Actually, it seems like a change of pace for those wanting to shoot down those who wish for a 76

But no, come to think of it. You found a way to bring it up, anyway. Kudos!

just as interesting as 250 posts about 76 keys eh?

My main keyboard for more than 25 years has always been 76 keys....my other 61 key models were my toys...

I would be a fool to only own/play a 61 key model...I would rather just play the accordion..

Starting with my JX10..and today with the MediaStation and G70...

Fran,
Right on!
Lee S.

Perhaps...I use an 88 weighted keyboard for piano...61 works perfect for my needs in regards to an arranger.

76 keys does not guarantee a good player...it does give a bad player more opportunities, and room, to screw up.

Ian

Trained accordion players are always great players..

all you 76 aficionados lets stop the silly BS .....I have yet to Hear or See why any of you need a 76 key arranger......anyone care to show us why?.. by playing or posting a video to demonstrate?..........no?
I didn't think so .....what a joke this whole 76 key thing is give me a break.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-22-2010).]

aficionados




------------------
Bo pen nyang.

If someone does not see the advantage of 76 keys on a multi zoned arranger keyboard..there is no use to give an explanation....It usually means you are a 61 key player that didn't know that there were zone possibilities on your keyboard...


But here is a bit of info anyway..most folks that like to play left hand bass require 2-2 and half octaves for a bass range.(Yes some arranger players like to turn off auto play)....that leaves only 31 keys to play right hand..sure enough for brass stabs or a limited sax line..hardly enough for any piano/or EP...

For you ..no problem ..you comp for your vocals..and some growl sax....but for me and many others we are not strong vocalist and much prefer to play piano with a sustain pedal....
Different methods...different number of keys...61 limits way to many things that you are capable to do...on a 76...

Like I said, if you don't understand why anyone needs a 76...you just plain don't understand...

Thankfully we got away from that horrible video clip..and went off topic..

Are you a trained accordion player?

I loved playing the accordion...had a Galanti Super Dominator(?) for several years, when I was a kid, and a smaller model by Hohner that I liked and sometimes used in the band.

I took a few lessons, but played mainly by ear.

Ian

talk talk talk.....

until someone can show us all I dont buy it.......besides there are many choices for 76 keys on the market already ......you have many choices whats the problem?

all you so called "piano players" have no real idea to really Play an arranger anyway....keep wishing, it only tells Yamaha NOT to make a 76.

meanwhile I'm off to a 61 double gig today ....BYE

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-22-2010).]

Every once in a while ..I take a Petro DiEiro book..that I once mastered (I was good)...but now when I look at the scores I say to myself..what in the world is this...who can play this stuff..

BTW: I still have my accordion from 1963,,I wish I had my very first one from 1956..I will post current pics of my 63 model..still like new...

You proved my point...

1963 model

I played a lot of jigs and reels...Scotch music, Irish tunes, Acadian music and "Newfie" music...foot tappin' stuff from the great province/island of Newfoundland.

They used to call the button accordion, the "Newfie computer". ...and it was called/pronounced the "car-deen"

Never did any classical, but did play quite a bit of swing.

Roland make some nice electronic accordions, and my S910 has some terrific accordion patches.

Ian

1956 model

no..... I think you proved MY point

Just the title sounds difficult!




So this is why you are the arranger player you are today.

Ian

Ian..Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't mention Accordions......

Chas is recuperating

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-22-2010).]

Donny, no one even mentioned Yamaha in this post...we are talking about established already manufactured 76 keyboards...how else could we state we prefer 76....Tyros4 model with 76 isn't a option..and when they do make one..and it still sounds like a Tyros3...I still won't want one...See what you did... You made me bring up the Tyros 76 again...and I don't even want to discuss it or hear about one...

Don't worry...you won't get one.

Of course, you won't get one by Roland either, so hold on to your Jurassic edition.

Ian

Donny,

It is not BS!

OK...here is just one example:
Starting at 1:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1PBtR7B3XQ&feature=related

I think it was your own post?

Also, anything orchestral needs more than 61, with splits and/or just the range of the instruments.

Lee S.

Ian..nope..my choice to use an arranger keyboard...it is the most versatile keyboard to own/play..not because it has auto backing ( a great feature)..but it allows you to do anything on it..sequence..play live piano (at least a 76 key can)...play left hand bass with multiple right hand sounds and a great drum machine to boot (arranger OFF)...and anything in between or combination..

Song ideas flow easily and quickly compared to "workstations"...

You will never see me without an arranger keyboard again......and it will always have 76 keys..

