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Hi folks,

I don't know if you have given this much thought - but why (Oh Why!!) did Panasonic pull the plug on their Keyboard and Organ division in 2004 ??

The usual answer one gets, is that it was too small a market for such a corporate giant, and similar reasons. Well - Yamaha went on and 'cleaned up', didn't they?

Have a think on this .... Did they have to stop, because they were so far ahead at that time (they still give current makes a run for their money now, 8 years later!) that they just couldn't advance far enough from what they had achieved, to be capable (at that time) of producing a better keyboard that would be so different, and to be that much more 'advanced' to sell in high numbers as replacements for the 7000 and 2600.

Having played as well as talked to several friends who have Yamaha Tyros 3 and 4, it costs here over 1,700 Pounds (2,500 dollars) to upgrade from the T3 to the T4. The 'honest' friends, admit it was a very small upgrade in comparison for the high price. Most who have a T4 or any other item, will always say how great it is - because they actually bought one !! There are a lot of Yamaha enthusiast who won't be upgrading to a Tyros 5 in 2 years or so time.

Have arranger keyboards now achieved their maximum potential, and are there are really any earth shattering developments that can be added any more - little tweaks and changes to already existing technology, yes - but not enough to warrant a huge price gap for upgrades.

Are these high end arranger boards going to be scarce and fetch high prices in the future ??

Is this the end, for the arranger keyboard?

In light of the above - in addition to our KN7000, we have just ordered a KN2600 to add to our growing collection !!

The majority of Arranger Keyboard enthusiasts (including myself) are not a long way from going to play that big Keyboard in the sky, so it will also be a shrinking market.

Remember, when it happens - you heard it here first !!

Kindest regards,

John

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Story goes that the MD of Technics had a fascination for keyboards and kept making improvements but when he retired Panasonic accountants looked at the operation and it didn't add up.

Hi John,

I'm not sure about the authenticity of the following, but the reason I was given is as follows.

As you suggest in your post, the Technics Musical Instrument Division of Panasonic was only a very small part of the giant Matsushita Corporation, which owns - amongst others - Panasonic and Technics, and as such, probably didn't contribute a great deal of profit to the overall organisation.
The Technics M.I.D. was headed by a Japanese gentleman, who was a long standing member of the company. It was 'His Baby' and was kept alive by his continual efforts.
However, when he left the company (either retired or died) there was no one with the same enthusiasm as the former head of the Division and since it was regarded by the 'bean counters' as basically 'small fry' in the overall organisation, the decision wqas made to close the Division - A very sad day.................

As far as I am aware, the only really significant Technics products still being manufactured are the excellent SL Turntables and Headphones.

A KN2600 eh John...no floppy disk drive; only the SD Card memory facility, so you'll need to get used to transferring files direct to SD Card and its filing system. Anything from the KN2600 will NOT work in the KN7000 because all Technics are not backwards compatible - so for example a KN5000 style file would not work in a KN3000. etc etc.
That having been said it's a much lighter instrument to cart around and material on an SD Card from your KN7000 will work in the KN2600 although it might not sound exactly the same.
Rog

Compatabilty between boards was a problem for Technics, and the fact that Technics had their own specific file system instead of the standard midi file system was a downer for many. Yamaha made the right decision to stick with midi in both song save and styles, while for some reason Technics wanted to be different. It's a shame that you can't play a song or a style from a mini 7000(2600) on your 7000. What were they thinking?

Whatever the reason, Technics got it right as far as the operating system goes. Yamaha's system is a nightmare. When I bought my T4 I was led to believe that all my Tyros 3 sets would play on the T4. O.K. so the preset T3 styles do play when they can be matched on the T4, otherwise the T4 will compromise with the nearest style thus making my set sound completely different, sometimes even 'rubbish' for that particular song.

Third Party styles are a NO! NO! in the T4 and cannot be played until linked with the relevant on-board styles. e.g. T3 had a lovely Jazz Orch Ballad on it, which was tweaked and put out as a Jazz Ballad on the T4. It isn't anything like the T3's so in order for me to play my ballads saved to this style, I have to link it to the Swing & Jazz on the T4 before it will play. Another thing Yamaha have done, is to add several new voices and styles but it has upset the alphabetical/
numerical listing, so now we're having to delete and rename/number our saved sets as well. And with absolutely everything you do, you must remember to first press the Registration Button, the Style, Voice or Song Button before you can get any life out of it, simply because it saves to these separate positions.

