Great News,
we now have our own forum where we can discuss our softsynths, be it soundfonts, software samplers, sample players etc.

Arranger software like OMB, LiveStyler, Jammer Live , BIAB etc

Options for controller keyboards.

Hopefully we can help members who are interested in this form of musical instrument.

best wishes
Rikki

Great timing I'm just about ready to begin a project. Should be fun!

Jerry

[This message has been edited by Mainer (edited 07-12-2006).]

Hi Jerry,
what are you planning on doing, & what are you using?

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rikki

This is really great news!! Especially since I have just recently downloaded OMB, Live Styler and Jammer whatever a few days ago.

I already have questions and I'm thinking, I wish there was someplace where I could ask all of these related novice questions. It is with pleasure to see this forum open up and with you being able to contribute your vast knowledge of this seemingly mysterious side of music to a guy from the old school.

So, thanx Nigel and Rikki.

I am still thinking that one day I can go to a gig with my laptop (when I get one) and a 7 pound contoller keyboard and be able to confidently do a gig easily and have it sound as good as or better than say my Tyros 2 Am I dreaming? I don't think so. BUT it sounds like a lot of work. But maybe once I undertand all of this which is like Greek to me now maybe it won't be as hard to do as it seems now.

First question. From what I have gathered, it seems that everyone is tweaking each style seperately. Is there some way one can set up kind of a template of instrument choices and setting for each type/genre of music and then just need only a few tweaked settings? LIke maybe one setting for country, one for big band, latin, etc, etc, and be able to use it on any number of the same genre style.

Unless I missed it, it seems like this doesn't exist. If it doesn't I would think Jos or Norbert could add this genre/style template feature.

Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 07-12-2006).]

I thought it might be a good idea, so I contacted Jos Maas of One Man Band, Norbert Stellberg of Live Styler and SoundTrek of the Jammer products informing them of this new forum thinking that they may want to participate if they have time, see what's being said about their products and possibly get ideas on how to enhance their already great products.

Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

This is good news. BTW,I had suggested a subforum like this over a year ago(perhaps two years ago?), and was ignored.

Hi Scott,
I'm fairly familiar with OMB,
I haven't used Livestyler mainly because both programs use the psr .sty format, and I find OMB handier because it's an all in one program in that
I can edit the styles,
it's got a basic sequencer
it has an arranger window (similiar to BIAB where you drag n drop chords & style parts to create an arrangement)
etc etc
basically it saves me having to use numerous individual programs.

Not sure whether you're reffering Jammer Live ( realtime arranger) or Jammer Pro. I actually have both.
I was using using Jammer Live in the early days, but it didn't have a huge stylebase, so I ended up concentrating on OMB.
I may check into at again though, as the new version of Jammer Pro (6), has some great new style creation functions including creating styles from midifiles.
I believe that Jammer pro 6 styles can be used in Jammer Live ( though not in their entirety). If that's the case I'll get more involved with Jammer Live again.

I beleive some members may already be gigging with a laptop & controller.

It will be great when the softsynths catch up to the requirements of the realtime arranger players needs.
At the moment most of the software samplers etc are geared towards the musician who sequences , rather than a player who uses it in realtime.
Options for "style parts" at the moment are
soundfonts
Hypersonic 2
Hypercanvas
Bandstand?? (Have to check with Frank on that one.)
There's maybe more that I'm not aware of.
For the melody part you can use a higher quality sampler. ( personally I haven't explored past the soundfonts yet)

Maybe one day, one of the manufacturers will create an all in one package, softsynth , styles & realtime arranger program.

At this stage we're still pretty much stuck with tweaking styles individually. There again, anyone using a converted style usually has to tweak it also.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]Hi Rikki

Hi,
maybe Nigel noticed that more & more members are taking an interest in the subject, and we're just not going away haahaa

best wishes
Rikki

Huh, did you say something ??? I really am so sorry Vquestor. I don't intentionally ignore anyone. You just need to get my attention and sometimes I can miss the occasional posting. Rikki just sent me a direct email and asked me if it was possible. That's pretty much all it takes. I'm a pushover for a request. If you ever email and I don't respond it is usually because my spam filter has eaten it so if that doesn't work it is always worth trying me a second time. This website is only here for all of you to use however you want. I'll always consider a reasonable request and try to answer you one way or the other.

Hi Rikki

That's interesting that each and every style needs to be tweaked individually. Wow, that sounds like a ton of work.

This might be a good time to use what some of the guys on the General Arranger forum call the "easy eight." I believe this started with Roland arrangers when they used style cards that had 8 styles per card that covered all the major kinds of popular music.

I don't know if I could get by with just 8 styles but I'd bet the right 20 styles with good choices for the variations could cover anything a person would want to do. That almost sounds do-able.

