Hi,
OK, so I have now listened to the T4 demos and I am a little disappointed with the drums.
In some styles I think the drums are allmost drained by the other sounds and it doesn't give that live feeling.
I listened to some other demos and even the E80 from Roland sounds much more live to me.
I thought that Yamaha would have improved their drums and I also listned to audya and well, what can I say T4 is behind in the drums. Just my thoughts!

That is a pretty much universal opinion (Ian excepted). I like Roland drums a lot, but Ketron's more.
Just about my only reasons for passing up the last few incarnations from Yamaha were the drums and vocal harmonizer. The Yamaha drums are fine for certain types of music, but for live, kicking R&R or Country, they fall short to my ears.
DonM

From the little that I've listened, I'd have to agree. But I think that is part of the Yamaha sound. Some people don't want loud up front drums. Perhaps, it's a good mix for background music but it sounds very bland to me. ¡no tiene sabor! (no flavor)

BTW, I wanted to thank the person that posted on the subject "how to make a Tyros sound more live"

I followed the instructions the best I could and my Tyros 2 sounds much better. I've been playing at the same fall festival for several years now that uses the same sound engineer- He thought I got a new keyboard, and I got the best audience response ever.

Unfortunatley I don't see an Audya in my future so I have to make the best with what I got. So I continue to remind myself, it's the player not the keyboard. Part of being a good keyboardist is knowing how to tweak the instrument to your taste.

and that is one BIG reason why i bought the AUDYA

I agree as well which is why I bought the XS8 and also use Superior Drummer to play back the Style drum MIDI information...Although some work OK. Depends on the music.

The T4 has an easy to use built-in drum mixer where it's easy to build your own kits / sound / effects. During the show both machines (T3 & T4) on stage and several comparision examples were shown. The 'hollow' or 'thin' sounding drums of T3 got much more body&details in T4.
The internet Youtube demos quality isn't sufficient to get a good impression. I was able to record some music directly from the T4 to HD ..... it sounds amazing!

I agree the Audya drums sound powerfull (perhaps TOO powerfull) but they show only a little variation per variation.

What drums a person likes is mostly a matter of taste.

Exactly!

I too auditioned the Yamaha. I have had them in the past and were always reliable, and have many available styles. I, also, just prefer the Audya styles and upfront sound.

Tyros, Audya, whatever, why can't you just lower the volume of the other sound parts of the style and turn up the drums/bass to acceptable levels? Doesn't the Tyros let you do that?

What interests me is not how the drum sits in a mix (that can be adjusted) but the quality of the sample.

The demo that highlights the brush drum kit sounds very authentic to my ears.

I like the T4 demos so far.

It would be interesting to hear comparisons of different top of the line keyboards with just drums soloing.

Beakybird

I don't understand Yamaha's logic nor their reasoning as to why they continue to put mediocre Drum Kits in their totl arrangers. You're paying through the nose for a 61 key flagship product (more costly than their comparable workstation line) and then they put in mediocre Drum Kits and spoil it all. I've really come to believe that Yamaha puts a distinction between their arranger customers from their workstation customers. Their workstation customers are obviously considered professionals because their workstation line offers both 76 & 88 key versions. Whilst their arranger customers are deemed elderly home hobbyists with significant hearing loss and too weak to lift anything over 27 lbs apparently. That's the only reason I can think of anyway. Even though Yamaha realizes that many arranger keyboardists play in a professional setting i.e. they gig with their Tyros/2/3/4. Doesn't seem to faze Yamaha though does it. The Drum Kits on both their mid and totl arrangers are their Achilles heel in my opinion. Quality Drum Kits are essential and instrumental in achieving that 'Live Band' sound yet Yamaha continues to fall short in that critical area again, needless to say. Some people might be okay with the T4 drums but when you really understand the difference between outstanding drum kits vs. mediocre drum kits it's hard to fathom why some people would slough it off and settle for "mediocre" over quality and resigning oneself to: "Oh, it's just typical Yamaha so I'll just go ahead and fork over $5,000 and have to put up with it I guess." To each his own I guess.

I would have most likely gotten a Tyros4 if it had 76 keys and better Drum Kits, even at its astronomical price point. On the other hand, if people are indeed pleased with Yamaha's latest effort then who am I to dissuade them from purchasing it? If you like it, more power to you! I'm sure Yammie will sell a boat load of them even with its apparent shortcoming(s). Maybe the Tyros 5 will finally have more than 61 keys and a gaggle of professional sounding drum kits who knows? Nah! I'm kidding myself right? Either way though, we'll have to wait three more years to find out.