BTW: my accordion is over 150 key/button..

Do you play that kind of stuff, Lee?


Ian

Yes I understand.



That is the reason you are the player you are today. Right?

Ian

Yes, a former accordion player that can play any chord in any key...or scales in any key...
A player that cam improvise in any key..

A player that can read charts and play in real time..

A player that has the command of circles of 4ths and 5ths (Bass buttons were a great learning tool}..

A player that can keep time without a drum pattern or meter..

A player that can appreciate and play the great songs from the 40's and 50's..and know that today's music doesn't compare...

Now do you understand why trained accordionist are great players..

and Yes, why I am the player I am today..even with my diminishing skills (becoming lazy because of arranger keyboards)..

Thanks Fran...I understand completely.

That's why I still play piano and, lately, some Hammond B-3...arrangers can tend to make us lazy.

But, they sure are a lot of fun...and, are a great way to solo gig.

I should be able to retire at 130.

Ian

Thinking about accordion players..I was just thinking about the best "keyboard players" I have personally known...and my top ten were all accordion players at some point...

Several of these players went on to be great keyboard players other then accordion..

I would say my all time favorite players (acquaintances)..the top 3 were accordion only players...followed closely by players that went onto piano and organ..

The two former accordion to organ players I knew..were as good as anyone I have heard..John DeCarlo and Roger Pense..
Mr Pense was my grandmother's neighbor, and I started to listen to him in my pre teens..He was a master on the Hammond..
Mr DeCarlo was at the Hammond dealer I worked in the mid 60's ...These guys played effortlessly on the Hammond..

The absolute best keyboard player was my accordion teacher in my 5th year of study (17 years old)..James Wood was the most amazing player on accordion...He played with some great trios over the years (Bucky Harris Trio)..and had the respect of many other gifted players...

I know of at least 4 other great accordion players that were Jimmy Wood students..

I have 2 other close friends that still play accordion with great accomplishment...

Too bad accordion is not getting any respect in teaching schools..it is a great way to study music and theory..

61 arrangers might make you lazy... A 76 arranger still allows you to play FULL keyboard parts so your chops don't atrophy...

But, all that aside, it is completely obvious that, even for 61 players who are already satisfied with what they have, the idea of a 76 is FASCINATING! They are utterly incapable of not talking about it, that's for sure. Anyone notice, it's always the 61 players that START all the threads on 76's, include the idea in their topic titles, and simply can't give it up...

Maybe there's something they can't admit, even to themselves? After all, if they were SO happy with what they have, why bother to post on a thread about something they don't even WANT? Or start threads over and over and over about the issue..? You see ME start all these threads..?

Didn't think so..!

Ian,
Thanks for asking...Yes, I love to play instumental stuff, musical theatre stuff and of course standards, oldies, motown etc...I use RH splits also.

Actually , if the Clavinova had ull arraner function (T4) t would suit me well.
(I would also like aftertouch)

76 or 88 is what I want for what I do.

Lee S.

Too bad they weren't weighted.

Ian

So I could buy a Clavinova, and STILL have an arranger that SUCKED, compared to a 61?

You already have an arranger that sucks compared to a 61.

Here Dino...here boy...

Ian

Fran, being an accordian player myself, I have to agree with you about the learning possibilites from the accordian especially the left hand and how the bass buttons are arranged, 4th's & 5th's. A great help in transposition of songs.
I've had a few wonderful teachers myself also in Philly.

I got my first accordian in 1950. It was made in Italy where me and my mother picked it up.
Got my second one in 1953 which was an Excelsiola. My father paid $750.00. That's the one I stil have and it still works great.

I wasn't able to identify the make of your accordian from the above picture. What make was that?

Fran, being an accordian player myself, I have to agree with you about the learning possibilites from the accordian especially the left hand and how the bass buttons are arranged, 4th's & 5th's. A great help in transposition of songs.
I've had a few wonderful teachers myself also in Philly.

I got my first accordian in 1950. It was made in Italy where me and my mother picked it up.
Got my second one in 1953 which was an Excelsiola. My father paid $750.00. That's the one I stil have and it still works great.

I wasn't able to identify the make of your accordian from the above picture. What make was that?

By the way, if you haven't already, go to YouTube and type in accordian players. You'll be amazed at what's out there in the world. Some incredible players.

[This message has been edited by Musicman22 (edited 10-23-2010).]

My 1963 accordion was a Baccalacio (not sure of spelling)..it was custom made in Italy per my (and teacher) specifications..

