Curious... a really good piano player... can he play NOTE-FOR-NOTE identical when transposing to another key? As in, if the playing where put to staff music, his playing in key of Eb would be identical to key of E if they were both transposed to the same key?

Or does the geometry of the keyboard change things up a bit?

Say, you a session cat and the artist wants things dead on. Song is arranged in key of E but he can't sing it that day in that key, so, it's lowered to Eb. Piano player can nail those exact licks? Would he be able to do this in every single key?

That's what a 'transpose' button is for ... seriously, - and while I am responding, I do NOT consider myself a piano player - but, with my limited knowledge, I would say that playing certain passages is going to be easier in some keys than in others because of the layout of the keyboard - and the fingering will be different - ... using your Eb/E example, if I were playing a simple Eb scale with the right hand, I would start with my second finger on the Eb, play the F with my first finger (thumb) and bring the second finger over to play the G, Ab with the third finger, Bb with the fourth, bring the thumb under the fourth to play the C, second finger plays the D and the third finger plays the Eb ... playing an E scale I would start with the first finger (thumb)on E and play the next two notes with the second and third fingers, bring the thumb under the third finger to play the A, and just finish the scale with each finger in succession ...
Now, as to whether a 'pianist' could play all the licks in every key, that would depend on the ability of the pianist ...
I knew an accordion player who played in the style of the great Art Van Damme - all 'block chords - this guy played every song he knew in every key ...
It would be great to hear from the 'real' piano players on this ...
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 11-11-2010).]

My experience in the studio is, projects are divided into separate groups:

1. Someone is funding a recording for their granddaughter. they rely on a producer (me, in many cases) to manage the session, including arrangements, keys, instrumentation.

2. An experienced person, with time in the studio always listens to the input of others.

3. Not many people come in with lead sheets
and firm arrangements at the place I'm associated with as an investor and studio arranger/producer/player.


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 11-11-2010).]

I spent many years in the "recording" studio as an arranger, composer, conductor, producer and sometimes singer in NYC. In my experience in the studios the musicians were able to do what you're posting with little problem. It didn't happen to often, but once in a while it did. These musicians are incredible players.
I once arranged a track for a singer named Len Barry, he had a hit called "123" I believe in the 60's. The producer gave me the key and range he would sing it in (he was in Europe at the time) and told me to write the arrangement. At the time of the session, which was at RCA studios, the key was a minor 3rd to high. The musicians transposed it down a minor 3rd with no problem.

A few times I had to make changes in the arrangement on the spot and you do it.


I reluctantly respond to posts like this because most people don't believe you or think you're just exaggerating. But it's true.

I spent many years in the "recording" studio as an arranger, composer, conductor, producer and sometimes singer in NYC. In my experience in the studios the musicians were able to do what you're posting with little problem. It didn't happen to often, but once in a while it did. These musicians are incredible players.
I once arranged a track for a singer named Len Barry, he had a hit called "123" I believe in the 60's. The producer gave me the key and range he would sing it in (he was in Europe at the time) and told me to write the arrangement. At the time of the session, which was at RCA studios, the key was a minor 3rd to high. The musicians transposed it down a minor 3rd with no problem.

A few times I had to make changes in the arrangement on the spot and you do it.


I reluctantly respond to posts like this because most people don't believe you or think you're just exaggerating. But it's true.

'

Musicman22 very cool! As soon as you said the name Len Barry I remembered the tune "123"

I was trained on piano and all by reading music. I need the transpose button no question about it.

I don't know why the above message was posted twice. I probably did something wrong.
I apologize.

Yes, some piano players can play anything in any key. I had a piano teacher that could do that. Bach two part inventions, Charlie Parker beboplines, boggie woggie,Hanno exercises, pop songs, jazz standards, by ear or sight reading- it didn't matter. He could really play ANYTHING in any key.

I try to include transposition exercises in all my practices. I'm no where near the level of my old teacher but it's fun to try.

Also that particular teacher has perfect pitch- which I think helps him with transposition.

There are a few types of licks and figures that would be very difficult if not impossible to play in every key. But these are rare. For instance, if Jerry Lee does one of his gliss rakes across the white keys, essentially creating an extremely fast major scale, how could you do that in F#? It's mostly a sound effect, granted, but there would be no way to finger that F# major scale that quickly.
And there are some grace note type things that you can do with one finger sliding off a black key onto a white key, which would take 2 fingers to do going from a white key to a black key, and this would slightly change how the grace note slur thing sounds. So I'd say no, not absolutely every single thing that is done in 1 key could be done in all 12 keys, but most things can be.

In fact, that is how I've been able to tell sometimes when transpose is being used. There's this really fast country instrumental tune I have a recording of in B-flat. And the piano takes am amazing solo, but in one little spot there is a tiny mistake where his finger hits 2 white keys at once; he gets in the crack rather than hitting the key exactly. Dead giveaway that he was playing the solo in A and transposed it up to Bb, because that mistake wouldn't have been possible in Bb due to the layout of the keys.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 11-12-2010).]

