It can be done!
I'm almost speechless here...This is new. This is a T4 + more.
I have listened to every one of these performances/demos...and it is exactly what I have been wanting.
And it really shows the sounds on T4 that I need.

BUT, for anyone interested in the Quality Sound of a T4 and how it all sounds in a mix...this will show you.
You might even pick up a playing technique or two.

I just wish I could understand what he is saying and the comments. Is it German? or what?

Start with this one and listen to all his demos (well if your really interested in a FULL tour of the T4), then listen to his playing of Maria.
Start of his demos...
http://www.youtube.com/user/YAMATI40#p/u/27/B8inaLetqdA

Maria....
http://www.youtube.com/user/YAMATI40#p/u/9/BYvMTCs7Phw

I'm not sure how I find out the details of the setup, but I'm going to try. I can build the cabinet.

If you take the time to listen a lot of his work...
Well IMHO he sure knows the T4 and he is a very good musician.

He sure is a PRO musician, and I really enjoy listen to and watch his playing.
I've seen adverts of such setup to place a keyboard on top someplace, but can't remember where....
This "still-video" give a good picture of his "T4 organ", because it's most likely inspired from Wersi that he's been using a lot.
Just look at his Wesite.

Keep on Rockin' and Rollin'


Cheers
GJ

With 2 playing surfaces and a footpedal board - you really can expand the capabilities of a conventional arranger. If you grew up as an organist - this should feel like going home. That same approach can be used with many other brands and models too ... don't limit your thinking to just the t4!

This link gives extensive details of the Tyros MIDI settings for the Twinset. http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=29404.0
regards, chuck

UD,
BUT...be honest...which other arranger has the quality orchestral sounds as the T4? I have a PA2XPRO...it does not.
Not saying it does not sound great as it does, but when you really listen close to the sounds on the T4 as played with slower music, orchestral, etc..what is better?

I'm not sure what it is, but the sounds on the T4 seem to just blend very nicely in a mix, like a real orchestra sounds.
I'm not sure how to describe it.

Best I con do is describe it as orchestral presense.

Why not buy the Korg Kronos. Then you own the best arranger and the best workstation and have much better orchestra sounds then with only a Tyros 4. And it is cheaper then a Tyros 4. Or combine a Kronos with the new Roland arranger module.

Now that makes a whole lot of sense Fran....good advice.

Thanks Don, it is something I am thinking to do this for myself a Kronos with the Roland module. Or if I have enough money the PA3x and later the Kronos.

How about an entry level Korg Arranger as a controller (They have pretty good Midi control) combined with a Receptor http://www.museresearch.com/receptor-videos.php

Bill

After watching the videos carefully, it appeared as if everything he did was using onboard styles and registrations he created. Obviously, he knows the keyboard inside and out, and he's a very creative, outstanding player. He really didn't need the lower controller board at all, but it made the operation of some songs a bit easier.

thanks for the links,

Gary

The same guy and the T-4 Organ Sounds...Outstanding!

Larry,
Yes, I heard that one too. I listened and carefully watched all his work, and some I watched more than once. They are all good.

Fran, The Korg Kronos could be OK...but I have not heard the Orchestreal sounds on it at all. They may be crap just like the M3 was. Actually I found that the same exact problems with sound existed on BOTH the PA2 and M3. Korg needs to up the game on their sounds. We will see if the Kronos is any better than M3, in the area I am taliking about.

Reember, when these 2 keyboards (which ever ones it is) are married closly together, you CAN NOT get to any of the controls on the lower. So it really just needs to be a MIDI controller, or you will need other MIDI control HW to control it.

The key here is the sounds, and function of the lower.
For those of you that have never played organ (with pedals as well) and had the freedom of that extra manual, you may not know what your missing.

No, you could not do the performance he does withou the lower keybed.....especially on a measly 61 note keyboard! Imagine the split point in the normal spot you play...now go watch these performances again..can't be done.

You need a lot more room on the left than you would have. And you just move to lower when needed for the different sound.

Really my whole point of the post is the SOUND. A second area is the full organ function.

I won't call the Korg orchestra sounds crap. For you they sound not as good as the Yamaha for me they sound way better. Have you ever try to edit and combine some sounds on your PA2x? You will be amazed how great orchestra sounds you can create on a Korg PA. Yes even on a PA50.

Ouch! Anyone else notice that lower manual going flat? What's up with that?

It started out in tune, then went flat when he got ready to play. Weird...

Have to admit, for about $5000 investment, he's got himself an organ that in many ways is superior to many of those $20,000 behemoths. Now all he needs is a skating rink, and he's booked!