Technics on the other hand, allows you to setup and save everything all in one go and gives you three load choices, all simple and un-complicated. It doesn't matter whether they are presets or third party.

The T4 is all button pushing and very little play for me at the moment. Thank goodness I kept my KN7000. At least I can play it for awhile and get rid of my frustration with the T4.

Audrey

And when I had the KN-7000, I was led to believe I could load KN2600 files into the 7000. Nope can't do it AT ALL! At least your T-4 will accept T-3 files that yes you may need to tweak, but at least you can load and tweak them. In fact no Technics keyboard is back wards compatible, while Yamaha files, for the most part are much more friendly with other Yamaha keyboards, up or down.

I have a Yamaha PSR-3000, and have hundreds of styles on a thumb drive, and maybe a thousand total that load instantly with no problems. True, if not made on a 3000 for the 3000, some tweaking may be needed, but I do have that opportunity to "arrange" styles. After some quick adjustments, I save the new edited style. Simple. No linking to ANY style is necessary.

Also when I record a song on a Yamaha it is saved as a midi file, where ANYONE can listen even if they don't have a keyboard. Where as Technics decided the default song save was a Technics file that is not the standard, and not easily shared. Ever try and record a song on a Technics and save as a midi? Talk about a nightmare!

Your T-3 and T-4 can record to wave with one button recording. The Music Finder on Yamaha PSR's are a quick and easy way to instantly call up a style for a song title, that a user has saved. You can instantly save your current setup to a registration, and it Will be saved for whenever you need it. No need to hit a set button, expand button, or any of those steps needed to save a registration on a Technics.

Sorry Audry, I disagree, the KN-7000 is a great keyboard, and I do miss it, but for me, Yamaha has the easier and correct OS

Well, lol, that depends which Yamaha keyboard you are talking about. My old PSR-550 is great at playing GM midi files .... my classic Motif 6 simply cannot playback GM midifiles correctly at all. It doesn't make sense that a cheap PSR can but one of their pro workstations can't. I'm sure later Motif releases can .... just mine that can't

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Good Morning All,

I really appreciate the views and facts in the replies, but I did ask for opinions as well on what I think is of interest to us all as to the future of arranger keyboards, due to the assumption that the technology in these instruments has probably almost reached its peak, and only small tweaks plus adding existing technology used in other makes already, such as a DVD Recorder/Player - etc could be added. Can you think of any major feature not already on any keyboard that could be added to current models ?

Would such minor additions justify musicians upgrading any more, as manufacturers need buyers, or go out of business.
I still believe that the KN7000 in 2003 was at the absolute leading edge of the market at that time, and it would have been difficult then, to make a big enough improvement to justify the production of a new model.

The crux of the matter is that over the last 12 months, the used price of 'older, rarer and more desireable' keyboards on Ebay has risen by about 50% (The KN7000 and 2600, and the Yamaha 9000 Pro), e.g. The 7000 was about 600 GBP (950 USD) a year ago, and they are now selling for over 900 GBP (1400 USD).
The 2600 was being sold in 2004 new for 600 GBP (reduced from RRP of 1400 GBP) .... and 6 years later is selling at up to 400 GBP !!...2/3 of its original price. I am sure that this is an indication of the high esteem that musicians have for these machines.

As to the purchase of the 2600, - it was pointless for both my wife and I to have a 7000 each, she is now the performer, and I am the 'tweaker and sequencer', as my RSI (Carpel Tunnel Syndrome), no longer allows me to play well. We can 'swip and swap' between the two machines, when we both feel the urge at the same time. Most of the time, we will have the choice of which one to use. And as stated above the 2600 will make a better 'gigging' keyboard.

Another big deciding factor was that in all honesty, I couldn't afford another major purchase so soon after the KN7000.

Compatibility is interesting !! I am buying the 2600 off a friend, and have had a 'mess', before I save up the 'necessary'.