Part of being a musician is the ability to play in any key. Many of us here are entertainers and with today's instruments, it's not necessary to play in any key. I've always prided myself in my ability to play in any key. Although I make my living as an entertainer, I am also a trained musician. There are advantages to being both. I also read music. I like most of you learned how to play by ear first and I wouldn't trade that for anything. For me, learning how to read has been helpful in my career.

Joe

ditto to what Joe said

I CAN play in any key but I'm a lot more comfortable in certain ones. As Rory says many licks are much more natural in certain keys.
Bill, our friend Richard Wells (who also happens to be blind) can play MORE than adequately in any key. He has perfect pitch and I don't believe he is capable of hitting a wrong note. When I worked with him, I didn't have to tell him what key I was going to be in, just which instrument I wanted him to play. He is amazing on keys, sax, clarinet, flute, harmonica and BAGPIPES. Last I heard he was learning guitar also.
Rory reminds me so much of Richard except Rory is way past him on guitar. They actually both sound a lot alike on vocals.
For the rest of you, Richard has two brothers, Charles and Talmadge. All three are just about equally talented. Talmadge's best instrument is probably guitar.
Bill sorry to hijack your thread but here is something you'll find interesting about our local music scene and its roots, including info about the Wells brothers and our friends Nita Lynn, and son Robin Vosbury. http://www.thebestoftimesnews.com/article.php?article=91&issue=

DonM

This thread also brought to mind my seeing Monty Alexander http://montyalexander.com/
at a local jazz club a few years back http://www.chanseggrollsandjazz.com/ ...
During their break, I went to the men's room and I met the bass player ... we talked (OUTSIDE the men's room ) about the play list they were using ... he said that they had rehearsed their latest CD for weeks before going out on the road, but that night they hadn't played one tune from it ... the 'play list' is whatever comes into Monty's mind at that moment ... the bass player also said that Monty would play an intro - sometimes fairly long - and then switch keys before starting the tune ... so he had to be able to play every song in ANY key because he never knew what key Monty was going to play it in ... he also joked that it was easier for the drummer to do that ...
t.

Most of the Nashville musicians use Nashville notation in the studio. The arrangement of the song is written in intervals and are key-agnostic. So if a song is II-V-I it doesn't matter what key you start in.

The chording using the above method is fairly straight forward, but if you were transcribing a solo, it would be a bit more work.

You can check out the Nashville Number system here: http://hubpages.com/hub/nashvillenumbers


[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 11-13-2010).]

In our way the Geometry of the keyboard changes the way you play a LOT and no way in
hell it would sound the same if you played it in another key...sometimes it sucks.
Thats why we use a lot the Transpose.

In my experience it has always been more important to be able to make the transposition SOUND GOOD as opposed to attempting a note-for-note transcription from the former key.

With the keyboard, there are certain physical constraints that lead to key-specific *devices* that often don't translate as something that is easy to play in the new key. So don't play 'em there.

Perhaps the best examples I can think of right now come from the great Art Tatum. He enjoyed the key of Db for the various fingering devices that can *only* be done quickly in that key.

Studio session cats are generally called upon to make it sound great. Always listening for a "hole" in the music in which we might fit something, yet knowing how not to overplay at the same time, it is both art and a science.


--Mac

Well put, Mac. I can tell that you're one of those "cats" with lots of hours logged as a session man!


Russ

This is just my experience.

I can play most songs in any key, but some keys are more comfortable to play certain phrases than others. For instance some minor/major double stops are easier and sound better in C, F, and G than in Bb, D# and B.

But for me I usually practice one version of the song in a female key, and one version in a male key.

When doing session work, I usually get the song, changes and key to be recorded before the session. Studio time is expensive, it is not good to waste money on a piano player not knowing the song he is hired to play. That said, we often do new arrangements and make up new phrases and motifs. But the key is usually allready established by the composer.

But who cares... if it sounds good, it is good. If you have to use the transpose button, do it. It doesn't make you a lesser player. I know great famous piano players who only knows ONE key! That doesn't stop them from making great music. I belive it was Irving Berlin (or other famous musical dude) how only knew how to play the black keys, and got a custom made piano that he could transpose by moving the hammers via some kind of contraption. We don't look down on guitarists from using a capo do we?

DocZ

I listen to many of the greatest tenor sax players of all time. I admit I haven't heard every tune they've ever done. They have Wynton Kelly, Art Tatum, Bill Evans, Monk and many others on their sessions. I have yet to hear a blues chart in, Gb, Ab, A, B, Db, D, or E by any of them. Their blues charts have many chords played in many different variations etc. It's not only I, IV, V blues.
Just my two cents!