After I purchased it, it was sent to Sano (Hoboken NJ) to do the amp modification...Total cost was near $2,500 including the Sano amp (Still have the amp too)..
The label on the accordion says "Spezzano" ..the owner of the studio I purchased it from and one of my teachers..

My 1956 was a Collela, that was great especially after the modifications I had done...like muted grille, super custom action key bed, and amplified...

I wish I kept that one too..for nostalgic reasons..

I also had my acccordian amplified by Sano. I drove down to NJ myself and waited for it while they did the work. The pick up is still on mine. I also had their amp. I had them install a 15" University speaker. They had to mount the amplifier on the side of the cabinet because the speaker was so large. That sucker was heavy. I eventually sold it when I moved to Florida.

I used to go down to South Philly when I needed adjustments. I think the fellow who did the work was named Franchetti. A great technician from Italy...where else.

Some of my teachers were, Andy Arcari, Nick Fantazzi, Joe Soprani and Jacob Neupauer....oh also Matt Mathews for some jazz stuff.

A great time in my life.

"Some of my teachers were, Andy Arcari, Nick Fantazzi, Joe Soprani and Jacob Neupauer....oh also Matt Mathews for some jazz stuff."


Do you know Paul Kasper...he also studied with Neupauer...

I actually met Paul at a house party many years ago. He was playing in the band.
He had a duo called the Wayne/Kasper duo. They played on the Amateur Hour frequently.

Started on accordion myself... just a little 48 bass job to start, but having the cycle of fifths laid out just so, helped me grasp the relational aspect of most pop changes long before I had the keyboard chops to play anything in any key.

But, OTOH, once I moved on to piano, I started to realize the advantage that some more keys gave you. I just wonder, if arranger makers primarily made keybeds in accordion sizes, and the 61 was the largest size they made, if those here so determined that THEIR preferred keybed size is the 'best' would be as patient with a bunch of guys playing 49 note arrangers telling them they don't NEED that extra octave..!

My hats off to all of you that play(ed) accoridian...Man...that has got to be difficult.
Lee S.

.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-24-2010).]

Who needs 76 keys?.....

Most, if not all, of the accordion players I sold a Tyros/PSR to, were totally satisfied having 61 keys.

Plenty of room for melody.

The synth players were the same.

Piano players wanted more, but grumbled about semi-weighted keys feeling unnatural for piano pieces.

I guess, for the latter, it is a compromise no matter how you look at it...just what kind of compromise would be best.

Ian

Exactly Ian........lets face it...its not like you cant find good 76 key arrangers they are out on the market...........its that they are just not happy with their sound and beg for 76 YAMAHA unit so they can experience the fantastic sounds, styles and unparalleled support.

What are you guys drinking..

Overall sound..I place the current Yamaha arrangers 4th..behind Ketron , Roland and Korg.....and I am drinking tea..

Who needs 61?

You already have 61...it's just that you've got 15 too many...

37 on the accordion...plenty for melody...has music changed?

Ian

Ok about time we take this south into the toilet eh?.......

Yamaha
KORG
Ketron
Roland

This is my current list order for TOTL/MOTL Arranger KB's in sounds & styles.....
61 or 76...all subject to change after the NAMM show in January..

Apart from your Prelude

No Dennis ..my Prelude is a toy too...

My accordion was the Giulietti 140 bass, Stradella+Free bass so I also studied and played what they called "Classical Accordion" too.

I agree totally with Fran that apart from left hand technique, most proficient to good accordion players usually go on to be decent keyboard players as well.

Still prefer 76 note keyboards though..Big-Time

Dennis

Ian, my accordion has 41 right hand keys....and my split point has 120 on my left hand..

Don't tell me you even prefer undersize accordions too..

Fran, Do you still have your DX-7??

Yeah, that why I find my S910 so cool...41 notes for the melody.

Ian

Cool, fair enough

Dennis

see..41 keys on the treble side..

Ian ..No, I sold the DX7 package..

Real accordion players use the 41 keys for chords..

Yep...that's right...we do.

But, a well phrased melody is just as effective.

Just like a painter...different size brushes...choose the right colors.

Ian

I guess if you spend most of your RH prowess on aping a sung melody line, you really only need a couple of octaves or so (few singers have even that much range). Only needing one octave for your One Finger System, that basically reduces your need down to a 37 note arranger.

Just THINK how light and easily portable that would be..!

Maybe you could start a 300 post thread asking for it...?

Actually 41 is with the fingered chord...and, I don't always play simple melody lines...it depends on the instrument I've selected.