Shucks, maybe the Tyros 9 could finally be the ticket? Nah, too soon most likely. Perhaps the Tyros 17 will finally strike pay dirt? And we'll all be 90 years old or older too unfortunately. There are other choices out there thank God. Hopefully Ketron, Korg and Roland will continue with 76 key versions and keep putting professional sounding Drum Kits and other high-end features in their totl arrangers like they're currently doing. Necessity is the mother of invention and I'm sure glad two of the Big Three and Ketron recognize that fact.

All the best,
Mike

Yamaha knows excactly what they are doing dont be fooled.... they will sell Thousands of Tyros 4 units worldwide...
with those "so Called" disappointing drums.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-04-2010).]

"What interests me is not how the drum sits in a mix (that can be adjusted) but the quality of the sample."

I agree. Especailly after making some of the adjustments that were sugested to get a more live sound, I'm much happier with my T2.

I get confussed sometimes, when people say that don't like a certain brands drums, are they taking about the sound, balance or what? For example someone told me that they didn't like the Yamaha country drums kits.

To me the sound of Yamaha drums sound nice, but the patterns/grooves/styles don't sound like a live band. The Audya drum patterns sound much more like the real thing.

I do like Beakybirds idea of just comparing a few audio samples of different drum patters.

I think the drums in T4 have come a long way compared to previous Tyros instruments..

Yamaha uses a lot of ambient sampling for the new drums and other sounds.. With ambient sampling you place the microphone further away from an instrument that allows it to also record some of the reflections from the instrument... previously Yamaha sampled from almost inside an instrument..

Many of the excisting drumkids have been upgraded and the new ones just sound great according to me and some friends of me that joined me on my visit to a T4 demo last saturday.. Anyway, you can't use youtube to get an excact opinion about a keyboards sound.

So where did you guys hear a T4 live?

Play a Yamaha BeBop Style ...."VARIATION 4"

listen to the drums...

PS...."Hi EQ" all your drum kits from
64 default to 105 & listen to those drum kits sizzle

Having played (and owned) nearly all the current models (T4 excluded), from my perspective, the drums on the Roland's and Audya seem to be about 20 to 30 percent louder than Yamaha, and a bit more harsh. And that's right out of the box.

Now, with only some minor tuning, if you wish, you can make the Yamaha drums just as loud as Roland's, but it takes a bit more work to make them harsh sounding.

Keep in mind that in all likelihood, the vast majority of keyboard owners DO NOT know how to tune their arrangers. I've communicated with players who have owned their boards for 5 years and never knew there was a mixing console, or a global EQ that could be tuned and saved as default. I've posted detailed instructions on how to create registrations and received PM thanks from hundreds of individuals that were completely unaware how to save specific song settings using the keyboard's onboard tuning features, all in a single registration.

All of this takes time to learn, and in this world of instant gratification a lot of folks are not willing to crack open the instruction manual and figure these things out.

For those of you who wish to hear all the keyboard's drum kits, I strongly suggest hearing them live--not a recorded sample over an Internet site. Spend the time and money and travel to Gorge Key's or Frank's stores, or if they're too far away, how about just visiting the nearest GC. Listen to the drums through the same sound system, and do it before and after tuning--there is a difference.

All of this, of course, is very subjective. Some players, and their audiences, enjoy the sounds of more subdued drums, while others may like them loud and harsh sounding. It's all a matter of personal preference, and as in many instances, there is no right or wrong, good or bad. Yamaha does it their way, Korg does it another way, Roland has their way, Audya has their way--all of which can be considered individualistic attributes of each particular manufacturer. If you like what you hear--buy it. If you don't like what you hear--don't buy it. It's that easy!

For me, personally, I try to keep an open mind about these things, therefore brand names play very little role in making a decision of which keyboard to use, or buy. I have a four-day open slot this month, during which time I'll either go sailing, or if the weather's nasty, drive to New England and look at a T4. To be perfectly candid, I'd rather go sailing.

Cheers,

Gary

The edit was for a spelling correction.

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 10-05-2010).]

Excellent post, Gary, and my sentiments exactly.

Ian

But Gary...you still spelled George's last name wrong..

A side by side comparison through the same sound system...answers any questions...

I wonder if the fella that bought my 3 day old Tyros3 is enjoying the keyboard..

Side by side only reveals that each company does things their own way, and the client/customer is free to choose what sounds best to them and what most effectively suits their needs.

