One is Quirky, One is Pregnant, One is Cheesy....and where will Roland sit in this TOTL Mix in the Arranger KB market? This should really be interesting when they are all on the market at once as release timing is of the utmost importance for sales as is customer impatience.

One to the rescue..

I was thinking...if we put together all the bugs and glitches from all of the manufacturers...making it the biggest nightmare.....put a Yamaha label on it ..folks would buy it and swear it is great....

I think the new baby to be born soon...will in fact be a beautiful baby!

Let me tell you why, The current model is already superb, If Korg is comming out with a new model...it will be significant, bacause to add some sounds/styles ect would have been OS, not a new model.
They could just make you pay for new styles/sounds like Yamaha does.

It will be much more.
It's just a guess...I think they added KARMA, Flash RAM, Styles, DNC sounds, maybe more fills, etc.

Lee S.

My instinctive guess is that Roland will not return to the arranger arena...I think they will focus instead on pro instruments (stage pianos, organs, workstations), or home keyboards like the VIMA.

As Dennis said on another thread, " It started with the Fantom G really, maybe even earlier. The market was expecting something pretty big, and Roland delivered a real dud!!"


Then there was the terrible sales record of the G70 and then E80/60/50....bad marketing did them in.

I think they are struggling to regain their once substantial share in the keyboard market...couldn't have been much money left to do more R&D for new arranger features that would let them catch up to Korg and Yamaha.

A new Roland arranger would be nice to see, as competition always benefits us players, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Ian

Unless someone has some reall inside information, I'm afraid Ian's prediction may be more the case than the exception. Roland has been arranger-silent for quite some time now and nothing in their inventories suggests a move to create or bolster an arranger. The department which handled the G and E series did a f@#$-up job in promotion here in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if Roland stayed out of the arranger market until the general economy improved enough to support the R&D.

All the arranger players will be dead, by then! Unless someone comes out with something in the way of an arranger to attract YOUNG players, this dodo is headed for the happy hunting grounds, alongside the 'home organ' and the modular synthesizer...

Maybe you're right, Diki, but since the average ages for arranger buyers, in my experience, is between 40 and beyond, arranger manufacturers only have to keep adding things to cater to that group.

It's a home keyboard...home entertainment is paramount and big bucks...these instruments compete against home theatres, and other systems.

You're thinking that we'll be playing arrangers for the "younger" crowd, where, in most cases, we'll be playing for our own entertainment and to our own age group.

As the age bracket shifts, more 40- somethings will join the club, and the type of styles and features will change to suit them...those companies that don't change, stay behind.

Consider Casio...watch what they do...they know the arranger market, and it's future.

Former Casio owners buy MOTL and TOTL Yamaha, Korg, and at one time, Roland, arrangers.

Ian

If most of the arranger players came from the home organ market, and that is pretty dead here in US...then after all the current arranger players go to the big music studio in the sky....who will buy arrangers.

I blame the dealers/mfgs for not getting ne blood into the game.

Thse are really cool instruments loaded with great fun! Lots of age groups should be buying them....most people you run into don't even know what they are and how 'easy' they are to use to play their favorite tunes.

Dealers need to get out, be creatuve and sell, sell, sell.

Is this the same in other country's??
I don't think it is true in Japan...but don't know about the others.

Lee S.

Other countries, on the whole, tend to have much more traditional musics popular with both young and old. Although the young in Europe love going to raves, they will also happily join in a singalong at a bar or restaurant. The US has no singalong tradition (or very little of it), so arrangers are given a pretty wide berth by any young player.

After all, forty years ago was the SEVENTIES (scary, ain't it? ) and, while perhaps disco gets good shrift on modern arrangers, rock is definitely weak, and don't even get me STARTED on how poor 80's, 90's, and especially anything from this century is on an arranger...

Yamaha's DJX proved how popular arrangers could be for the young if styled and voiced right. Sadly, Yamaha dropped it like a hotcake. Obviously, the arranger division is completely incapable of relating to younger players (or anyone that doesn't want EXACTLY what they currently make, for that matter!), and so it all goes down in history along with all the other 'Whatever happened to...?' products.

Buggy whips for a Model T generation.

Relating to younger players?

How many "younger" players can afford a Tyros4, or even a PSR-S910?

Not many.

The low end Casio's and PSR deal with that market...you best examine their tactics, and draw your own conclusions.

BTW, Roland made a similar product to the DJX, the DJ-70...more expensive, but it had a sampler... but, it was dropped after only two generations.

Why did they drop it?

Companies do things we'll never understand...and even if we do, it ain't going to matter.

Ian

Same number that can afford MotifXF's, M3's, FantomG's, Juno Stage's, Nord's, etc..