I took over three SD cards from the 7000 ....

a) One with songs from Bills 'Willums Pages', that were recorded on his 7000, and they played fine, I noticed no instrument substitution.

b) The second card was a Patterns commercial SD card for the 7000. That too worked well. So having the two keyboards may well not be so bothersome, we will have to see !! I note that many cards Neil Blake has in his catalogue are for both 7000 and 2600.

c) The last card we tried was an SD card that I had loaded some KN6000 styles off a floppy, one at a time on to the SD Card in the 7000, then saved them to SD. They worked OK too.

Thanks for reading my 'Ramblings' - I hope they are of interest.

John

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Sorry Audry, I disagree, the KN-7000 is a great keyboard, and I do miss it, but for me, Yamaha has the easier and correct OS


Just imagine what Technics keyboards could do today if they were still in business.

Just one thing occurs to me John and that is on those occasions where your fingers need a short break the ability of the KN7000 via SD Jukebox to play tracks from CDs is invaluable, but simply slotting the CDs into a CD player designed into the machine would have been simpler.
Rog

"when I had the KN-7000, I was led to believe I could load KN2600 files into the 7000. Nope can't do it AT ALL!"

Perhaps, if that is so, can you answer me this question.
I have about 45 x kn2600 styles on an SD card on my KN7000 and they work perfectly?

Regards
Peter B

Yup - at some stage in the past Technics or was it Technicsplayer - can't remember now - very kindly converted those KN2600 styles back down for use in the KN7000...they must have needed some behind the scenes coding alteration. They were available for some time to download but for the life of me I can't remember where that was...

Hi Roger
I downloaded them from Bill Norries site

Peter B

The KN2400/2600 styles which you mention, are included in the Total download here : http://www.willumspages.co.uk/page8.html I believe they were converted by Alec, to KN7000 format.

All 'KN' files have unique identifier bytes at the start of the file, which determines on which instrument they can be used. I seem to remember Alec posting some time ago on this forum, that by using a Hex Editor, you could change these bytes and allow some files, not specifically intended for a particular 'KN' 'board, to become usable.....
Perhaps this was how the KN2400/2600 styles were 'converted' to make them compatible with the KN7000 ??

I tried a search for that topic on this forum, but drew a blank

I did try to work with an hex editor and KN7000 files in the past and couldn't figure it out. It's more than just changing the heading of the file I think.

I've always wondered why some programmers who have created very good KN7000 applications like the "SD-TechManager" for instance, never thought of a "KN7000 or KN2600 to lower KN keyboards" file converter.

maybe Alec could help us on this. . .

Serge

E M C Styleworks Universal is the answer Serge if you can afford it...about £200 here in the U.K.

Well Larry, we just have to agree to disagree (as the saying goes) though I don't understand your comment about not being "backward compatible". Over the years, I've had the KN5000,6000,6500 and all my sets play on the KN7 with no problem, no messing about with styles, regits, voices etc. as with Yamaha, just a simple loading of the floppy disk or SD card and within seconds, the keyboard is ready to play.

The top of my 'wish list' for any new Keyboard (and Yamaha in particular), would be a User Friendly operating system, plus a decent 'plain English' Manual covering ALL topics (no referring to websites) and backed up with a DVD demonstrating all the lovely facilities provided many of which, are never used because people just do not realise they are there or don't know how to use them.

When I was in Milton Keynes recently, I asked why there wasn't a Demonstration DVD in the box, particularly with regard to Beginners.
The answer was "We don't really have the time" I thought it was a feeble excuse considering the cost of their keyboards. After all, isn't that what they're paid to do - make sure everyone understands and buys their keyboards. I don't think they realise how many sales are lost because most people just want to play and when confronted with all the technology find it a big 'turn off'

Anyway, I'm off to the Organ & Keyboard Cavalcade music week at Pakefield next Friday and am looking forward to seeing what's available now. By all accounts the new Korg is excellent and will give the Yamaha keyboards 'a run for their money' as the saying goes. Watch this space!

Audrey

Audry,
When I stated backward compatible I meant files from newer Technics keyboards will not play on older Technics keyboards.
Example: You cannot play songs from a KN-7000 on a KN-6000 on down. In fact you cannot play any files from a KN-7000 on ANY keyboard in the World other than a KN-7000 and a KN-2600, unless you go through the tedious task of converting a Technics file to a midi.