Sax and other winds would be monophonic so that's a given...guitars and Acoustic pianos and Electric pianos would have more chording.

People play for years on a 41 note accordion...not much different than using a 61 key arranger.

That's probably why 61 works so well.

Ian

I finally get it...why some of you think 61 is all you need!

You are only playing chords with the left hand! ????? And you fine with a small area to play them. And you only play one split area on the right?
There's a whole word out there that goes beyond only chords in the left hand, and one zone on the right.

Arranger played in piano style...chord recognition on left AND right..then play piano style.

OR...orchetstral pieces where left hand does some fill work, maybe some percussions etc.

When I was into organs we had MINUMUM 74 keys, 37...on both manuals. Wander why they didn't make them with 30.5 keys / manual?

Lee S.

there are OTHER choices aren't there?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-24-2010).]

Lee,

Do you have any recordings where you can demonstrate your technique?

Ian

"Slowly I turned"...

Well, let me put it this way...

Lee, do you have any recordings where you can demonstrate your technique? You don't have to post here...send them to me.

It's also possible to do a split on my PSR...I can do one on the RH...the Tyros will do two....it's handy.

Ian

Ian,
Some time in the near future. Today...I play like I did with the organ (just LH chords), ...By the way, my comment on LH chords only was prompted by remembering how my good friend Rob Sherratt in Greece played when we visted him. It was very interesting. I always thought the chord recognition was based on L. or R. of split. I did not really know how well the PA2XPRO sorted out chords when playing Piano style across the keyboard, until I visited him. (Expert mode)

After my visit I was encouraged to learn piano as I liked how he played the Korg arranger.

76 just gives more rooom for piano style platying and larger split areas Especially with 2 splits on RH).

Here is an example of Rob's style of playing.(and the new Piano he and James did, that I have on my PA)
http://www.irishacts.com/mp3/09-piano-demo2.mp3

Lee S.



[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-25-2010).]

Hi Lee,

Thanks for your reply...whenever you get around to it is fine...I'd appreciate it.

I use right hand splits occasionally, and sometimes piano mode, or Full Keyboard AI, but mostly I'm a confirmed Left Hand Chords, Right Hand melody (often with chords) kind of player...I play relatively simply, trying for accuracy, which has become my preferred arranger style.

Someday, I hope to be able to play as fancy as Fran.

Thanks for the great link...a fine player, to be sure.

Ian

Ian,
What did you think of the Piano sounds and the drums too? I thought the drums were nice, relistic but not too much in your face?

Rob and James put together the 4 layer pianos. I was one of the beta testers. When I was in Corfu Greece with Rob last year we tweeked some of the DSP. I did very little, on the project. The entire piano set (includes some nice E pianos too) was $50. Takes about 160 MB of sample RAM.
I use it a lot...makes me want to play piano better.

Lee S.

The piano was very nice...a very "broad" sound and not too peaky...sounds much like a mellow Yamaha or a Steinway.

The drums were great...actually I like them better than what I hear from the Audya, which has such dominant harsh drums, it actually starts to sound artificial, as if everything is mixed around the drums.

A good piano sound is essential...I have several on my S910 that I like...tweaked a little to round out the tone (softer for jazz, brighter for pop/rock etc).

The one you posted is one of the best I have heard.

Ian

Ian,
Thanks for the opinion. We could ask James as he is the one that provided the sampling.
I could be wrong..but I think it is a Yamaha. I love the sound. I have often wanderd how a 88 note qualty hammer acton controller MIDI'ed in would make me feel playing it.

I like it for the same reason...nce & mellow, and very realistic.

The other night I watched a show on PBS titled 'note by note'. It was a 1 hour story of how Steinway, today still builds a quality piano. They build about 100/year. Each one takes about a year to go through the process. The netest part is where hight ed musicians come in to hand select their pianos! They play a room full of them, then select the one that 'speaks' to them.

Very neat to see what all is involved.

Lee S.

Lee, you should get hold of a book called "Piano, The Making of a Steinway Concert Grand" by James Barron. It follows the story of a concert grand from the woodyard to the concert hall through all the stages of manufacture. Beautifully written and totally absorbing, I couldn't put the book down. Interesting little anecdotes all the way through.

Oops, double post.

[This message has been edited by 124 (edited 10-25-2010).]

124,
I will see if I can find it...sounds like a good read.
Since I have spent lots of time in the manufacturing industry...I bet I will enjoy it.

Thanks,
Lee S.