingfrog...You missed my point...It's not that you should not take care of your customers...you damn better!

It's that if competition comes along and does it better OR gets customers you don't have (or gets them away from you) because you don't pay attenion to their needs/requirements etc. Short term thinking.

You ever heard of IBM Corp.?
If it can happen to them...t can happen to anyone.

Lee S.



[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 09-24-2010).]