Can you explain exactly what you find so difficult about the Yamaha OS? I'm sure someone can help. I agree with you on the videos, I had a KN-3000 and 2 VHS tapes explaining the OS in plain English...learned a lot from those videos that I still have.

Anyway, you are correct, to each his own, and everyone is different, and that's what makes the World go round. The KN-7000 was and still is a great keyboard.
Have a good time in Pakefield

Anyway, after some soul searching, and a SZ search, I found an old post by Alec explaining why Technics is not backward compatible.

Alec's comment in yellow
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Re: KN2400 and KN2600 compatibility
technicsplayer

If you release a product a year after another product it will have a new feature or two. If you load a file from the new into the previous there will be the occasion where you get anomalies because of different samples or different controllers. So all you will achieve is some peculiarly unrealistic sounds and sub-standard styles with bits missing that the designer did not intend, and could not envisage due to the inability to see into the future, which is exactly the case on some 2600 styles loaded straight into the 7000 just as in previous generations of keyboard the situation has been precisely the same. In the case of the styles on www.technicskn7000.com for the 7000 these anomalies have been taken care of by some clever editing beyond the capabilities of most owners, so it's all really quite unremarkable if you appreciate the facts and the history
end---------------------------------------------------------------

Come to think of it, Yamaha isn't truly backward compatible either, in that many files from the new to old just sound plain awful. That said, I've changed my mind about Technics OS and the backward compatibility issue... now that I've read the above post by Alec.

FYI If you want to review any of Alec's posts, that goes way back just click on Users List (at the top of the page) and type in " technicsplayer " It's fun and informative to read his past posts.

With all the styles that are available for the KN7000 why would anyone want any more. They more than match up to anything that Yamaha has even now. I know which I prefer,having had both,plus other manufactures as well. Thats the KN7000.

Peter B

Song specific Peter...is one reason...

Make your own Rog It's not that difficult but it does take time and effort! The editing facilities on the KN7000 are superb to this end - on the Tyros? It's a nightmare - been there - tried it - no way!

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I have continually campaigned for people to make their own 'Song Specific' Styles - As Bill suggests above, there is a great sense of achievement, when everything coming out of the speakers has been made by you, let alone the fact that a song specific style is not a repetitious boring 'one size fits all' style.

A very high proportion of the keyboard 'internals', are dedicated to making styles and manipulating music on the keyboard. What a shame that so many people never venture inside these parts of their keyboard. This is why (believe it or not!) they are called 'Arranger Keyboards'.

I could (and did) do this on Yamaha machines, and it encourages me, when Bill says above it is much easier on Technics, as that is what I am currently working on, having only had the 7000 a month or so.

An easy way to start, I found in the past, was to select a song to record, or add to your gigging repetoire was to find a good midi file of it on the net, and then remove the lead, change tempo, voices, add and delete parts, change key, etc to provide a complete backing to suit my taste and style. Having mastered this, a move to creating styles is only a little further along the learning curve.

Dare I ask? .......Bill - is there any chance that you could do a 'Tutorial' on Style Making on Technics Machines, in an easily understood format on your 'Best on the Net' Pages? (Flattery gets me everywhere!).

I am sure that if such an item existed, many more members would have a shot at it. I have found over the years, most players think it is a 'black art', and just too difficult for most people to do.

Because of Copyright restrictions, I can't ask Bill to post a song he recently did - of a song that I introduced him to. I would love people to hear the original. and then what Bill recorded of it by working from 'scratch' in his 7000. I say it would have to be heard with the original recording, as it is not known in this Country !! The results would surely fire up many people to try and master Multitrack, sequencing, major file changes, style making, and all those features in our boards that few use !!

I have heard many reasons (excuses!), off players as to why they don't want to, or can't learn about their machines capabilities, rarely from anyone who says they will try and can do some study to achieve these skills.

Kind regards,

John



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Hi Larry,

I think we had crossed lines, because I was thinking that you can play the styles from the earlier models, but it never occurred to me you were talking about actually using - say a KN5000 to play the styles from the KN7000 because of course, the OS will have changed so even if it were possible, it wouldn't sound the same because it would be picking up the KN5 on-board styles which as you say, would sometimes produce some 'weird' sounds to say the least.

