I totally agree, James. Been a fan of Pianoteq since its' initial release, have been into modeling since the VL-1's and thereabouts.

But you always have to take into account, when posting at the SZ Arranger forum that YOUR idea of 'simple' and MANY of those here vary radically!

And also, for me, there's STILL a noticeable gap between the 'expressiveness' of modeling, and its' 'accuracy'. I realize that the amount of variation that you can get from modeling, vs sampling, is huge. But, as I felt that this demo showed, that at times, disregard the expressiveness, and sometimes straight-ahead sampling, if it does EXACTLY what you want it to do, is still a bit more accurate. As a horn player myself, I am torn... I want something to PLAY that gives me the widest range of tone and expression that can be got, and if the price I have to pay is it sometimes not QUITE sounding like the real thing, well, that's OK... But as a LISTENER, I have to sometimes sit up and go 'What was THAT?!' when I hear the model break down and miss the target a bit.

I stuck with the DX7 for YEARS after they were no longer popular, simply for the breath controller sounds. But, in the end, convenience and the improvement in sampled sax sounds made it no longer part of my live performance (still got it for the studio, though!). There's a lot I miss, but there's a lot I DON'T.

And that, for me as a horn player, is the still unresolved issue of modeled vs. sampled...

I still get the impression you think me a Luddite and a technophobe, but I simply consider myself more a realist. Especially here, as opposed to a VSTi forum, where it is obvious everybody has at least a GOOD working knowledge of computer based systems, I tend towards the cautious when using adjectives like 'easy' when dealing with something that is anything BUT to the less well initiated.

Well I did slap a “For Advanced Users” title on this thread in order to attract the type of people who would be interested in this, and there are many people here who are well able for all this too.

You got to admint, this is not complicated stuff Diki.

Pianoteq is played straight as you play a Piano. WIVI, again you play straight but use your breath, Wheel or Expression Pedal to control the dynamics. Preferably Breath as that's going to give you the most control over the expressions and dynamic range.

That's not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination. They are simply to operate programs that anyone would enjoy. Takes but a moment to get the most from WIVI and I really do mean that.



Compared to what, samples ?

If your not hearing the benefits of this over samples, please do download the demos. Mark my works, they will change your mind. We are looking at truly ground breaking software here.




Hmmm... I know samples have their place, they have after all shaped the world of music for 30 years, but I really feel WIVI and Pianoteq far exceed sample based sounds so much that it just so easy to hear and understand this.



You simply can't on any level compare FM Technology to PCM Technology. They sound nothing alike.



Again go download the demo and enjoy WIVI. It's a new way of modelling you have not hear before in other programs and to be fair, you really don't have a true understanding of how good it is just from that video.



Honestly I will tell you what I think.

I believe you are well able and are very knowledgeable, but you have gotten very lazy and are unwilling to work for what you want. You have the knowledge but lack the motivation.

That's a crying shame...!!!! It's like all the fun of music and technology has been sucked out of you at some point in the past when you used to at one point enjoy it all.

That's honestly how I feel and I don't like to say that when I know you could do a lot better at everything than you are doing right now. I say all this with respect.

Regards
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-13-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 10-13-2010).]

Fair enough, James... Yep, I gotta admit, I'm looking a LOT more at speed and convenience when playing than the ultimate accuracy and detail. Guess that's part of growing older (or slower!)...

I am also tied (by familiarity, hardware, software and inertia!) to an older Mac computer that hasn't got the oomph to power these more modern VSTi's and stuff, so, in a way, I'm closer to many of our members here in that respect, and simply base many of my opinions on what I HEAR on these demos. And, as good as this stuff gets, simply LISTEN to the first part of that WIVI demo, and, I'm sorry, but it don't sound like no horn player I know...

In practice, it may be much better. But when simply LISTENING, I have to confess, much of that didn't do a damn thing for me. And I AM a horn player. it was my major and I still play forty years later. I think I got a right to have my own opinion on that issue...

Strictly as a keyboard player, I got to say the occasional 'Wow!'. But as a horn player, I'm afraid I got to give the occasional 'Sorry... better luck next time!'

