Hi guys,

I'm learning piano/keyboard, and a lot of pro musicians that I talked to (including my teacher) hate auto-arranger keyboards (even the bests like VAs). They depreciate their styles and hate the lack of expressiveness of the drums. What do you people thing about it? Is there serious pro musicians using arranger keyboards or is it a amateur gear?

Do Pros use arranger keyboards? Absolutely!!!The best Pros that I personaly know ALL use arranger keyboards. We use them in different ways, but still take advantage of their features. Full keyboard for your piano performance,,It's there...Left hand bass, drums and piano, bingo you have it..Full blow BIG arrangement performance, You've got it..NOW why wouldn't a PRO want to use this keyboard. The people who complain or look at this in a negative way are not the real pros, especialy if they do not give these keyboards a try, and learn to master the technology..If they don't, they will lose their jobs to the arranger musicians. As for teachers looking down on arranger keyboards, they are "OLD WORLD" and need to broaden there views.. Drums, they sound good on every mid-high price range arranger on the market today..I would encourage anyone to give these keyboards a chance...Yes even you die hard negative opinion "PROS"...Fran

Fran,

You gave several examples of using many tones (bass, piano, ...) at same time, but I'm specifically talking about using their auto-accompaniment features or styles. Do you use them? Do you pros use their internal styles or do you make your own styles? Don't you rather use MIDI songs accompaniment instead of "styles"?

Thanks for your comments.

Claurett, When I referred to the BIG performance, that included the "auto" arranger. The keyboards today have great styles and yes, re use our own and modify the factory styles. These same keyboards also play Standard midi files and will show lyrics of thefiles on screen[this surly can help with a "PRO" performance..Some prefer to use "STYLE" arrangement play over SMF use. As an example it allows the musician the option of extending a tune[ late dancers on the floor], and more expression freedom. Today's technology allows us to take a SMF and convert it to a "Style arrangement"..How can a Pro not want these capable ways to improve their performances? Fran

I think that some people think of arranger keyboards as "cheat sheets". But let's look at this a bit further...

I could sell myself as a piano player, and maybe opt for a more economical keyboard that has nothing more than a damn good piano sound. This is fine if I want to play tunes that don't vary from the likes of "San Francisco" or "One For My Baby", where the sole instrument is a compliment to the song itself (as well as laying down the background "track" for the singer).

But here in the real world, where the quality of the performance bears not only of the talent of the individual but also on how the whole thing sounds, we have to avail ourselves of any good tool that comes along.

These days, it is not unusual to find guitarists using midi back tracks for their accompaniment. A drum rhythm, bass pattern, piano and perhaps some strings add to the effect of a good song that would otherwise sound "flat" if played on the guitar alone. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great musicians out there who can play well on just the one instrument alone, and make it VERY effective.

But these so-called "cheat sheet" styles of having some digital ensemble playing along in the background are not in any way taking away the quality of performance - they are in fact enhancing it. If cheating has anything to do with it, then it is with the performer who plays the midifile thru the keyboard while muting his keys to make it LOOK LIKE he's playing - hey, there's not much talent in that, is there? If you're so inclined, perhaps I might suggest you consider a career in used cars rather than performing music.

I use arranger tracks in my work. Sometimes they are nothing more than rhythms or styles that I play a melody along to while fingering the chords with my left hand. On other elaborate pieces, I'll use a midi track(s) of other instruments. More often than not, I've done the work and written the other accompaniment tracks myself. I have, however, been guilty of taking a somewhat simple midi song and making it that much better by adding my own stuff and tweaking it to the point of something acceptable by me.

So.... to say that this is a cheap way to go is, in my humble opinion, a wrong assumption. All we are doing is adding to or enhancing the performance.... making it sound better, mate. After all, isn't that what it's all about??

Dave

I appreciate your comments Dave.

Anyone else have more comments (especially pro musicians)?

I'm not sure about the PRO thing... but I consider myself as one. Never used arrangers in real life, but traditional synths and piano. I play with a few rock bands, but also do some classical and other performances.

