In a lot of the discussions, we keep hearing about Yamaha’s market research and how they don’t want 76 key good arrangers.
When did that market make a drastic change?
Remember Yamaha did their market research and created the PSR 9000 pro (which was 76 keys).

And, it does not appear that that market disappeared because, other brands continued making 76 keys first when they made their TOTL arranger.

Roland went from the G1000 to the G70 both were 76 keys.
Korg went from the PA1x pro to the PA 2x pro both were 76 keys.
Ketron went from the SD1+ to the Audya both were 76 keys.
Lionstrack started with the Mediastation which was 76 keys.
So persons need to think logically and think where is Yamaha getting their research from and are they asking the right questions?
Or, are they just saying they are not creating a good 76 key arranger because of the PSR 9000 pro?

What gives.



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I have shortened my ID to TTG

You ask a predominantly elderly bunch of 61 note arranger players, or refugees from home organs (which had either 61 or even 49 note keyboards) what they want, you are ALWAYS going to get '61' as the answer.
Yamaha already THINK they are catering to 76 and 88 note players with their watered down arrangers posing as home pianos (despite being functionally identical to 76 arrangers, albeit crippled ones), and probably have the attitude of 'if you need a better arranger, there's always the Tyros or PSR line'

It's like asking a bunch of motorbike riders whether they want a four wheel bike... They already MADE their decision to ride bikes, a LONG time ago.

If Yamaha want to do some REAL market research, they should ask owners of 76 arrangers from OTHER brands whether, if they made a GOOD 76, would anyone buy it..? I think they would find a COMPLETELY different answer than asking people ALREADY happy with 61's.

The only way you are going to find out where Yamaha is getting their research, and if they are asking the right questions, is to sit down with (or contact) the Yamaha marketing research team and ask them precisely what you want to know.

If you know another way, please tell us.

Ian

As if they are going to tell ANY of us...!

Ian...That's a freeking laugh!

No way are they going to share that...
OK, I'll bite..please give us the contact info...I'll call them Monday AM.

I'll be very polite and honorly.

Lee S.

It is a laugh, Lee, and an exercise in futility.

No company would share that information...not Roland, Ketron, Lionstrack, Casio or Korg.

Maybe Genny knows something we do not.

Ian

Thats what i said...

Yamaha is only protecting their market and not trying to expand anymore...

Well, in the end everyone gets what they deserve...

genesys. Yes the market is very much fragmented. There are many different types of buyers

1. entry level keyboards predominantly for children aimed at parents with a smaller budget. Portability will be important to this market hence in the mainthey are 61 keys or less. size and weight is important to this nice.

2. There are piano arrangers aimed at piano students that cant afford a full size piano with a limited budget also . These tend to be 76-88 keys geared towards piano play. Portability is not the main concern as this tends to be used as a static instrument as in not gigged with. Used mainly for practise at home. size and weight is less crucial to this niche as there is a general acceptance of some compromise to get the number of keys.

3. There arrangers for the more experimental/performer/producer/songwriter with deeper editing and music making functions that are generally more expensive than the former aimed at a different demographic than the former 2. This buyer is likely to have more expendable income but will have a completely different purchase cycle. They are also likely to own more than one keyboard which might fit their piano /workstation needs more fully . They also tend to hold onto their instruments longer and dont 'upgrade every 2-3 years'

4. There are arrangers aimed at the mature market who want the top of the range functions just because they can afford it.They tend to be retired elderly pople who have no mortgage, no children at home and lots of leisure time .They will purchase every new top of the range or the next but one. They have lots of expendable income and tend to be home users in the main and are sensitive to the size and weight of the instrument.


There will be lots of cross over within the niches generally but these are the main segments of the market. But what is key is that yamaha have a product that meets EVERY SINGLE DEMOGRAPHIC.


ask yourself this :

What other manufacturer covers the ENTIRE arranger/piano with arranger functions market ??

Does Korg ? Ketron ? Roland ?? Casio

The answer is a resounding no. The reason is that yammaha have found a balance/product mix where they are attempting (and succeeding) to maximise their market share and profitability accross the range of arranger keyboards. They do this buy aiming their particular products at the various niche markets in the overall arranger market. Their most expensive arranger keyboard is aimed at the market niche that has the expendable income and generally upgrade everytime or every time but one to the next top of the line arranger. This particular niche market generally does not want or need 76 to 88 keys. If they want one yamaha offer one in their product range already. And for those with deeper pockets there is the CVP.

Heres the thing and i have mentioned this a number of times before. Yamaha is wary of cannabalising sales from their product range and so are very carelful about what features they offer in the numerous segments or niches of the market. Adding 76 keys to their top of the line arranger may gain more cutomers (or not) but it may also lose sales from their other 76 key instrumnets and worse, may alienate their already well developed well segmented sales from their existing customers who are size and weight sensitive.

Other manufacturers may wish to try and compete by offering 76 key arrangers and if yamaha saw a way to do that and could make the most profit from it (without cannabilising existing sales elsewhere) they ould do it. Its not an emotional issue for yamaha as it is for some of us. If it made good business sense , it would be done.

Well explained Spalding

Bill

Spalding very good post.
We can agree on segment 1 3 and 4.
I don’t know that segment 2 would not be a part of segment 1 but has 76 keys.

Now having said all of that, witch segment does the Roland G1000-G70, Korg PA1xpro-2Xpro, Ketron SD1+-Audya and Lionstrack Mediastation fall in to?

See you have just explained Yamaha’s fragmented market the way Yamaha chooses to fragment the market.
But the real question is is the Yamaha market that much different from the Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstrack market?


And I think you have hit the nail on the head. The issue is not 76 vs 61 but the issue is size and weight.
I have always said that if Yamaha created a 76 key PSR S910 successor with the size and weight of the Casio WK7500, it would sell even more than the PSR S910. And it would not affect any other Yamaha fragmented market (your segment 2) because as you said they are for different users.
A 61 key T4 does not affect the market of 61 key PSR S910.


One statement that was troubling was your last paragraph.
Correct me if I am wrong but it implies that Yamaha will always make the right decision and all other manufacturers have made the wrong decisions..




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I have shortened my ID to TTG