Really, Ian, perhaps you ought to try and read what you write before you go off all half-cocked every time you see the word 'Yamaha' without the word 'great' next to it... I know getting old is a bit of a drag, but really! Have you got to the point where 'younger' means pre-teen? 'Younger' means pre-forties, at least in regard to arranger sales!

And you bought your first 'expensive' keyboard in what, your teens, or your twenties? Why do you think the 'young' are any less likely to be able to afford a decent keyboard now? But try to talk a twentysomething into an arranger rather than a WS or stage keyboard... best of luck!

It's the 40 somethings and up who buy...as the new 40 somethings arrive, the arrangers will cater to their needs.

Been that way way for quite some time...one time, Disco was the most modern beat, and you couldn't find a Country Rock style on anything.

Arrangers cater to music from our past.

Ian

Diki, I really don't get your point here.

It sounds as if you're afraid of getting old, while most of us, in our 60's seem to have a much more positive attitude than you'll ever acquire.

I was orphaned twice, and grew up with a work ethic that many kids today don't need to have...and, I was lucky to have support, for which I am very grateful.

Being able to get a Polymoog, when I was still in my early 20's was a great benefit, and got me lots of experience and work.

Now, back more to the buyer...the age of arranger buyers starts at 40...no kid is going to buy a Tyros or S910, or G-70...too much money.

Besides, it's too un-cool.

We, (arranger players), for the most part, play for ourselves and our age group...not people in their 20's or even 30's...I'm sure there are exceptions, but what I've said is the norm, and I say this from many years of experience in the field...experience you obviously lack.

Rock beats are excellent on the Tyros3 and S910, and there's plenty of them...but, notice the age group it mainly caters to, including what's on your G-70.

Only recently are we getting more modern dance beats, as the new 40-somethings get interested in an arranger...and usually, after they've attended a clinic or demo in the local store, and can see what fun they can have with one...it's a home entertainment/hobby for most who buy...players using them to make money are a very small percentage, but they do exist. And, like the other buyers, they tend to be over 40, and play to their own age group (or older).

People buy arrangers to "be back in a band again"...to make real, a long wished fantasy, to relive some of the stuff they missed because of work, families, and other responsibilities.

They aren't "pro" instruments first...they are "home" instruments first...for home recording, or just for home entertainment...some players are just smart enough to realize they are also a great little gigging tool.

Gary Diamond says, "gettin' old ain't for sissies."

I understand that more today than I ever did, but, I also enjoy my music far more than I ever did...arrangers allow me to indulge in fun, fantasy, and yes, even gigging, better than any other type keyboard.

Ian

Actually I enjoy music from my parents era now ...more than ever..
I want to learn to play a lot of them!

As far as todays music goes..I do like some of it too...BUT, in most cases the keyboard player may as well stay home, The loud guitars (usually full of distortion) overpower everything but the drums. Most of the singers can't even be heard very well, which in some cases is a good thing.

Lee S.

"NEW" Music......when did that start?

Early 90's
Lee S.

Ian, you really got to try reading a post before you reply to it!

If you, as a twentysomething, could afford a Polymoog, why can't a modern twentysomething afford a MoXF? The Polymoog was probably a LOT more money that a Motif or Fantom, etc..

The reason post-forty year olds buy arrangers is nothing to do with they can afford them. It's because they are the only ones that can stand the bloody awful styles in them...! Bloody awful, that is, by the standards of anyone younger than forty. I know getting old is cool, and all that, but an instrument manufacturer has to keep an eye on the future. Look what happened to home organs. Gone the way of the dodo. Not because arrangers came out and supplanted them. Because younger players moved on to synths, then WS's. They certainly didn't move en masse to arrangers!

As arranger players get older, and older and older, and no sizable pool of new players fills in for the attrition, who is going to keep the type alive? Only making arrangers that cater to the twentysomethings (like the Polymoog catered to them back in YOUR day) will get them to play them.

But they CERTAINLY have the money for them. They are buying MoXf's and Nord's like hotcakes. But they AIN'T buying arrangers... Today's music needs an amalgam of arranger and loopstation features. Only the MS is attempting to combine the two at the moment (and failing epically), but until a major picks up on this, all that is left is that long dark tunnel...

How Yamaha could fail to capitalize on the amazing success of the DJX beats me, and, if you care to look for it, provides yet one MORE example of Yamaha's fallibility. Let's face it, that was the right product at the right price, hit the market squarely on the nose, and Yamaha dropped it like a ton of bricks. The DJXmkII was TERRIBLE compared to the first. And so Yamaha quit making them.

Sounds kinda familiar, actually, doesn't it..?

Diki, no one is saying Yamaha is infallible...but, they are still in business.

Companies do things for reasons you and I will never understand.

Arrangers are made the way they are to make the most profit...that's a given.

You may not agree with it, but, that's your problem, not the company's.

You being frustrated with Yamaha's strategy, is just about as useful as you being disappointed with Roland's marketing.

You can't do anything about either.

Ian