I'll bet that the guy who bought your Tyros3 thinks you're bonkers for selling it.

However, I think you were wise to do so, since it clearly didn't appeal to you...Roland is what makes you happy, and you've made the right decision.

Ian

IMHO, I think most Yamaha PSR/Tyros customers do not want the drums in your face sound! If they did...they would be there!...don't ya think?

The Tyros MAIN customers is the previous organ player crowd and those that want a home keboard. Same people that do no like hearing music with screamig in your face guitars! I went to a Sher concert a few years back and all I heard all night is those Damn screaming guitars that overpowered everthing else in the room. COuld barely even hear er sing. The drummer was then next in your face loud sounds.

Terrible....

I'm sure if you do some tweeking you can get more in your face drums??

Me...I like very great realistic sounding drums & orchestral percussion...at the right volume in the mix, based on the music I'm playing.
But bring on the loud timapani, french horns, trombones & other instruments when needed.

Lee S.

Agreed!...Now theres a man who knows his music!!

Ian, not totally true...Side by side also shows differences between product from the same company...There is no better way to compare any two products...period..

I have done side by side comparison between the G1000 and G70
G70 and E-60
G70 and E-80
This gave me the chance to have an informed decision..I still have the G70..the others have new homes..


Since we mentioned comparison, I may as well tell the difference between the G70 and Tyros3 to me....The drums were no comparison to the G70...same as I found with the PSR900 and s910...

The sounds with the exception of a few outstanding sounds...did not compare with the G70, for realism...and the over all sound did not have the "feel" and "live " sound I am use to with the G70..

Other features that I have grown to accept as a "must" did not exist on the Tyros3..namely real time edits to styles and sequences....

I really do hope the fella is happy with the Tyros3...because I was happy spending the profit from the deal..

I knew the Tyros3 didn't have a prayers chance of being a "keeper" for me...Bought it right, and moved it with a small profit...Plus gave me the chance to "know" the differences in my "side by side" comparison..


Actually if more folks were willing to do side by side test..they may find some interesting things they were not aware of...

I tried to get UD to bring his PA800 in to my house while he was checking out the Prelude..just to compare what he thought may be a lack of bass handling in the built in speakers compared to the Korg..We will never know...he declined, just as he declined a comparison between the E-60 and the Pa800 a couple years ago..

Years ago , we always did side by side comparisons...I don't know what happened the last several years...but folks are reluctant to do so..and I really don't know why...

Side by side 10-11 years ago between the Ketron X1 and the G1000 showed me the sound and styles were better on the X1 than the G1000......but overall control of sequencing and certain sounds that I preferred were better on the G1000....And you will always read that I considered the X1 a great board...and continue to say that the drums and styles on Ketron are still the best...

Comparisons allowed me to understand this..so why not consider side by side with open minds...

I'm sure the guy is pretty happy, Fran...the Tyros3 is a deluxe arranger.

It's good to see you made a good profit as well...looks like you both came out ahead.

I had a friend's G-70 here for a few weeks...it was nice, but it didn't have that rich, smooth, and detailed sound I'm used to from Yamaha...I guess I'm spoiled.

He eventually sold the G-70 and bought a Yamaha...I believe it was an S900...he said the G-70 was way too much bother to move around. That seems to be a common complaint.

I'm glad you found a product that suits your needs.

For my needs, I have to say that the PSR-S910 meets them very well....I may even pass on a T4, although it sure will be a lot of fun demoing the latter.

Ian

Ian, do a side by side with the Tyros4...you may love the s910 even more..

Now THAT is funny....I have to believe you have not been up close and personal with a T4....or you have some serious hearing issues....Age tends to do that...

I will never understand whypeople who don't care for Yamaha spend so much time and energy veating them up..THEY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THIBK!!! LOL They will sell every board they make to their fan base who have few complaints
TheN again you were the guy who loved those funky $300 powered speakers

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-05-2010).]

Fran, when I get the Tyros45 I will do just that.

However, I really like the S910...I like it over a Tyros3...I just love the overall sound, features and portability.

No doubt the Tyros4 will blow it away in many areas, but perhaps not in the ones that are important to me.

Choosing an instrument is very personal.

Ian

All valid cmments IMHO...It really does depend on the sound you like. Or need.

We are lucky to have such great equipment by all the Mfgs..these days...they all are supeb sounding.

I am into high quality sounds that are very realistic...I play at home here..and don't need to get the floor moving with dancers...or take requests at Millers Merry Manner, or please the Bride. I want my perforances to sound more like an orchestra than a band. I want each instrument to stand out and be heard in the mix. I would rather have only 100 superb voices than 1150 with 10 good ones.