Pianoteq has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years, however I still prefer Piannimisso http://www.acoustica.com/pianissimo/index.htm which as it combines sampling and modelling to my ears gives a more realistic sound.
Sound Modelling is the way forward however, and as I said a couple of years ago, within 10 years it will become the standard for producing sound, particularly as each new update appears to reduce the amount of CPU power required. (I was expecting a levelling of CPU power required, with the newer more powerful CPUs allowing more instruments to be produced simultaneously)
If I get the time I will download and try out WIVI this weekend to see how it goes.

Bill

What strikes me about Wivi is the amazing sound quality and the fact that you can play very expressively through the breath controller.

That's the way it should be done for all virtual instruments and libraries....small package, huge potential. I won't throw away my sample libraries ( I still think that nothing comes closes to Eastwest's Symphony Orchestra Gold, and everytime I hear back my music played back by these libraries, it blows my mind), but I know I am already interested in the Wivi products and I hope they will come up with a vast assortment of virtual instruments, I think these guys are the right ones for the job.

Way to go Wivi....but please make a better website with more info about the products.

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

that's as generic as anything. Carts and horses were a simple solution too....

it all depends on what you need and what you are trying to do, and how much time and work you are willing to put in compared to the results...

understand, I hate PC's, Windows, and all that stuff, but I have used them for 9 years now and as much as I try to avoid doing everything music with them, there's certain things that I can do only on a PC...for example, I compose on my PSR. But once I have recorded the full arrangement (and compared on the PC,composing on the PSR feels like an happy task ,because of the simplicity), it's time to transfer that midi file into my PC and get out my sample libraries....so as for final sound , the PC does a monster job. So as a composer, to me Wivi seems a killer product. That breath controller adds tons of expressiveness compared to a static sound. Usually you have to use a mod wheel , which is a lot more limiting as well as harder to do. Blowing air is far easier than operating a wheel, and it frees both hands

)

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

Maybe I'm just a bit underwhelmed because I've been using a breath controller since they first came out...?

I still use it on some VERY expressive patches for my K2500 (you can program some extraordinary things doing that) and am pretty familiar with how to use it and program it. Consequently, when I listen to a product that uses one, I am perhaps not coming from the same 'wow!' place that some of you might be, having not used one before...

And, sorry to say, but from that perspective, that first trumpet patch STILL very much left me wanting.

well, I tried the demo version,unfortunately I don't have a mod wheel on my master keyboard so I can't have a full impression of the product. The idea of using a breath controller to me is new, and the K2500 surely is an amazing instrument ( I had a K2000 many years ago and to me was like owning a spaceship )

the 'wow' is see in Wivi is the idea of being able to record, say, a tenor sax riff using a breath controller....the breath controller might not be a new idea, but to me is not that in itself that excites me, but the fact that I could be able to achieve various acoustic effects proper of the acoustic instruments (sax, trumpet etc), without using complicated keyswitching.

On the K2500, the most you can do is controlling bends or LFO effects and the like, with a breath controller, but the new idea on Wivi to me is controlling real sax effects, etc, using breath. I don't think it's the same thing, but that's just me. You seem to have owned a lot more great keyboards than I ever had, so yes my equipment experience is more limited.



[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-14-2010).]

Thanks Bill,
something else to try.

I downloaded Pianoteq, and I'm playing it via my Clavinova CLP170 piano's speakers.
This model was top of the line ( no arranger functions ) about 6 years ago, and at the time retailed for about $6,000 AUD.

I've always luved the piano sounds on my CLP170, but the Pianoteq, played thru the Clavinova, to my ears , sounds even better.
I only downloaded the basic version of the program.


Next I'm going to try Pianissimo.

best wishes
Rikk

after downloading the Wivi demo version, I have to say that the sound quality wasn't as good as I expected....it's very good but not amazing, so in a way I take back what I said about the review above.

For example, I have a sample library from Yellow Tools called 'Candy' , all brass, sax,etc, and though it's all samples, it's better than Wivi in terms of sound quality.

But Wivi is definitely worth keeping an eye on about future versions...after all, even the first Pianoteq version wasn't as good as the latest one, and that breath controller is too good an idea to pass up

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-15-2010).]

[This message has been edited by arranger_yes_pc_no (edited 10-15-2010).]