I guess one of each of these used at different speeds would be a good possibility: swing, latin, 8 beat, ballad (triplet feel from the '50's), 2 beat (for country, march, polka, dixie, foxtrot, quickstep), rock, disco, boogie, shuffle, waltz. That ought to cover most of it.

That's one thing I think is funny about the arranger keyboard concept. I used to play in bands playing, trumpet, sax, organ, electric piano and drums mostly. Each of the genres we did almost always fit into the groove of one of the styles I listed above with a few variations. The rhythm sections almost always played the basic beat and the only thing that changed was the melody and fills that the musicians would put in. Now I have a Tyros 2 with 400 styles and probably over 10,000 other styles. Really kind of mind boggling when I think about it

Scott

Hi Scott,
I might be overly fussy, plus I use a limited amount of styles. I only tweak the ones I need. I've got 100's I've collected over the years but I wouldn't use a fraction of them. I have some favourites, and if they don't work for a particular song, then I go thru the collection till I find one that does & tweak it.

I quite like the concept of having some basic styles & varying them.
OMB for instance, gives you the option of saving individual tracks ie drums, bass, guitar , strings etc

You could actually build up a bit of a library & use these tracks to vary other styles or create totally new ones.
You also have the option of saving complete parts ie intro's , endings, fills & variations. If you have a basic style that works, instead of using the same Intro or Ending , over & over for different songs, just import a new one.

Sounds like a fair bit of work, but once you've done it , you don't lose it.
Unlike with an arranger keyboard, a new model comes out, people usually sell the old one, to buy the new one . The old styles / sequences don't always sound the same on the new keyboard.

With softsynths, you can afford to keep adding to your collection. Any editing or work you've done , doesn't neccesarily become redundent when they create a better product.

Technics closing, gave me a bit of a shock. All of a sudden I wouldn't be able to replace my keyboard if something went wrong. All the work on styles etc I'd done over the years was wasted.

I think I prefer to put my effort into something that can last. I just move my software from computer to computer.

I do have an SD1. Lovely keyboard. I've worked out how style creation functions etc work, but I don't know how long I'll end up keeping it , so I think I'm better off putting my style creation efforts into my software arranger , instead.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scott Langholff:
[B]Hi Rikki

Rikki

I agree with you totally - the software direction - that is. As you probably know by now (From Yahoo group) my hardware arranger is a Roland EXR-7 and my wife has a Korg PA80. I have three controller keyboards, Roland A-30, a smaller Roland controller 2.5 octave and a Behringer UMX-61 Controller keyboard. The Behringer I bought because it links up by USB and needs no external power - nice for a laptop.

My software at this stage is BIAB2006, OMB9, Ntonyx Arranger, Jasmine Orchestrator (VST) which I use along with Cubase SX to produce the starting backing beds for my projects.

I can also produce backing beds with the EXR-7 and PA80 by recording to the onboard sequencers and saving a midi file. Or just recording the audio straight into Cubase.

For a long time I have looked for the definitive software solution to a real-time arranger. OMB comes close in some areas. Control is usually the issue that lets this process down. On hardware arrangers you have buttons to control fill-ins etc but on software up to now you have to press a computer keyboard key or assign a keyboard note to these functions. The latter has it's problems as these are usually assigned outside the playing area and are hard to hit just at the right moment when both hands are busy playing. I have looked at using a wireless keypad and this may work but they would have to be mounted on the keyboard in an area away from other controls and displays - usually meaning again that they are hard to access in the heat of playing. The answer may be in using something like the Behringer FCB1010 midi footpedal, but I need to figure out how to have two midi inputs into OMB.

Maybe the next thing for OMB is VSTi support as that could be awesome for live use. I know you could use a midi yoke or similar but having everything in one central program means saving setups becomes a breeze.

Kevin

You do realise you have created more work for those of us that own a Wersi OAS instrument, or a Mediastation. (There is only so much time in the day to check the various forums)
Still, as this is the way future instruments will probably go, let’s get stuck in.

Bill

I think this is going to be a great forum especially for us beginners.

I do have a very basic question that I guess fits within this forum.

I haven't yet progressed into using the pc for creating styles or sequencing. I also have a Roland EXR7S and am still at the stage of finding styles I like using and have recently gotten a cd containing over 7000 Roland styles. My keyboards are way on the other side of the room and not connected via usb or anything like that yet, so I have been dumping styles to a floppy and bringing them over to the keyboard and listening to them there. I am wondering if there is a utility available that I can use to audition Roiland .stl files on the pc using my desktop's sound card. I fully understand it won't sound that great and nothing like the style will sound on the Roland but I would at least like to be able to click on a style, or bring it into a utillity and just get a quick idea of the general type of style it is before shlepping across the room to the keyboard. Is there anything like that available without spending a ton of money on something like Sonar or BIB or OMB? I'd appreciate any ideas on this. Thanks.



