until I get to see the releases of what KORG & ROLAND bring to the table so I can make a very educated comparison to the Tyros, & Audya.....I hope it's soon after Winter NAMM in January.......then & only then would I even consider a change, update, or additional Arranger KB.
I think it's the "SMART" move at this juncture, don't you?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-07-2010).]

Donny,
Yes,
Me too.
Lee S.

Well said Donny, "haste makes waste", as they say (whoever "they" are)..perhaps something from the other manufacturers will fill your needs much better than a Tyros4.

Good luck.

Ian

However, by the time you have seen any answer to the T4 from Korg, and especially Roland , you will be asking, why not wait for the T5?! Especially as the product cycle seems to be getting shorter and shorter for Yamaha, it might only be a year or so before Yamaha roll out another one. They'll CERTAINLY roll out a new PSR in this window, and you are MUCH more likely to want that than a Tyros, anyway (you sure didn't feel the need to go to the T3 after you got your S910).

But the bottom line is, somebody is ALWAYS going to be 'just about' to release something in the near future (and 'near future' seems to be getting longer and longer if you go by most on this forum!) whenever you are about to make a purchasing decision. At some point or another, you simply have to pull the trigger, or you'll end up holding on to your arranger almost as long as me!

In your case, Donny, I would be waiting for the PSR's next MOTL offering... You've already tried every manufacturer (other than Wersi) and none of the new offerings are a radical departure from their older siblings. Whatever you hated about them is most likely still in the new version.

Wait for the new PSR... That's the REAL 'smart decision'!

EXACTLY.

More than a decade ago, when I was working in a computer store, I was telling prospective customers looking to buy a PC, the very same thing:

"Yes, if you wait, sure there will be a better and cheaper PC for you to buy, but while you wait, you won't have any PC, will you?". Maybe 8 times out of ten, they saw the light, they got the PC they wanted right then, instead of waiting. And I strongly suspect that the other 2 who preferred to wait, never got one.

Am I happy with what I currently use S910 on stage every day/night to make a living?..YES...Do I want to see Yamaha make some changes in future MOTL units,..YES......will those improvements be realized even though they would maybe be just for my needs as a performer and not for the masses?..Who Knows? At this time I know the Tyros line after having the T1,T2 is not for me not because of sound, but layout and not needed real estate issues...Korg Pa800 was to me although some really nice features like the Songbook, TC VH unit, Mp3 player, Backing track seq,...I still didnt like the antiquated PA Folder system for editing to many steps, and the key-bed response for me was a bit spongy and less then stellar, the S910 even though super lightweight has a better action that I have compensated my style of playing to accomaodate...Roland G70 excellent arranger in So many ways ...great VH, super key-bed, phenomenal editing capabilities, makeup tools, maybe a bit smaller all around, 10 lbs lighter, and add a Mp3 player and for me even with the 76 keys would be a super arranger for live performance..Sd1/Sd5/Midjay.....
I noticed playing them except for the RIFF mode on the SD5 pretty much the same sound/styles and OS, size & build was nice, SD5 Joy stick very funtional, Midjay was the most versatile UNIT with really kool features that I enjoyed thats you caould play all modes at the SIMUTANEOUSLY with seperat slider controls, but who wants to carry and hook up modules?...jury still out on the Audya 5 as I haven't played one yet, hoping to do that and A/B with T4 in a few weeks....So I remain with my trusty S910 and in no rush to move on....the Digitech VR also is my main VH unit when needed...meanwhile dig in to what you already have explore new things, try to create some styles from scratch,
re-assemble a few parts to make the style your own....and who know down the pike something might come along you can salivate over....

Have Fun....I know I am!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-07-2010).]

When you've already got an instrument that meets all of your needs, it's much easier to sit back and wait for something new.

The S910 meets my purposes as a basic arranger with the essential sounds I need..in fact, I'm still exploring the synth sounds taken from the Motif, with mod wheel controlled filter.

As been said here already, by several posters, we should strive to get the most out of the one we have.

Ian

For the same reasons expressed by others on this thread, I'm still happy enough with my current Tyros2 so in no real hurry quite yet to upgrade either. That said, I'm also considering the possibility of downsizing to a lighter weight 61 note 'built in with speakers' type arr successor to the Korg PA800 or Yamaha S910 if/when it comes. In the meantime, I'm excited about checking out and auditioning the Tyros4 keyboard my local Bay Area buddy Bob recently purchased from Frankieve. I think he's receiving his later this month. - Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

I refuse to buy a T4 ... because I don't have enough money and for no other reason.