So far none of the arrangers I have had met these needs comepletely. Each has it's own strong sounds and poor ones...each has some that are done right and ones with technical problems....that you certainly can hear.

All in all pretty nice. It will be interesting to see what the future brings.

Lee S.

There's nothing wrong with Yamaha's drums. I am sure that if Yamaha really thought that their drums in their keyboards were poor they would have done something about it a long time ago, clearly there isn't and they haven't and hopefully they won't.

I've had a T3 since Feb and I can't fault it, it sounds beautiful. If I had an Audya, it would sound beautiful as well, but a different type of brilliance.

Keyboards can't end up sounding the same because what is the point of that if there wasn't a distinct difference between them all, it's about choice and what's good for your own music. There is probably music that you couldn't play as well on each board for different reasons, that's the beauty of having different types of sound samples from each instrument, it gives you that choice based on what suits you.

It's simple logic really and I can't understand why there is so many threads about Yamaha's drums, if you don't like them then move on...It's really that simple!

Enjoy playing music, that's all it's about and always will be about.

Kingfrog...Iam kidding Ian ..and he knows it..He will rather have the s910 over the Tyros4...want to bet..

As for the Podiums 802's yes still use them all the time....and they were $200 a pair ..not $300..

BTW: I have more experience in the musical instrument business than you do..so I can rely on what I know ..rather than what you think you know..

And I can hear you loud and clear...
PS: you spell check so we can get a better understanding of what you are trying to say..

To be fair, most of those complaining about Yamaha drums HAVE 'moved on', out of sheer necessity. But you can be assured, they are only complaining because there is so much ELSE that is really very good with Yamaha arrangers. Not much point singling out the drums if you hate everything ELSE, too..!

What REALLY astounds me is that, given that the Tyros's have a sampler, why Yamaha themselves haven't grabbed the best samples and kits out of the Motif line (or the DTX drum series) and created a compatible drum kit or two with the punch that these people like (Tyros is often poorly compared to the Motif line's drums, even by people that have BOTH) as a sampler load. Sell it for their usual inflated prices, and garner a whole boatload more Yamaha converts waiting (apparently interminably) for this ONE feature...

Another missed opportunity, IMO.

good point Diki,

why not give the Yamaha arranger world a CHOICE of the drums,
the existing + the MOTIF drums,

they may have kept a few of the AUDYA converts, just NOT me

I sincerely believe that if Yamaha provided an option where you could import the drum kits from their entire line, plus drum kits from EVERY other manufacturer, the increase in sales would be minuscule at best. Keep in mind that some folks will bitch if they were hung with a brand-new rope. Consequently, I usually don't put a lot of stock in the constant Yamaha naysayers. It appears as if they thoroughly enjoy bitching and moaning about something--right or wrong.

Someone posted that you should just learn to play the keyboard you have. I agree. Diki and I have both posted that most people will never take the time to explore the possibilities of their arrangers. I agree with his statement as well.

One last thing. Several years ago Fran posted that the only way he would ever sell his G-1000 was when someone pried it from his dead, gnarled fingers, or something along those lines. Since then he has tried damned near every keyboard that has ever been manufactured. His G-1000 is long gone, and he's wowing huge audiences on Atlantic City's Boardwalk with his G-70 hooked up to a couple 16-watt, peak-power, stereo speakers spaced an inch apart. Yessah! I still believe in the Tooth Fairy!

Cheers,

Gary

Yamaha is hitting it's target market for arrangers, which are primarily advanced home users with a smattering of pros using them for gigs.

Ian

Gary quote.."One last thing. Several years ago Fran posted that the only way he would ever sell his G-1000 was when someone pried it from his dead, gnarled fingers, or something along those lines. Since then he has tried damned near every keyboard that has ever been manufactured. His G-1000 is long gone, and he's wowing huge audiences on Atlantic City's Boardwalk with his G-70 hooked up to a couple 16-watt, peak-power, stereo speakers spaced an inch apart. Yessah! I still believe in the Tooth Fairy! "


Gary are you drinking too much Kickapoo juice again?


Not one factual truth in the entire paragraph...


The longevity stay of the G1000..was evident until something better came along (G70), I had them both side by side for a year before I sold the G1000..and how about..I made a profit on the G1000..

Secondly, I never wowed anyone on the Atlantic City boardwalk....in fact I never played the AC boardwalk... I think you are confused..we wowed them at Sea Isle boardwalk...with Yorkville sound system..