------------------
Rick Alfaro
Yamaha PSR3000
Roland EXR7S

EMC styleworks

Congratulations with the new forum.

Allthough I am not very active since the last years and I am a hardware addict it's very interesting to see the deveopments at the moment.
(I am also very interested in the mediastation by the way, which is hardware and software)

Anyway let's make it a succes.

Fred

Quote: "Behringer UMX-61 Controller keyboard. The Behringer I bought because it links up by USB and needs no external power - nice for a laptop."

Interesting. Are there any other conroller keyboards that have the USB hookup?

Quote: "Maybe the next thing for OMB is VSTi support as that could be awesome for live use."

Live-Styler by Norbert Stellberg is a VSTi host. It also looks like an arranger keyboard control panel which makes it very easy to comprehend, and looks very nice also.
http://www.live-styler.de/

How is the keys feel on the Behringer controller keyboard? How do the virtual instruments sound?

Hi Kevin,
great you could join us.
Have you also joined Jos's OMB group.
It's always worth making suggestions ( ie 2 inputs) to Jos, on how he could improve OMB. Obviously not always do_able but it's worth making a suggestion & explaining why it would help.

I've now got a 18 button keypad
(unfortunately not wireless) but it has helped. Far easier than using my laptop's keys. I also used a wireless computer keyboard for a while, but the keypads easier. Problem is where to place it, mines attached to my piano's music rest.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin Woolley:
[B]Rikki

I

Hi Bill,
life wasn't meant to be easy haa haa.
Great you've joined us.

best wishes
Rikki

No problem Nigel. I had suggested it in a post a while back, but had not emailed you
directly. I can't remember if it was a separate topic or part of a thread.
(BTW, in the past, I had requested an oriental arranger forum, which you were kind enough to give us.)
Thanks again.

Hi Rick,
apart from Styleworks ( as Fran suggested) I'm not aware of any software that will play Roland styles.

BIAB, OMB etc won't play Roland styles.

Your best shot would be to midi up your keyboard to your computer. I'm not sure how long a usb cable can be?? ( there may be a limit to the length) but if both the computer & keyboard are usb, it shouldn't be that difficult to set up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ralfaro:
[B]I

Hi Rikki & Scott

Thanks for the welcome. I feel at home already!

The UMX-61 keyboard isn't anything special but the feel of the keys is no different to any of the other controller keyboards I've tried - Roland & Korg included. It certainly is a bargain for the money.

Rikki I didn't know about the OMB forum but will investigate. I have tried live styler some while back and at the time bought Alexander Lotov's version - PRS Performer - (which live-styler was based on). Alexander does not seem to have updated his program recently.

It is a great pity that Style Factory is so expensive. You have to remember that $250 in our currency is equivalent to nearly R2000 which is a considerable amount - especially for a program that is not in constant use.

If I could find the Roland style file format then I would have a look at programming some sort of style creation program. It could also have a preview function. Maybe it is something even Jos could look at for OMB.

Cheers

Kevin

Hi Everyone !

Just checking in to say I am happy we have a home of our own. KVR forum, and the like, are grear sources of information, but it is like going to a huge church, you don't know anyone.
For those that don't know me, I play out with a Technics KN7000, but knowing that all hardware breaks down, and,or, becomes dated, I have begun the software route. I am using a Muse Receptor, loaded with Colossus, B4 organ, and just received Kontakt2, as well as a myriad of effects and synyths that came with it.

Since I am 65, I am going the sample route. I really can't get into experimental electronic music.

I am trying to learn this new approach, and it will take time, but it is a great adventure.

Thank you, Nigel and all
Bernie

Hello Bernie
Did you purchase the full version of Kontakt 2 or the upgrade version? (The upgrade version can be added to any soft synth that uses the Kontakt Player, such as Colossus)
If it was the upgrade, did it come with all the standard Kontakt 2 sounds, or just the interface?
You don’t say whether you are using B4 or B4II, however if you are using B4II then you can use the learn function to assign any button of your Midi control keyboard (Assuming it outputs midi codes) to any controls that are visible down the left hand side of the B4. (If you also have assignable sliders then these can also be mapped to the B4II Drawbars for real-time control)
Finally welcome to the forum, as we seem to be getting quite a wide range of uses on here. I.e. People that use controller keyboards and computers, Hardware soft synth controllers and Computer based Arranger Keyboard uses.