I don't have time to be a sound engineer.
Slowly play many of the sounds accross the range of the emulated instrument.....you will fins many issues...like Sudden change in Timbre, drastic change in vibrato note to note (and all of a sudden when they change samples).

Just ry a bunch (Cornet, Sax, violins etc)

Maybe they are not as bad as I said..but it is a sore point with me...if I pay $3,500 for an instrument, in 2010 the sounds should not have those issues. For the type of music I play, it runs my performance.
So, I just do't use those voices (that's not so good)

I am waiting to see if they fixed all that in the PA3X...I sent Korg PA a 3 page document outlining most of the problems...let's see if they ignored it? If they did, they lost a customer.

The very nature of sampling means you will ALWAYS get issues like that. It is only big streaming VSTi libraries that allow you to get away from most of it. Essentially, you have to have a totally separate sample, not only for every note, but also every velocity of that note, then round-robin note triggering for when you play the exact same note at the exact same velocity twice or more.

That is an amount of data completely outside the scope of ROM keyboards.

And it STILL really doesn't address the issue of vibrato, as this varies radically depending on things like mood, tempo, note length, things like that.

To be honest, the sax as a solo instrument defies sampling. It is just TOO variable and expressive, in ways that make it impossible to emulate to the degree that it will completely fool you AT ALL TIMES. You play the right phrase, in the right way, that best works with the sample set, sure, it's going to be hard to tell. But expecting it to do ANYTHING a sax player can do, that's beyond the scope of even the best VSTi's... (listen to the demos of them - I still haven't heard one that can fool me).

Get one of the Lionstracs modules, and load it up with the best GIGA and VSTi stuff you can. Expecting an affordable (don't forget, after the MS module, you STILL have to pay up to thousands extra for the very best VSTi libraries) hardware arranger to provide what would still cost a lot of money even using today's technology is just a bit pie-in-the-sky, I'm afraid.

Diki,
Yes, from a pure tech. standpoint I agree 100%.
But, I should not get a stupid Honk sound when I play Sax from C5 to C6! ONLY on that one note. And, the damm vobrato should not be almost twice as much from 1 note to another (only a couple places in the key span, and only some sounds). Agree? That's just bad samples or the sound engineer did not select the correct one..when they stretch a few notes (usually 3-5 or so) per sample you will get a small variance. That's not what I am talking about...this is all of a sudden, and obvious. To keep it in context, it is not every sound, just some, but way to many and it seems it's the ones I want to play.

I'm sure the Yamaha is far from truly perfect, BUT, I think on the T3/T4 they were a lot more careful and skillful in the sound engineering. This is based on what I have heard in demos...I don't have one.

The PA2XPRO is in general a fine instrument and has some super sounds. But, the way I play I have found some issues.

With no one singing, and music like Telmo and Solitare the sounds have to be great, as that's all there is.
If someone used those same voices I am talking about and played fast dance music....maybe sang too, with lots of heavy style going too...you would probably never notice it.

Have you listened to the performances by Solitare? It does take some time...if you find time I would be interested in you opinion of the sound of the T4(we know he's good!).

I don't hear too much wrong with this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/YAMATI40#p/u/73/YtJOVGn_UR8

By the way, If Korg fixed those issues...(I sent them a 3 pg. document) there still in the game for me.

Sorry, Lee, but if you are going to get picky, you are going to find trouble with any ROMpler's saxes. The T4's are some of the best, but I can still hear issues.

The really low notes sound good, but there's one REALLY low note that was weird, then the low note vibrato works at that slow dreamy tempo, but faster it is going to annoy you (sax players change vibrato speed depending on tempo and all sorts of other things). Then there's a sort of phasey sound in the mid register (and I've heard it on other recordings, it's not a video encoding issue) that bugs me, a nasality I don't like.

Some of it comes down to the fact he's not bending anything at all, and phrasing like a keyboard player, I've heard the same sound used on Yamaha's own demos to spectacular effect, but in the end, it ALWAYS comes down to one thing with sample sets... if you are prepared to play what suits THEM, rather than them try to suit whatever YOU want to play, you usually get good results. Heck, I've even heard good sax demos of Korg PA2's DNC sax..! As long as you play to their strengths, and avoid their weaknesses, you are good to go. Expose their weaknesses, though (as you can even with Yamaha's saxes) and they will still suck!

In the meantime, at least with a Korg, you can load some third party samples into it. I've heard some really good ones, for Akai. Shop around, and you may find yourself, instead of losing out on your favorite arranger features to go after a particular sound, you just load those sounds into RAM and keep what you have!