This is what I meant when I said I was under the impression you could play the T3 on the T4. If the T4 on-board styles match those of the T3, then of course the only difference will be the actual 'sound' which is slightly better than the T3's.

However, if the T4 cannot match the style, it'll find the nearest on- board one and then, what you hear isn't always what you're expecting. In fact, in some cases they are more than 'weird' which means you're once again back to all the button pushing in order to get a decent set.
It's all the button pushing I hate, it is so time consuming. This is an area that Yamaha should take a long hard look at, I think.

Audrey

I think, in essence, that the Kn7000 is backward compatable. The older ones are not forward compatable.

John, You said " Dare I ask? .......Bill - is there any chance that you could do a 'Tutorial' on Style Making on Technics Machines, in an easily understood format "

You'll find a simple Basic Tutorial on my Tech Tips page, which I created for the Cambridge meeting in 2007. You'll find the text document here : http://www.willumspages.co.uk/page10.html Tip Number 21, and there is also an Audio file of the text in Tip Number 24.

As stated, this is just a very basic demonstration to enable a user to get some experience of the 'mysteries' of the KN7000 Composer editing suite, and build some confidence in using this great facility, which Technics provided for us. The rest is up to your imagination...........

Another document shows how to edit an existing KN style and it also has an accompanying Audio file - Tips 20 and 23 respectively. Again, just the basic procedures - but should give the user sufficient information and confidence to 'do your own thing' !

The thing to remember is that you cannot do any damage to the KN7000's original styles, by any editing in the Composer.

Hi Bernie - is that an American correcting the english language...tch tch...you're right though...chuckle.

Hi Rog
Perish the thought, just the USE of it.
Bernie

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Bill, I really must start studying those pages on you site!! At present we have the 3 Tutorial DVDs, the 'Get the Most out of Your KN700' Book, and the Manual to try and adsorb, so heck!, what is a mere 20 or 30 pages extra to study on your site? Hee Hee (or LOL).

I am glad that my question brought the response, it did - and maybe one or two members will now read your tutorial and have a try.

Someone (was it Rog?) back in the thread mentioned Styleworks - I have the XT Styleworks program, set at KN5000 which is one of many reasons why I took Vista out of my 'puter and went back to XP Pro. To be honest, I have not got round to using the program, but I am sure I will one day soon - so few hours in the day and so many things on my 'To do' list !! I can't believe now that when I retired at 70, (five years ago), I was working a 12 hour day, six days a week, doing gigs 2 or 3 nights a week, and still had time for my many hobbies !!

By the way - in the compatibility posts, we have been trying files back and forth between the KN2600 and the KN7000.
You are all so right - you can play almost anything out of the 7000 in the 2600, but not the other way round, we have tried styles, instant records and also some commercial disks, so really - if my wife (Sunny) and I wish to exchange work on our machines, the only way would be to have two 7000's - I can't afford another one for a year or so - so guess that a one-way exchange will have to do for a while!

Regards to all,

John


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Audry,

No worries, Yamaha and Technics both have their own and different OS that can seem confusing if one is not accustomed to that OS. I agree owners manuals for both are often confusing. It's why Alec wrote a "How Do I Do That" book.

To each his own...

How was the Organ & Keyboard Cavalcade?

Although Panasonic/Technics no longer have a Musical Instrument section, it would be nice if, with all the talented people at their disposal they would commission someone to update their KN7000 USB drivers and original software to work within the Windows 7 x64 operating system.

After all their keyboards were built to last !!

Glen

Totally agree EMC did a lot of the work for Technics so perhaps they might help us if we could prove to them there is a need.
Regards John.D

Many of us lament the passing of Technics musical instruments. I used to run a Technics Music Academy in the mid 90's.. My music room was stocked with KN501, 701, 901, 920, 1500, 3000 and a PR50. I really enjoyed teaching the kids and particluarly the older folks just starting out with a retirement hobby.

However, I did feel the 'sound' didn't progress much after the KN3000. Cartainly the screens did, but sound for me was quite similar from then on. I think my favourite instrument Technics ever made was the KN1000. I loved the punchy backing styles it had. In fact I may pick up one on ebay sometime just for the nostalgia value!

Having said all that, Technics are missed. R.I.P