Bill

Fran, thanks for the suggestion. It does seem like exactly what I was looking for, but the price seems a bit over the top to me. It converts to roughly $253 for the Roland version. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and find a way to get a pc over on that side of the room. I think the distance would really be pushing the limits for using a usb cable. Probably looking at 30 Ft. or so going around the perimeter of the room over to the keyboards. For the money they want for Style
Works, I could probably have my son put together a small footprint pc which actually might not be such a bad idea. Thanks again for the info.

Follow this link to find out about USB cable lengths.
Hope this helps.

Bill
http://www.usb.org/about/faq/ans5/

Rikki:

I owe you a special thanks for talking this up with Nigel at my suggestion and and taking on a mod job to boot. Thanks much.

It's great to see all the positive reactions here. I am not surprised.

For those who feel they don't know everyone here, my expanded profile:

Male (handsome and dashing), 68 yrs, semi-retired from international property development work. Long-time resident of California, near San Francisco.

5 or 6 Yamaha arranger keyboards over last decade, with current Yamaha 9000 at home. Tweaked considerably. Yamaha acoustic as well. Not playing out (not since my R&B band in high school).

Planning to try to move almost 100% to digital music, both playing and composing. Just beginning. Fairly deep personal computer hardware and software knowledge (PC only).

Hi Bill
I got the full version, but a cross grade special because I have Colossus with Kompakt. It is now just Receptorized, and will wait until Tuesday to install.

I have B4II, and very interesting what you said about "learning mode". I have to get a better controller keyboard. The man at Sweetwater sold me a Roland PC-80, which doesn't hace the capability to handle much of that.

Maybe you can coach me on that later.

Bernie

Hi Kevin,
Style Factory is also available for individual brands ie Roland, Korg etc not sure whether you're quoting the universal version ?? either way, when converted to some currencies, it's a lot of money.

Did the Roland GW7 convertor work for your keyboard or is it specific to the GW7?
I don't have a Roland keyboard to try it on.
My understanding was, the software could be used to create a "style from a midifile"??

That's what I luv about OMB. It can actually store phrases ( tracks)
& parts (variations, intro's etc)
to create a library ( similar to what Style Factory does) but the phrases have to be in psr .sty format and the styles you create from them, again only in psr .sty format.

If the GW7 midi to style convertor works with your keyboard, you could create the style in OMB,
create a midifile from that OMB style
and convert OMB midifile with GW7 convertor.

I used to use the above procedure to convert psr styles to midifile for my technics.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi Rick,
EMC have demo's, maybe you'd be able to listen to your styles via the demo version??
I don't want load it into my p.c. as I own the full version & I may mess something up. I don't want to have to get pin no's
reissued.
Don't know whether it will work, but may be worth a try. http://www.emc-musicsoftware.de/viashop/storefront/start.asp?

For sounds, if you have a creative soundcard like audigy, or sblive you could use soundfonts.


Roland have a soundcanvas softsynth, but it's not available on it's own. It comes as a freebie with some of the software packages, or you can purhase it, if you buy something like powertracks sequencer..

It's always a good idea to check out the bundled packages before buying.

I recently added 4 new style sets & 2 new melodists to my BIAB.
Cost $29 each
Bundled $59 for all 6 plus extra software programs.
http://www.pgmusic.com/rolandvs.htm

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ralfaro:
[B]

Rikki

Firstly the GW-7 converter does work, so I do now have an avenue for making new styles. I actually use an old version of Cakewalk for this because of part markers etc. I prefer the older versions for working with midi files. I also have recently purchased PowerTracks 11 from PGMusic and will try that out also. I now have so many sequencers to use but for my recording studio I always use Cubase SX. I have tried mixing some of my professional recording projects in the lower priced and free sequencers and - you'd be hard pressed to say which was mixed in which program! The main difference between sequencers is work-flow and ease of use combined with flexibility. Some of the free programs have the same flexibility as the $400 ones. Anyway I digress!

The EXR-7 seems to play any Roland Style file I care to throw at it! I recently downloaded some tweaked G-70 styles from somewhere and they worked a treat. Some had some funnies going on in them - g-70 specific features I suppose - but the majority worked flawlessly and sounded great.

I have the EMC demo software but will have to install it to find out if I can demo styles on the computer. I remember getting a freebie version for the PA80 (even with a reg key).

Will keep you informed.

Kevin Woolley

Wow!! This is fantastic. Thank you Nigel for setting this up.
It would be nice if OMB could host vst's and soundfonts. That would eliminate lots of other software.
I'm sure it would not be that difficult to have a version of OBM that supports Roland styles.
Starkeeper



[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 07-17-2006).]

Hi Kevin,
thats good news that the GW7 convertor works.
I've also recently upgraded to pt11.

Let me know how you go with EMC demo.

best wishes
Rikki