Doc-Z some of us, me included, DO look down on certain guitar players for using a capo.

You'd NEVER catch Lee Ritenaur, Larry Carleton, Tuck Andress and the like using a capo on an electric guitar. They use power chords.

Acoustic players, on the other hand, use the instrument as a combination chord instrument and percussion instrument. they need the open strings, or the bass note of the chord to vibrate and sustain naturally. That's why they use a capo; to get the tune in the right key for that kind of playing.

An electric player using a capo is generally just inexperienced and showing his lack of skill.


Russ

Boo, I was just listening to recording of you, me and Hank. Seems like you handled any key I called!
DonM

Russ, I don't look down on say Jimmy Vaughan for playing with a capo. Or Jony Mitchell, James Taylor or Jeff Buckley for that matter.

And the electric guitar is so much more than just power chords....

Some players use a capo for lack of experience, to enable them to play other keys. Do I look down on them - no - it is ok to be an inexperienced player.

But some players use a capo to get a certain voicing that you cannot get without using a capo. Some use them partially, just capoing a couple of strings for other effects, such as creating open tunings and such. If you want let's say a I-III-V-I-V-I voicing in C major.. it would be pretty hard - if not impossible without using a capo on the 5th fret and an open G chord. It doesn't matter if it is an electric, acoustic, ukulele, banjo or other string-slinger instrument. A capo is a musical tool, just like a pedal, mallet, pick, or metronome. In the end all that matters is the music you are able to express and the feeling you are able to project onto your audience. It doesn't really matter how you are able to do that. Whatever works for you is fine. Even if it means you only play three chords in C.

DocZ

[This message has been edited by doc-z (edited 11-20-2010).]

Don, I will admit I can play many tunes in different keys. However, I cannot play any tune in any key.

One of the more difficult keys for tenor sax is Db. "Body and Soul" is written in that key and any tenor man I've ever heard play it, he did it in Db, that includes me. It sounds best there too, to me. I play "I Cover the Water Front" also in Db. However, I cannot think of many of the most popular tunes written in Db.

If any one knows of a blues chart played by any saxplayer in B, D, Db, Gb, Ab or A, I would like to know of it. I would like to compare it with a chart they did in Bb, Eb, F, G, or C and find out if they can play as well in those tuff keys.

I might do a song in Db, but only to make it fit my voice. If so, I would probably use the transpose button, to make it easier for me.
I don't worry about making jazz songs, or any other songs, sound exactly like everybody else has done them since they were written. Probably couldn't if I wanted. It would be easier to play a recording of the real guy!
I guarantee that my audience does not know what key I'm playing in, except if Rory or someone else with perfect pitch were there. And then, I wouldn't care if they cared!
Use all the tools at your disposal as you wish to use them to make the job easier and better.
DonM

Because of the ergonomic shape relationship between the white & black notes, I find Db to be one of the 'more comfortable' keys to play in. Funny thing is that even though C#'s merely its enharmonic equivalent, playing & thinking in C# feels more difficult to play for me. Mind over matter?!

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 11-22-2010).]

I favor A and E. Mostly because I am so used to playing and singing in them.

DocZ

Doc-z, I think we're saying the same thing-you're just more diplomatic. For instance, I never thought Jimmy could play much. And, while James Taylor is one of my all-time favorites, he is an acoustic instrument specialist and uses his capo in a totally appropriate way-to put a tune in an appropriate key so he can effectively use open bass notes. I even saw Tommy Emmanuel use a capo once-same application and reason.

What you won't see is someone like Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Django or the like EVER using a capo. Of course, that's also related to style of music as much as anything.

Thing is, it only takes a minute or so of watching and listening to see if a player knows his/her stuff, and most players; particularly electric players using a capo are using it as a crutch. It is appropriate for a singer who accompanies himself/herself to use a capo if they make no claim of being an instrumentalist.

I have 300 plus guitars and there's never been a capo on a single one of them.

Of course, anyone can do whatever they want, but, for my style and jobs, they have no use.


Be well,


Russ

Hi Doc, wow 'very' interesting, as I find those two among my least desirable to play in, preferring Ab and Eb instead. For whatever reason I seem to enjoy playing in the flat keys more: F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb. Go figure.

Doc, is that because you are also a guitar player or have lots of time in playing in guitar bands? Those are keys favored by "pickers and grinners", for sure, along with D and G, of course.


R.

Funny you mention Django, many explain his style by saying "He used his broken fingers as a capo" One of my all time favorite players.

But in Jazz, you rarely use open strings, so a capo has little use. And since most scalar patterns are the same all over the fretboard, it makes no sense to use one for solo work either. But in blues, it's a different story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBt6j99YJMI Her is an interview with Jimmie, he explains why he uses a capo.

He can play without it to. But as a player I don't think he plays a lot of other styles than blues or rock. But does that make him a lesser player?