BTW, sounds are burned to a ROM chip. They aren't sitting in RAM and can be adjusted. So asking Korg to change something set in stone is not going to get results. Costs a FORTUNE to make a new ROM die.

Plus, the original sax player and the studio that recorded it may be long gone. It's really hard to match samples on another player and sax.

Bottom line (and I didn't hear it on the NAMM video's but we know that was all beta) Korg need entirely NEW sample sets recorded specifically for DNC. It's what Yamaha do for SA, they don't use recycled samples from non SA sounds, all of their SA stuff is completely new samples. If Korg do this, they have a winner. If they don't, I'm sorry, but having SA capability without SA samples is a total waste of the whole POINT of the feature!

A Good entry level set of Sax sounds are contained in this Sound set http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=144&Itemid=56

Or if you really love your Sax sounds this dedicated model may suit http://www.linplug.com/Instruments/SaxLab_2/saxlab_2.htm

Bill

Yes is also a good option. And don't forget Lee you can load your own samples in the PA2X.

Bill,
Thanks for the links...
Garriton is not going to work in any way for me. They do not accept MIDI Bank/Prg change messages to select sounds.

Diki,
I agree...the issue is they did not do the correct job on the samples. And, my suggestion was not to make a new cip (that won't happen) it was to release some free user sounds with correct samples to replace their mistakes. And +1 on the playing styles with specific instruments...I'm not that hard to please! Everything so far I have heard on the Telmos and Solitare songs are fine to me.

I have bought several user sounds and loaded them, they were from a few sources on the forum and were OK. I also bought 5 from James (Irish acts) and they are also very good. But the overall sounds are not all that oriented for what I play.

I'm in no hurray...looking at all the options is kind of fun.

FrasN,
Yes, I know and have done many I have even built some of my own sounds from scratch. The RAM is very limited and you can not make up for all the poor sounds by doing this.

You know for $3,500. I should not have to!

We will see what the new PA3X brings.

It might just be a simple as for the type of music I play...AND the sounds I like, Yamaha is a better fit.

One other thing...all the demos I have seen, nobody seems to have any trouble playing a super performance live with the T4.

Please Lee buy the Tyros 4. I beg you.

The only comment I have is this:
What you hear in demos are not necessarily what you hear when YOU play it. Touch and control all play a vital part in creating a sound ... even from a preset instrument. Years ago, a friend played a Rhodes patch on a dinosaur Roland JX10 and Fran and I were amazed by it's tone and character. Well, we tried that same sound in our hands and felt less than amazed. There is a knack for understanding the treatment of each sound played, and in the right hands - most things sound great. Key feel, strength of fingers, velocity settings etc ... all affect the way these sounds will react in your hands, so before you all go rushing for your wallets, please get to a store and PLAY these instruments before you comment on how wonderful they sound. The demo in my Korg i5s is wonderful ... but try to make the kb sound like that ..... not so much.

Everyone's excited, and we all love new toys, but please ... please - play them before you start the rave revues on their graces. A video demo does not sell me on anything. I'm just sayin...

I know, David, it's sometimes hard to answer a "what if" question, but perhaps your answer (and experience) will help someone.

What if you were unable to try out the PA-800, because the music stores in your area, and perhaps beyond, didn't, or wouldn't, stock high end arrangers so you could do a "hands on" and make a decision from there?

Do you have any suggestions or tips for people in that situation?

Ian

UD,
Well said, Point well taken.

It kind of goes back to when I was buying and upgrading on a regular basis the home organs. Especially the Thomas brand...I remember a real good dmo guy/salesman at the store in Toledo Ohio telling me 'more than once'...remeber, your buying the Organ NOT the player, I don't follow you home with it. Back then the sounds were more traditional organ (real leslie's) with a few goody sounds thrown in, and the cabinet was very much a part of what you were buying.

Then came along the Yamaha Electones...WOW, what a sound. The cabinet was very secondary now, except they had a great fold down top to keep dust off.

Still, if the instrument does sound good in demos, anyone dedicated to working on it...should be able to learn to get that sound or something similar.
As to Ian's question...well Ian it depends on the person, if they have lot's of bucks just get the thing. If you do't like it sell it at a loss.
If your more like most of us here, travel if neccesary to audition the instrument before buying. If in a area where that is not at all practical, I guess you go on demos, friends suggestions and a little faith (maybe past experience with the brand). Oh, I almost forgot....and not too many people do this...read the manuals cover to cover, and enjoy a pot of tea!