However, I think that people who are in the market for a high end keyboard with 61 keys should at least hear a keyboard in person before making decisions.

I haven't heard from anyone who heard a T4 demoed in person who wasn't blown away.

Beakybird

Hey Donny,

A quick question about your experience with the MidJay. I still have one and use it in the studio. I agree that most of the styles are incredible. However, I did find it lacking in the swing and big band styles. How did you deal with that on the job? I know you play for older crowds so you have to be up to snuff with those kinds of styles.

Joe

Hi Larry. I concur that with the state of the uncertain economy, this is a legitimate concern for many other of us pro musicians as well, but the biggest riding factor, at least for me, is the lengthy TIME that will be required to transfer, convert & tweak personal song repertoire registrations + MFD database (over 1,200 songs in my case) plus convert & tweak arr styles from our current keyboard setup to the new keyboard, as it took 3 weeks + to complete when I moved from Tyros1 to Tyros2. Scott

Scott Yee Entertainment

check your email Joe

Korg and Roland will probably respond to Yamaha with new models

DNJ “Midjay was the most versatile UNIT with really kool features that I enjoyed thats you caould play all modes at the SIMUTANEOUSLY with seperat slider controls, but who wants to carry and hook up modules?”
“who wants to carry and hook up modules” coming from the same person who carries and hook up a separate VH unit.

“Roland G70 excellent arranger in So many ways ...great VH, super key-bed, phenomenal editing capabilities, makeup tools, maybe a bit smaller all around, 10 lbs lighter, and add a Mp3 player and for me even with the 76 keys would be a super arranger for live performance..”


“and for me even with the 76 keys would be a super arranger for live performance” Yamaha are you listening? Straight from the horses mouth (meaning a Yamaha 61 key user). How is that for market research.


------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-08-2010).]

76 keys is a mere option I can take or leave....it's the last thing on my needs list.

Just depends on how you use your keyboard I guess.

I have given some thought as to why I like/need 76.

I play all kinds of music. Standards, oldies, country, old westerns, nice ballads, classis rock, no modern rock, if that is all I played...I would be OK with 61..
BUT 'that' is not all I play and in fact those are the minority of what I like.

Musical Theatre, movie themes, orchestral versions of the above. Stuff that has a wide dynamic range because of the instruments and arrangments.

I like to have 2 octives for LH minimum..so I can play more than just chords there. I like to have 2 zones on upper each 2 octives, so I can for example have a string section on the R1 and a Frenchhorns on the R2.
That adds up to more than 5 octives.
Also, I sometimes even like to add a R3 for FX maybe like some percussions, whistle, Violin etc.

AND I lke to do some piano...(No not serious 88 note weighted) 61 is a joke then, I loose 27 notes.

76 is a nice tradeoff and if you look at the size/weight of a 76 vs a 61 it is usually very little. My PA2 is 47 x 14
A T3 is 44 x 17...the 76er is 3 inches longer AND 3 inches LESS in depth!!
Maybe some have not looked at it this way???

There is only 6 lbs difference in weight.

Both of them are prett heavy to cart around...matbe a PSR910 is the great solution for that? Right Ian?

But for the home studio, or living room 76 rules! If I decide to do one with only 61, then I will add the lower kbd. (Yep Piano is still screwed)

I'll wait to see what comes along..for now I'm happy with what I play.

Lee S.

Well obviously you wont get that from the Tyros line...but there are many other choices for you to enjoy that have
76 keys, Audya, Pa2x, G70, etc.....or use a 76/88 key controller, or a module....
have fun choosing whats right for your needs.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-08-2010).]

Exactly, Lee...it's how you intend to use the instrument.

My gigs are 99% arranger, so 61 keys are perfect for me...also, I don't use massive layers in the RH; two sounds are enough.

In the LH I rarely use a sound at all, unless I want a particular sounding pad effect and/or brass stabs...I program/edit my styles to provide the strings/synthpad and to do most of the work...I rarely use a piano or E.Piano in the left...I like to give my music some space and room to breathe.

For studio, 61 still does the job, because for piano parts, I can midi up my 88 note digital piano...I find playing full (solo) piano on semi-weighted keys a real downer.

On a 61 note arranger, "piano" is only a melody sound, and only one of many sounds I use.

I'm not putting down anyone for using 76 semi-weighted key'd arranger...it's just not for me, or for my needs.