Anyway, a few comments about arranger keyboards:

1) First one I ever played (don't remember the model anymore) knew only 4 (FOUR!) types of chords: minor, major and respective 7ths. This really pissed me off.

2) Many arrangers know nothing about chord inversions (especially bass inversions). This also pisses me off.

3) Last week a gave a try to VA series, and I found it is capable of recognising all the chords I was able to play! (Including major7ths, ninths, 11ths, 6ths, dims etc)
Also, there's an option to put "bass inversions" on. (That is, IE. Am7/G, where G is the bass note) And that is something I love!
That's why I'm going to buy a VA-7 as soon as I have the money.

And "how" I'm going to use it? As an arranger. I'm going to do gigs with just a vocalist and my VA. Maybe a guitar player.

Also, I'm using it to practise solos. Just use it's 2-track live recorder to play the basis, and the replay it (looping it) and doing the solo over it (using a piano or a guitar or the VA itself)

Also, it's damn good help when I'm composing. I can instantly hear my ideas with the whole orchestra. This really is not possible with a real band...

And finally, it's a good way to audition my compositions to others in the band. I can compose a song at home, and then just take my VA with me, and play the song to the others (with drums, guitars, bass and keyboards so they will get a good idea about my song). That's much better than playing just the keyboard part, and trying to explain "I need that type guitar backing and the drummer should play that way..."

Enough said?

- Sami

PS. Why your teacher hates arrangers? It's the fact that arrangers are capable of doing chords by only a few fingers. You play just note c, and you get C Major. You play notes C and Eb, you get C minor. You play notes c and Bb, you get C7 etc. This doesn't do good for your piano playing That's why I always use real chords with 3, 4or 5 fingers.

sami,

If its just about the chord recoginition, try to find a G1000 or EM2000. Same chord system, just older models and therefor more affordable

Yes, I tried G800 a few years ago, but really hated the display (and the overall usability) on it. Isn't it the same on G1000?
And EM... isn't it like a toy for kids?
I really like also the ZIP-drive, Variphrase Sampler and.. TOUCH SCREEN!

Yes, the G1000 display is simular to the G800. I just love the zip drive. I like the usabilty myself, I agree that it takes some time to learn but almost all functions/selections can be made with 2 button presses. I prefer that over extensive menus, touchscreens etc.
Personaly I don't care for a touchscreen, I don't think it survives the stage life.
Yes, i would like an included sampler.
The EM is not a toy, it's functionality is equal to the G1000, but it has 61 keys and speakers in a different housing.

Same old story guy's, and it's been that way forever. Many people just don't want to change their way's. They have learned to do a particular acconmplishment in a certain way, and seeing their world slowly change right before their eye's, both frightens and challanges them. They become uncertain and weak, where they once had confidence, and strength. Many persons are for nothing and against everything. It takes a lot of courage to cope with the rapid technical advancements in music and all other fields this day and age. It's later than you think, and if you don't stay up to speed, you will soon be lost in the shuffel. Advise your teacher to try everything at least once as she (he) travels on this road of life.
Happy Holiday's----ARJ

Hi guys,
this is a very interesting topic, although in my opinion its real place should be the General Arranger Forum (and not a specialized Forum like this one).
I am not a pro myself, but I know quite a few of them; one of my friends composes jingles for TV commercials and he uses his arranger to build up a kind of "musical skeleton"; he then adds manually other tracks and nobody, listening to the final result, would be able to tell that he used just an arranger keyboard to lay down the whole arrangement. He uses to say that he would be much more expensive (and time consuming) to hire real musicians to lay down all the rhytm tracks.
The same goes for live performers; unless you are into hard rock or progressive jazz and perform always with at least a couple of musicians (i.e. drummer and bass player) you can save a lot of time and money playing with just your arranger keyboard in front of your audience; the quality of the final result will be up to you and to your musical/vocal abilities.
I tend to agree with Fran, Dave, Sami, Arno and Arthur on most things they wrote; in particular I think that using an arranger keyboard means "cheating" only if you use it to mask your (limited) musical skills, rather than a tool to extend your possibilities.
Friendly,
Andrea