And as for 16 watt peak...foolish talk..They are Roland typical not overrated numbers..30 watt stereo.... and it will out perform any other low wattage system that I know of....It is a great all around tool, for effects , preamp, monitor or main Pa for small and mid size jobs...BA330 is a winner..

Now the G70 remains ..until someone makes something better to cause me to replace it..so far Yamaha hasn't..Korg Hasn't...and Ketron still has a few things to improve to make me think of as a replacement...

Go ahead and pour another drink..it is late enough in the day...

Fran,

Do the math. Hmmmm. Maybe you don't know how to use OHM'S LAW. The power consumption is 410 mA at 12-volts DC. That translates to 4.9-watts--not 30, but who's counting.

I apologize for confusing my NJ Boardwalks--I usually try to avoid them--too many kids.

However, yes, you made that statement about never selling the G-1000. One day, when I have nothing better to do, I'll dig it up. Granted it was a long time ago, but even after a dozen glasses of Joy Juice I can usually recall things from long ago. Don't you wish you could do the same?

so far Yamaha hasn't..Korg Hasn't...and Ketron still has a few things to improve to make me think of as a replacement...

Like I said, you've tried them all. And, from what you've said, sold them for a profit--at least on the G-1000. Does the same statement apply to all those amps you've had?

Maybe you should take up drinkin'--it works for me!

Gary

I would bet Ian would take a Tyros 4 over the S910 all things being equal. Who wouldn't?


BTW Experience and knowledge can indeed be mutually exclusive. Someone with your age and tenure should know that. Especially when it involves ever changing technology where experience becomes quickly outdated and knowledge is king. If yo have ever interviewed anyone for a position you would run into the the dilemma of hiring knowledge vs experience...

Obama has little experience and a lot of knowledge. Some believe he is doing a great job with that knowledge .Others believe he is woefully inexperienced and it shows. He was voted into power based solely on knowledge though. No one cared if he had any executive or leadership experience.

In any case it seems to me the loudest protesters to the Yamaha Brand are those who would never consider owning one and take those to task who actually prefer Yamaha and consider it the best possible solution for their needs. Constant complaining about what Yamaha doesn't have or how terrible Yamaha voices are, or the slick "CD quality" yet not "CD quality" but not "raw" live sound....Yet Yamaha dealers will get $5000 for a 61 key Tyros that will never see another 15 keys or sound "live" It is my "experience" People who choose Yamaha over the Korg don't WANT "live" They prefer the "smoother compressed" sound of the Yamaha.

I believe that is because that is what THEY are used to hearing when they listen to prerecorded music themselves and want their audience to hear the same.

"CD like" is often associated with Yamaha Arrangers by those who buy them and for that very reason. The buyers re not mixing engineers. They are music consumers. Yamaha sounds like what they buy out of the box.

One doesn't need 60 years in the music retail business to understand that simple fact. Yet so many cannot grasp the "why"....and despise Yamaha for ignoring their opinions which are contrary to those who are and will always be Yamaha Arranger customers

Note taken on "spell check" Just getting used to a new Android phone...LOL

I wouldn't.....Tyros units are TOO BIG for my needs to drag around day in & day out ......The S series is perfect for gigging musicians in teh trenches everyday, & many times 2x,a day to set up...no need for all the tyros fluff.....I've had 2 Tyros units so far T1,T2, as much as I liked playing them for the reasons above I sold them both...but I continue to enjoy the S900,S910, and probably the New S920?.....very soon.........Tyros is great for studio work...but no need for all the wasted real estate.

The reason Yamaha continues to put "mediocre" Drum Kits in their TOTL arrangers and people will still pay through the nose for a 61 key flagship product" is because they CAN. That is what their longtime base of users WANT. They don't want 76 keys in a metal case.....They DO want a slick compressed sound.

Yamaha will not make a 76 Key Tyros. Evidence? They have not to this day....and have raised prices $1000 in 3 years and have sold all the boards they make. Where is the inclination for them to do things any differently. They own the WS market and the Arranger market when you add in the CVPs. They see no reason to placate the minority who may or may not buy their wares "IF ONLY" and risk losing those who are satisfied.

They have done some new things with their drums on the Tyros 4 but they still won't satisfy those who are biased against the brand. Those of us Yamaha Kool-Aid drinkers don;t expect more than they deliver and although I am disappointing they added an XLR without 48Volt Phantom power, I understand I am in the minority. Those Tyros owners who don't like Yamaha drums are also in the minority. If they weren't Yamaha would address the issues. Those who want 76 keys in a heavier metal case are in the minority.