That's not to say my needs won't change, but I use what I need for the present, not what I imagine I might need in the future...when that time comes, I will adapt as I always have in the past.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-08-2010).]

Strange, though, that even a 61 arranger includes the 'full keyboard' chord triggering options with On Bass, obviously designed for piano and Rhodes players to play normally (as much as possible, anyway!) and have the arranger's chord detection to come up with the correct backing chords.

So, despite not having enough keys to play a full piano part, it includes the software specifically FOR that function...

You would think, if Ian's system is in the majority, that they wouldn't need that full keyboard detection at all...

The system works great for it's intended use on a 61, and, for me, that is to play two-handed chords, if I so wish...I find this especially handy for multi-tracking, at least in my case.

It also works terrific if I midi up my 88.

Still, I still prefer 88 weighted hammer for actual piano playing...probably always will.

That's why I have no need of a 76'er, although, I can understand why you do... that's why I don't ever feel the need to criticize your preferences....I'm too busy enjoying my own choices.

Ian

OK, with permission...here is a guy on the Korg Forums you-tube site.
He is LiM...

This is an example of what I like an play Getting back to the playing part wih lots of practice now) It's just an example, many other performances wold be similar is technique.
http://www.youtube.com/lessismore9999#p/u/13/_H1CwXx2esA

I think here 61 would be difficult...he is using at least 4 zones. I think he would be out of real estate with 61.

Check out his other songs...he is quite good. IMHO.

Also...notice the vocals are triggered with velocity. As a second voice.
He makes a couple mistakes..don't we all?

Lee S.

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-08-2010).]

For the most part, playing what he played is very possible on a 61...just set up registrations for the various splits in the RH, or Upper as I sometimes think of it.

He wasn't playing much out of 61 note range, except in one part where he did the pan flute(?) an octave higher.

I can split the S910 to have two sounds on the upper, although, in regards to my style of music and playing, I rarely use that feature.

Thanks for the demo, Lee...I understand where you are coming from much better now, and, yes, perhaps a 76 would suit you best.

Ian

PS...I agree, the guy is a good player.

Ian,
Thanks for listening...
Yes, I agree you could do that kind of thing on 61..it's just that if you do a lot of it 76 is much better, especialy if it gets pretty complex...that song, 'good, bad, and the ugly' is not all that complex.
And if you want 3 splits on the RH.

I do love it though...my kind of thing you know.

I love the vocals (second voice)that get trggered by velocity..on his RH, while the srings are still going as well.

Lee S.

If I'm going to play JUST piano, then yes, a wood 88 every time... But if I have to play that AND organ parts, AND synth parts, and splits AND any other damn thing they want me to (or I want to!), and I don't feel like hauling two or three keyboards around (a PSR and a wood 88, in cases, would outweigh my portly G70 by quite a bit!), I have little choice.

Just about ANY one keyboard choice is an exercise in compromise, there's no ONE choice that perfectly covers all the bases (or we would ALL be using it!), so size and type decision is mostly an exercise in damage control! Which size compromises you the LEAST..?

For me, that has to be a plastic 76. Big enough to play proper piano parts if you HAVE to play them, light enough to play organ parts if you HAVE to play them, big enough to split into sizable sections if you HAVE to play a lot of splits, and no need to haul two keyboards around unless doing the most uncompromising studio parts. And that AIN'T what an arranger is all about!

I've got a feeling that, if I ever did ONLY arranger gigs, and HAD to use a 61, I could get used to it. But I doubt I would ever feel truly happy about it...

I prefer the familiarity and comfort of using just ONE keyboard I am intimately familiar with for ALL my live work rather than one rig for arranger, another rig of multiple keyboards for live band, another rig for studio. Once you go beyond 'pure' arranger play, at least FOR ME, I think that the 76 is basically your ONLY choice for a one keyboard rig...

Right now, Yamaha simply don't offer you the opportunity to find out for yourself whether, if they DID make a lightweight 76 PSR, you would choose to use it. But I have a sneaky suspicion that, if they did, you might find those same priorities (the ability to use ONE piece of gear for everything) might become very appealing...

There's no doubt having a 76 note arranger works best for your purposes, and it's great that you've got one (actually two) that does it all for you.

I feel the same way about the S910...if I was gigging a lot, I'd have two of them.

It's the perfect arranger for me...light weight, incredible sounds, inexpensive enough to buy two if needed, all the functions and features I want, speakers, easy operating system, superb third party support, very reliable...and, a lovely smooth fast actioned five octave keyboard.

