I would like to thank all of the non-76 playing arranger players on this thread for bumping it up to over 180 posts. If Yamaha pay ANY attention to this forum (and I sincerely doubt it, as they aren't in the slightest interested in any opinions other than those of their existing 61 customers) at least having this thread display such legs might show them the depth of interest in it.

Makes you think, doesn't it? If those that have NO stake whatsoever in this debate had simply left it alone, it might have simply withered on the vine like most good ideas here...

I also wonder if I have got stuck in a re-run of Groundhog Day, forced to listen to the same tired arguments over and over again, no matter how many times I refute them.

Let me spell them out ONE MORE TIME. Please bookmark this page, so the next time you feel like spewing the same old arguments, you can look up this post and save yourself (and me!) some aggravation.

1. Making a 76 PSR will have NO IMPACT on whether they make a 61. Only an IDIOT wold suggest otherwise. It will also have little impact on 61 sales. Those that like them will still have them, only those that currently HAVE TO use other 76's have any stake whatsoever in this debate (kind of cuts just about ALL of you naysayers out, though, doesn't it?).

2. Yamaha HAVE changed their lines in the past. Asking them to do it is NOT asking for the impossible. They currently make several 76 arrangers. But no GOOD ones (if you consider a PSR S910 a good arranger.... anyone want to argue THAT? ). I care nothing whether it is branded DGX or PSR. Just that they make the bloody thing.

3. Yamaha made ONE TOTL 76 in the past. It failed because a) it was released well after the 61, so most customers wanting a 9000 series already had one, and b) it had an underpowered CPU, was buggy, and did not work well. NONE of which have a single thing to do with the number of keys.

4. A PSR 76 need be little heavier than a 61. Roland made an excellent 76 with speakers a scant four pounds heavier than an S910. With a MUCH better build quality, I might add. Given all the unused real estate on the T4, a 76 version need be little bigger or heavier also.

It's NOT my job to provide Yamaha with accurate market research. But there are 'truths' held very dear by some of the antagonists on this forum that have been 'proved' by as tenuous a straw poll as was held here. And quite frankly, what DO you consider a representative sampling figure? I can pretty much guarantee that, no matter how big it gets (consider how few regular posters we have here), if it disagrees with your opinion, it won't be big enough! All this thread has shown is, of those currently playing 76's here that were willing to chime in on a thread that garners SUCH vitriol from its' antagonist (none of whom have ANY stake in the issue), the majority, NOT the minority showed great interest in the product. And that is ALL that small polls can do. As I said, if Yamaha start polling ALL 76 users instead of JUST their own 61 users, they are likely to get VERY different results. That is pretty obvious...

And, I still don't get it. If Yamaha are the BEST 61 arrangers, why shouldn't their 76 arrangers be the best, also? You are actively arguing against that point. Because, at the moment, Yamaha's current 76's are NOT the best. Why would you not want them to be?

The absurdities you guys keep trotting out amaze me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by leeboy:
[B]Hi Spalding 1968,
Yes, they have a problem
Look at it this way...let's keep it simple.
Do you think Korg, Keton Roland etc are stupid and would build a kbd that they didn't sell enough of. NO way!

The research is already done.

Us folks here on SZ is a rounding error.
Plenty of sales for a 76...it's already proven.

Leeboy lets keep it simple. Do you know the operating costs of Yamaha Roland or Ketron ?

Do you know the profit margins on yamaha roland or ketron products ?

Do you know the return on capital that roland , yamaha or ketron expect from their resources ?

If you dont know the answers to these questions (and neither do i ,i might add)

Then you are just speculating about whether or not these manufacturers are making a profit T

Let me just speculate here too (it seems like thats everyones favourite pasttime on the synthzone. But i have some understanding of the costs of manufacturing, marketing and distributing products. i might suggest that the jury is still out as to whether Ketron have sold enough units to as much as BREAK EVEN yet let alone make ANY profit

And finally .....Roland did make a keyboard they could not sell enough of, Gem made keyboards they could not sell enough of. and even Yamaha made keyboards they could not sell enough of. They only realised this AFTER they had made them.