Yamaha has plenty of keyboards that have those features which is why I personally use both the XS8 and the Tyros. Where one fails the other succeeds. They also don;t want to cannibalize their other lines for the sake of a few whiners.

Yep..no 76...no better drums...no in your face sound in general...Once a PSR always a PSR.Same group doing the marketing & R&D...why would it change.

When Yamaha had the Electone organ...they had PSR's then. The folks lookng for the features in the Electone were not interestd in the PSR (me included in that gang) the folks that wanted the PSR's did not want an Electone.

They sell a H of a lot more PSR's than Electones. But the profit/unit is probably less.

Yamaha blew away the Electones here in US...so away went the customers (me) that wanted more PRO features in an instrument.
They pease the Piano folks with Clavanova's.

So...in a way there is a whole group out here that Yamaha does not address. Some of us would love to have a Yamaha again...there really do know what their doing in R&D when they do an instrument.

Fortuneately there is other choices so we don't have to be without. But, in a way...I do feal abandoned. Poor Me :-)

Lee S.

leeboy, and other yamaha haters..instead of talking BS why not post a few demos where you think the Drums are live and in your Face in a style and let us be the judge of what it sounds like?....talk is cheap. This drum crap is really getting old.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-05-2010).]

"Do the math. Hmmmm. Maybe you don't know how to use OHM'S LAW. The power consumption is 410 mA at 12-volts DC. That translates to 4.9-watts--not 30, but who's counting."

So Gary, where did you find the "resistance" factor..that is needed to finish the equation?

Can you do the math and show how the Bose is 1500 watts?

And when I check my old Cubes..calculate the numbers and see why it sure seems like a lot more than 100 watts..

You also told me the BA330 couldn't last but a minute on battery power at 30 watts (8 AA)...but it last well over 10 hours..go figure...

I still have most of my amps...Podium 802's (4)
Podium 12's (2)

Roland Cube 100 (4)

Sano amp

BA330

Yorkville NX520p (2)

Yorkville 600 watt Sub


I did sell the Traynor K4 to Donny, as I did the Roland Cube 60..He begged me for them..

The only other amp I can recall was the Yorkville 300KB (a great amp that was also stereo an inch a part). I sold that to Uncle Dave..

PS: I didn't lose a dime on any amp yet..

You never lose any money as long as you still own them..

Yep, I didn't think you knew Ohm's Law. The formula is P=E X I. There's a neat calculator you can use in that link I posted. Give it a try--you'll learn something.

Gary

Gary, that is where I got the info...

Ohm's Law defines the relationships between (P) power, (E) voltage, (I) current, and (R) resistance. One ohm is the resistance value through which one volt will maintain a current of one ampere.

( I ) Current is what flows on a wire or conductor like water flowing down a river. Current flows from negative to positive on the surface of a conductor. Current is measured in (A) amperes or amps.

( E ) Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points in a circuit. It's the push or pressure behind current flow through a circuit, and is measured in (V) volts.

( R ) Resistance determines how much current will flow through a component. Resistors are used to control voltage and current levels. A very high resistance allows a small amount of current to flow. A very low resistance allows a large amount of current to flow. Resistance is measured in ohms.

( P ) Power is the amount of current times the voltage level at a given point measured in wattage or watts.

Use the "R" in your formula..

If you want to see how long those batteries will last at 30-watts power draw, use Ohm's law again. The formula for this is I=P/E. This translates 30-watts at 12 volts draws 2.5 amperes. Now, that AA battery is rated at 400 mAH. So, 8 batteries equals approximately 3200 mAH, divided by .410 mA. At best, you'll get approximately 8 hours operating time before the batteries are completely discharged to "0" voltage. Of course, the system will not operate on a voltage much lower than 10-VDC, which would take less than an hour to reach at 410 mA power consumption.

Learn anything yet?

Gary

Obviously, you didn't read the formula. There is no "R" in the wattage calculation equation. Watts (P) is equal to Voltage (E) times Current (I). Try again--you'll eventually get it. NAH!

Fran, If you scroll down the page to the circle graph, then select the power segment you'll find the formulas, equations and how each is derived. I pretty much did this one in my head, but that's because I learned Ohm's Law when I was 12 years old and have been using it ever since. Anyone that has worked in the electronics field and is licensed knows all of the configurations of Ohm's Law--it's a requirement of licensing. Check all the charts and you'll see that only three segments are ever used for any given equation.