So, let's just be glad we both have what we want...you trying to convince me to go with a 76, is just as futile as me trying to convince you to use a 61...as you might have noticed, I am not trying to do the latter, so why not just be happy for me that I've got what I want, instead of trying to persuade me that your way is best.

For you it is...for me, it's not.


Ian

Ian great common sense post thank you for for sorting this out.

I'm not trying to convince you to go to a 76 Ian... Yamaha don't make one... not gonna happen!

BUT... if the opportunity ever DID arise, you might be able to judge how well they would work for you without the bad taste that changing to another brand altogether (or putting up with a lousy DGX or NP-80v) would put in your mouth. After all, if you never had HAD the opportunity to find out if it might work for you better than the current situation, you can't really say it wouldn't be your choice.

Sure, what you have NOW works perfectly for how you play, NOW... But a large amount of HOW you play depends on the capabilities of WHAT you play. And all of us, no matter how old we get, should like to consider that we can grow, musically. If more capability can be added to your arranger, at the cost of little gain in weight and size, and ZERO loss in sound and operational ease, it might be harder to make that decision to eschew it if you actually DID have the choice.

It's all well and good to theorize about what we MIGHT do under a set of theoretical circumstances, but if life has taught me anything, it's that we never REALLY know what we are going to do until the circumstances actually arrive!

Never say never!

"Now", is all we have Diki...you don't get any more, or any less, "now" than I do.

What I sell when I gig, is arranger music.

61 keys is perfect for my needs.

I usually don't buy with "but if's" in mind...I buy the right tool for the job I'm doing now.

If a gig requires I play solo piano and arranger, it's not a great pain to carry my P-85 with me at all, and I'd prefer the slight compromise of the extra instrument, to the big compromise of having to play solo piano on unweighted keys.

You know, I've never sat down at a Tyros or PSR and wished they had more keys.

When I had the G-70 here, I found playing solo piano on it unacceptable..it was like playing an NP-30, which I would not buy for my piano work...hence the P-85.

So, the bottom line for me is to use two instruments when the very rare instance of being asked for both arranger and solo piano playing.

It works for me, and I'm all I have to please.

Ian

Good points...

Only thing I'd take a bit of issue with is the comparison of the G70 with the NP30, which is like comparing diamonds and soot! Both carbon...

I actually CAN play piano pretty decently on the G70 (you've got used to doing at least limited piano on even the PSR keybed, so I know you know it can be done!), but that NP30 keybed is featherweight, without even a TRACE of key mass and resistance, IMO. It might be piano SHAPE, but that's about where it stops.

Few people that have ever played a G70 have anything but unqualified praise for its' action, even though many don't like the weight penalty you get for all that extra key mass...!

I have said for quite a long time that we need more than self-serving marketing division descriptions of key feel, and need some sort of common descriptor of TRUE weight and resistance to allow for a better written description of their feel. I hate to say it, but IMO, the NP-30 needs to be described as UN-weighted, at least if you are going to use semi-weighted to describe things like the G70.

Just as not all 61's feel the same, 76's vary wildly too. Yamaha. as a piano manufacturer in the truest sense of the word, should feel ashamed to use the term 'piano' and 'graded touch' for this keyboard. I'm sorry, but if you can't bring yourself to play piano parts on a G70, there's NO WAY you could recommend this (or the DGX's) to anyone wanting to play a piano part. If you needed even MORE proof that neither the DGX's nor the NP-80v are anything BUT arrangers (despite Yamaha refusing to market them in the arranger division), the fact that even YOU wouldn't want to play piano on them should be all you need!

It wasn't meant as a slight...they are both too light for piano playing (for me) and both are 76 notes.

The DGX's and the NP-80v are called piano based arrangers, but the former use weighted action keys, while the latter use a lighter action and piano shaped keys, with graded touch...Yamaha can call them whatever they want...it's their product.

I'd much prefer a combination of DGX and NP-80V, with the arranger style engine (4 variations)from the S-series.

Considering a P-85 can weigh 25 lbs (with speakers), that should give us an arranger with 76 weighted action keys, the S-series style engine, and something near 25-28 lbs.

If we are going with 76 keys, may as well make it feel like a piano, otherwise we are stuck with another G-70, PA2XPro or Audya.

You may feel differently, but the bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one, not just go by a few people on a forum, most of which would not buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it has.

Talk is cheap.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-09-2010).]