Here's my last business lesson for today. ;-) Making a 76 key arranger keyboard is not the issue. Selling sufficient of them baring in mind the factors i outlined above is whats key.

Yamaha already make 76's. There's that issue done with, once and for all. The issue is, will they ever make a GOOD one?

Absurdities?

You're the one saying they can't make one...and then demanding them to make it.

Contra-Diki-ing yourself over and over.

And, you have not given one shred of hard evidence that it is economically viable...or even necessary.

Now, that's what we can call, "absurd".

Read Spalding's posts...he makes a lot of sense...far more than you've been making.

Ian

This is not speculation but something that happened in the past.
Roland had the G1000 (which was 76 keys). Most of their next arrangers up to the G70 were 76 keys. If there were no market do you think they would have made the newer keyboard 76 keys?

Korg made the PA1x pro (76 keys). The successor to that was the PA2x pro (76 keys). If there were no market do you think they would have made the PA2x pro?
Ketron made the SD1 (76 keys). The newest flagship (Audya) was 76 keys. Do you think they would have made their new Flagship 76 keys if they did not think there was a market?

Lionstrack made the Mediastation. The first MS had 76 keys.
So there is your research done already. Diki does not have to do anything more. The work has already been done.




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TTG

Well, Genny believes they should only make a 76...and drop the 61.



Does that make him an idiot?

The only antagonistic views have been expressed by you, with your continual vitriolic criticism (unfounded, by the way) of Yamaha's corporate structure.

You're losing ground with antics like that, son.

No one's going to take you seriously.

Ian

Spalding said: “Making a 76 key arranger keyboard is not the issue. Selling sufficient of them baring in mind the factors i outlined above is whats key.”


Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
And as we all know, two important points on selling a product are marketing and placement.

Just look at how Yamaha marketed the T4. The selling point for the T4 were the new SA2 voices, the styles and the vocal voices. The flash memory and XLR input while mentioned are not the selling point of the T4. Nor is the fact it is 61 keys. And now in the world of online demos to get people interested in the product, we all know Yamaha is Queen at that.

Also placement of the keyboard in the right stores is very Important as we saw with the silly decision Roland made with the G70.

P.S My position is not that Yamaha drop the 61 key PSR but add 15 keys to it there is a difference. (hint hint marketing) .


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TTG

This is the funniest thing I have read on this board in a long time.....

"Contra-Diki-ing"

This MUST make it into Wikipedia as urban slang in the next update.

That's Fabulous!!!!!
(sorry it's at your expense Diki!)

As an aside...I recently tried to purchase a Roland Fantom G7 from both Guitar Center and Sam Ash. Neither store stocks 76 key keyboards, they are special order. The only maintain stock of 61 or 88 key keyboards. The reason being most of the public will only buy a 61 or an 88 key.

So I don't think the argument is specific to Arranger keyboards and Yamaha, this seems to be an industry trend. That's probably why you won't see ANY 76 key arranger keyboards at a music store; let alone high priced arrangers like the Tyros 4; they are just to expensive to stock and / or they don't sell well.

Seems to be the same with my clients...61 or 88, and those 88's have to be weighted like a piano.

Most workstations are sold with 88, as most pros use them on stage as digital pianos first and foremost...think of it, piano would be the most essential sound for a keyboardist, and that the instrument feel and respond like one would be important.

On arrangers, "piano" is just one of the many right hand sounds the player uses, and 61 unweighted is perfect.

Most pro players who play piano over SMF, generally use Workstations, and 88 weighted is by far the most popular keyboard size and type.

Ask any retailer what he sells more of in workstations... 61, 76 or 88...and in mid to high end arrangers, what sells more...61 or 76?

Ian