Gary

Almost forgot: Page 20 of the Bose L1 Manual clearly states "USA/Canada: 100-127V~ 50/60Hz 1,400-watts. Peak Inrush Current: 32A @ 120V~ 60 Hz" This translates to 3,840-watts peak inrush power when the system is first fired up. There's a lot more information on this on the Bose site.

BTW: I got the information on the BA-330 from page 18 of the operating manual. I read the entire manual twice and could find no reference to power it watts. I also checked several sites selling them and found no reference to power in watts. Am I missing something?



[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 10-05-2010).]

Unfortunately i believe you are correct. Yamaha is placating their user base which is a known entity rather than risk losing them placating the unknown entity who may or may not buy theoir $5000 TOTL arranger "only if."

Who can blame them? They have a winner like it is. The formula works. There are plenty of other choices for those who need 76 keys..."Live" drums....Audio arrangements etc...They have their niche. a 61 key plastic cased TOTL Arranger that sounds slick as snot...too slick for Korg users. I had a PA2x I know what those users want. Both arrangers are very different. I preferred the Yamaha in the end and sold the PA2x. I am glad to have had an alternative to the Korg. Others are glad there is an alternative to the Yamaha and less expensive as well.

There ARE indeed choices. All these Arrangers are different. Why do people want Yamaha to be like the rest? Yamaha owners don;t want the Tyros to be like the Korg or Roland or Wersi or Audya. There are plenty of choices all of them great for those who need or prefer certain features.

Jealousy comes to mind

I don;t know about that. But i do find it interesting that Yamaha gets piled on quite a bit by non users. Supposedly happy with their choices. Bottom line is all the Arrangers are great and the differences are hairsplitting to the avg listener. Only the players can really hear the differences. I chose the Yamaha initially because Arrangers are all about STYLES....Korg did not have the style library Yamaha has. SO for me initially it was who has the most styles Not "how can I create styles" I have the Motif to create scratch songs. I want the arranger for styles.....Press the Internet button and the Yamaha site comes up in the Tyros screen and I can instantly audition and download any style I need right now without getting up....and choose from hundreds.

That was the most important thing to me at the time. I make up the shortfalls with the motif and VSTs. but I am not a live player so I am not "stuck' with only what's on board. But if i were I am sure I would be happy with the Tyros in that regard as well.

If one wants to create styles I am sure. there are easier keyboard to do that on. The whole idea of an arranger for me is Styles styles and more styles....already done.

The Work Station is the place to create what cannot be found for me if only because of a Pattern mode.

So if your not playing out live what are you doing with all these styles?

I heared the T4 live .. and drums where compared to a T3 standing next to the T4, it was a whole world of difference..

All these people are basing their opinions on Youtube video's. I have heared the real thing and T4's drums have much more punch and kick then T3's drums..

I can only advise everyone to go hear them for themselves.


But my main gripe with T4 is still that there is no 76 keys or a module... so its out of the question to become the base of my setup.

Donny...
Please re-read my post...it is 'not' from a Yamaha hater..
I have spend many thousands of $$ on Yamaha through the years...
It is just to say the PSR is a PSR and that is not going to change.

For those that have the desire/need for the PSR type product it is great!

Who knows...I might even switch over to a PSR type user as my musical interests change. The T4 does seem to have increased the Orchestral stuff in quality and quantity...so it has my interest.

Lee S.

Gary , the manual that ships with the BA330 list it at 30 watts stereo...Before I purchased the BA330 , I called Roland..because Sweetwater has it listed at 250 watts..and I knew that was wrong..He verified 30 watts...

BTW: I used the BA330 on batteries (Alkaline rechargeable) for over 12 hours, before it drained to stop..that was 3 consecutive gigs at full power (not the ECO reduced range)..

Did you read how loud it is 109db...I will match it against any other PA(in it's class)..some over 60 watts that won't come close to the loudness or quality of sound..

In my Studio I tested the unit continuously for over ten hours and it was still two thirds retained power (gauge)..

I am learning more than you think..

First of all, why is ANYONE offering a criticism of Yamaha a 'Yamaha hater'? Do you consider that YOU are a 'Korg hater' or a 'Roland hater' or a 'Ketron hater' simply because you choose something different? No, I would be willing to bet that you consider yourselves the very definition of 'fair and balanced'.... It's only people that disagree with you that are 'haters', aren't they..?

Get that mote out of your eye before you pick on others' beams

Secondly, to reiterate my (virtually completely ignored) post... Why has Yamaha NOT made a Custom sampler load to add in the very punchy samples they think are SO necessary on their WS line? It would in NO WAY change the T4 for people that already like it the way it is...