Iana wrote referring to Yamaha making a good 76 key arranger when they think it is right and “not just go by a few people on a forum, most of which would not buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it has.”
And there people is the flaw in Yamaha’s research. The above quoted statement could not be further from the truth.
You only have to find DNJ’s post asking persons if they would buy a 76 key T4.
No one has said that they want Yamaha to make 76 keys and then turn around and said they would not buy a Yamaha arranger. So I do not know where that mistruth came from.
I just do not know why a Yamaha representative would do that.



------------------
TTG

The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one, not just go by a few people on a forum, most of which would not buy a Yamaha no matter how many keys it has.

Six or ten people on this forum saying they might buy a 76 note Yamaha arranger still may not be enough impetus to move Yamaha from their 61 note only position on the Tyros...do you think?

Even on Yamaha only forums, the people wanting 76 keys is in the single digits.

Can't imagine these numbers influencing Yamaha to change the Tyros to 76.

In conclusion, I can say I would buy a Lexus station wagon if they made one, but that doesn't mean I would actually buy one.

As I said, and will say again...talk is cheap.

Ian

By that logic, Yamaha would never make a 76 key good arranger because people are not buying a Yamaha 76 key good arranger.
And, the reason why persons can only talk about buying (as opposed to actually buying) a good Yamaha 76 key arranger is because Yamaha does not make a 76 key good arranger.
And Yamaha does not make a good 76 key arranger because persons are not actually buying a Yamaha 76 key good arranger; they are only buying a Yamaha 61 key good arranger.

Now you see the problem with Iana’s and Yamaha logic.

------------------
TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 10-09-2010).]

Genny, you may be cute, but you certainly do not understand Yamaha's logic.

What you are expressing, is your logic.

Obviously not the same thing.

Ian

Nothing cute about that Iana! That is your logic and Yamaha's logic. Sound rediculus when you read it doesn't it?

------------------
TTG

The bottom line still is that Yamaha aren't going to make a 76 note TOTL or MOTL arranger until they feel there is a decent market for one.

That's their position.

Whether you find it logical or not doesn't really matter.

There isn't a 76 note Tyros4, in spite of all the alleged hooting and weeping after the Tyros, Tyros2, and Tyros3...shouldn't that be a clue? Duh!

Ian

And, Yamaha did not make a T1, T2, T3 and now a T4 with 76 keys, but yet still there is still lots of talk about them not doing so. Shouldn't that be a clue?
If persons did not want a 76 key T4, why would they be spending all this time talking about and trying to convince Yamaha making a 76 key good arranger?
It is not that dificult

------------------
TTG

Once AGAIN (how many times does the obvious have to be pointed out? ) I repeat...

YAMAHA DO ALREADY MAKE 76 ARRANGERS.

Calling an SUV a sports car won't make it one, Lexus or otherwise. If Lexus stuck the word Sport Car on a minivan, you would do nothing but laugh and deride their decision. As we are this desperate attempt by both Ian and Yamaha do deny that the NP-80v and the entire DGX line are anything other than arrangers, pure and simply.

Once you swallow this bitter pill, the rest of Yamaha's 'logic' falls completely apart. They HAVE done market research that shows people will buy 76 arrangers. Or they wouldn't make them. They HAVE acknowledged that a significant number of players need more than 61 notes to be content, and are prepared to make keyboards for them... Every argument you make against them, of your own and on behalf of Yamaha collapses once you acknowledge this undeniable truth.

But perhaps those of us wanting this change are going about things the wrong way...? Perhaps it would not be against your religion (Yamahism? ) to simply, instead of asking for a 76 PSR or Tyros, we simply asked for a DGX with EXACTLY the same OS and sounds as those keyboards? Then you could continue in your delusion that Yamaha don't MAKE 76 arrangers, and we could get exactly what we want...

I would be PERFECTLY happy to play a 76 PSR even if it had the words 'Piano' printed on its' front panel, and the letters DGX before its' numbers...

Again, "talk is cheap".

Firstly, there is not, or has not been, "lots of talk"...there are only the same few individuals discussing it ad nauseum, much like after the Tyros, Tyros2, Tyros3.

Secondly, it should be quite obvious that, although there was some talk about a 76 after each Tyros release (at least here on SZ), Yamaha still felt it was not in their best interest to make a 76.

That's why their answer was, and still is, "No."

Ian

However you want to interpret Yamaha's keyboard nomenclature is immaterial.

It should be painfully obvious, however, that they have not deemed it necessary to make a TOTL arranger with 76 keys.

Your refusal to accept that fact, is your problem...not Yamaha's.


Ian