300 guitars... wov? Do you collect them?
I have 12, and my wife keep telling me I have too many

Yes-it's an addiction. I have 23 L-5's, for instance. Early on, a mentor told me to not trust investment "experts", collect guitars.

It's pretty easy, actually. Concentrate of getting the best price possible (usually 40% off) on L-5's, 335's, 345's, 355's, Strat's, Tele's, P bass. Jazz Bass and a few others.

Of course, it's fun to take a flyer on collectibles once in a while. For instance, I have the double-neck Robbin that is identical to the one Jimmy and Stevie played on their "Pipeline" medley, and was on the Robbin catalog cover in the mid-80's. 25 were produced. It's easy to see the footage of the two playing it-just Google Robbin Double-neck and Stevie Ray Vaughan. One sold at an Eric Clapton auction for over $34,000.00. That's because it was an Eric Clapton charity auction, was the one donated by Jimmy and was the ACTUAL one from the catalog cover. Real value: about $2000.00 for mine-purchased for about $550.00 mid 80's...not a big money-maker-yet!.

Been collecting almost 50 years. Have a Gibson L-5 I bought new for around $600 in the 50's which is worth over $30,000.00 now, and some pieces worth in excess of $100,000.00. A lot has to do with the builder (can make 50% difference-individual craftsmen sometimes identify themselves on the sticker inside)) and the popularity of the line/model.

Average annual appreciation on the collection is 26.6%, and all have been depreciated to $0-except for purchases within the last three years. Of course, the little thing called Capital Gains Tax is always a factor. People who want an instrument, like a Philharmonic that called last week wanting a 70's L-5 for around $20,000.00 would issue a 1099 to me, which would trigger the Capital Gains tax.

Mostly, I'm HOOKED on the collection. Recently, I gave a very good friend here a nylon string. Took me a month to choose one of 10 I have in the warehouse, and then I thought I simply COULDN'T do without it, even though it hadn't been out of the case for 5 or more years! (Kind of sad, don''t you think?).


Sorry for the rant. Several members have seen about 1/3 of the collection, and they leave here just shaking their heads.


Don't know if that's good or bad!

Be well,

Russ

(Then, there's the cars, motorcycles, motor scooters, guns, watches, knives, jewelery, keyboards, amplifiers....on and on!).



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 11-22-2010).]

Whew, thanks Russ. That gets me off the hook for using the transpose button. I guess I'm pretty much the polar opposite of Scott Yee, I'm comfortable in most any key except the #'s and b's, with the exception of B nat, of course. Scott probably revels in that one, too.

I prefer C, F, G, D, A, Bb, E in about that order. I can play in the others, but I don't want to and don't have to either.
DonM

Wov, Russ sounds like a truly amazing collection! I myself enjoy building guitars, so I get what you are saying. I wish I had the cash to collect some older gems like you have aquired over the years, because they sure don't make them like they used to..

I hope you enjoy each and everyone of them, and that you keep them alive by playing them.

DocZ

I use the transpose button sometimes myself.

It is usually if my voice is tired from singing a lot or I have a throat infection. Then I know I will not be able to hit the high notes, or use my falsetto. Then for convenience on some tunes I take the tune half a step or a whole step down. That is just so I don't have to think about playing the song in another key, leaves me room to get the crowd going and smile at the girls

DocZ

Interesting that jazz tunes tend more towards the flat keys (C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab) while country-pop-rock charts more commonly sharp keys (C-G-D-A-E); perhaps because horn/brass (sax, etc) are flat-key instruments , whereas country-pop is based more on the guitar, where sharp keys are typically easier to play.

You're right, Scot. There are horn keys and there are guitar keys. In early surf music days, all bands had a tenor player. The band often tuned down 1/2 step, making it easy to play in a real Eb and Ab.


Russ

Yep, that's quite true. We had a tenor player at one time andhe always opted for 'flat' keys. Now and again we'd coax him into doing something in F, but that was about it. I always struggled with Eb, Ab, etc., still do.

In the 50's, 60’s, and 70’s I played with “Rock and Roll bands no problem with the keys they played in. I play in the French Quarters 5 nights a week. I had to play many tunes I was not familiar with so, I had to use a fake book. I could transpose out of the "C" book 1 note higher and got good at this. I was always grateful for this gig as it is the one that I learned many “Jazz Standards”.

In the "Big Easy" in those days, you never knew who was going to call. I had a “Country Rock” band call for me to do a gig at the municipal Auditorium in front of about 6 to 8 thousand people. They did Elvis tunes. Yes in E, A, D. That is where most of the old country tunes are written and played. I’ve had more than a few guitar players tell me it was the easiest key for them to play in just as most of the b chords are easier for sax players. With the exception of Db and Gb.

Of course, along with the b keys F, G, C is easier for the tenor sax also.