Every time someone suggests something as an ADDITION to what Yamaha are doing, the howls of protest go up, as if they somehow HAVE to lose what they want for those of us that want something in addition to get what we (as potential Yamaha customers) are currently offered. This is utterly wrong. But a simple TVN, made from Yamaha's OWN products designed specifically for drummers (after all, THEY ought to bloody well know what a drum kit is supposed to sound like!) and producers of less dated musics, would simply ADD to the popularity of Yamaha arrangers...

What is it about that scares you all so much?

Is it the thought that, if you actually had the option, you MIGHT like more punchy drums (like those that buy Yamaha WS's do)? Because, if they don't REPLACE the ROM drums, what else do you have to lose?

Let the fear rule you. Or grow up and realize that choice is the BEST thing in a musical instrument.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-06-2010).]

Fran,

If I recall correctly, alkaline rechargeable batteries have a high ampere-hour rating than non-rechargeable batteries, but they're still not very high. Therefore, you will get a bit longer life from the batteries before they discharge to the point where they fall below the 10-VDC minimum required to operate most chips and ICs.

Now, the common sense factor comes into play. Is it entirely possible, knowing how much energy a AA battery is capable of supplying, that the reason the amp continued to work for 12 hours was because it is NOT 30-watts RMS? Is it possible that Roland's statement refers to PEAK-POWER? Is it entirely possible that Ohm's law, and the other laws of physics, are correct? 109-dB? For some strange reason I can't find that figure in the manual. On page 18 of the manual under Specifications it states:

Nominal Output Level (1 kHz)
LINE OUT: -10 dBu
STEREO LINK OUT: -10 dBu

What page of the manual did you find 109-dB? Did I miss something?

Gary

Gary, Fran... There is only ONE spec that matters worth a damn, and you will never find any small PA manufacturer using it.

THD@(x)db

Everything else is just bullsh*t...

How dirty does it sound as it gets loud? They all do, you know. Who cares how long the batteries last, who cares how many W RMS it is? For starters, neither of you use a battery powered arranger. If you've got AC for your arranger, you've got AC for your PA. And RMS is a meaningless stat, without the THD figures at that stated power, and the loudness (in db) that that power achieves.

Have fun ribbing each other, but shame on you! You BOTH know how insignificant what you are arguing about really is...

Diki,

I agree that THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) is an important factor, however, I don't know of any manufacturers that currently supply this information in their manuals or accompanying literature. And, the formula is so complex that most people would not understand how this information is applied to their systems.

Besides, I like picking on Fran--it's fun!

Gary

You don't CALCULATE THD. You MEASURE it. It isn't necessary to know the equations (unless you are actually providing the numbers). It provides an easily comparable stat that actually has some REAL relevance to what we HEAR, once we bring these little things up to a decent volume

And, BTW, most TOTL PA manufacturers include this information. But not those trying to fleece the unwary.

A good guess...If you saw the THD numbers for most of this stuff...you would not be impressed.

One of my other hobbys is Ham Radio...the older vintage tube type equipment I have sounds very nice (THD is low as well..) all the new solid state stuff sucks canal water.
You CAN hear the difference.
Make it cheap is their motto.

Probabbly why they don't publicize it.

Lee S.

Why is it that the Yamaha fan boys think that potential and existing customers who want a feature on a Yamaha keyboard are haters and naysayers?

I like my Motif XS but I would like Yamaha to make the styles on that board have 8 tracks instead of 4. I would like the fills to start any time I press the fill button.

Do wanting those things on my XS arranger make me a Yamaha hater or naysayer?

I like the SA voices and styles on the T4 and PSR S910. Wanting those arrangers to have 76 keys and good drums makes me a naysayer and hater.

Are those person who wanted XLR input and blue buttons on their T4 haters and naysayers?



------------------
TTG

Until Yamaha provide it, yes, apparently...

Don't be so silly, Genny, I don't think that way at all.

Many of us fanboys request features that we'd like to see, and we LOVE the product.

How could anyone wanting new features, on any product, be a "naysayer" or "hater"?

Please explain.

Ian

OTOH, Ian, why do you think you are the ONLY one painted by that brush? TTG made absolutely NO reference to YOU in that post, and many others that he is perhaps referring to HAVE made the 'Yamaha hater' comment...

Don't recall you ever chiding THEM for making it, though...

I don't.

I can't speak for the rest, only in a general way.

Ian