Although not a specific "Arranger" topic, somehow it ties in as there are a few out here who use these with Arrangers and are experts in AUDIO and can 'share' their knowledge with us.

So here we go ...

* Budget is $2000.00 MAX (excluding subs unless you rewcommend we replace the current 2 QSC K12s).
* You want to rock a room that holds about 400 ~ 500 people.
* You need Powered speakers.
* Using mainly an Arranger keyboard for DRUMS and keyboard parts (horns ... etc) but have a live lead Guitarist and Bass player.
* You have 2 female and 2 male vocalists.
* You need to get people dancing with Reggae, Soca, some Disco, a little Pop and Blues (to slow things down sometimes within a set), Afro Pop and... etc.
* You have 2 QSC K12 Subs (you'd rather keep unless you need to sell and upgrade entirely)... so right now,looking for tops to replace the QSC-HPR152! (these are too heavy and lacked a little mids when turned up)!

What are the best options out there and why?

Some have recommended 3 ways (e.g JBL PRX 635) which seem to sound great - what else is comarable ... or better still BETTER?

Very few companies are making 3 way powered though (I wonder why)? FBT, JBL? Are the 2 ways equally good?

Thanks for your help on this.

you can't buy much for $2,000 to move a crowd, assuming your looking for QUALITY sound)

12 sub, doesn't cut it for 500 people, maybe for 200 people

i'd say a single powered 18" would be better than 2-12"
but that right there is at least $1,000 (new QSC 18")

i think you'd have to spend at least $3,000 if not more to ROCK out 500 people with QUALITY sound

AJ,

you running the QSC-HPR152 full range?

you should use the mid/high out from the bass into the tops, so they ONLY put out mids/highs, (NO BASS), this way they will push much more power through those frequencies...

and use BASS bottom just for that BASS,
so you will have a nice 3-way sound,
(no low frequencies on the tops)

when i goto large halls i plug the tops to the mid/high out of the bass bottom.

when i goto small halls, i'll run full range out to my tops from the bass bottoms

You need good bass to start with, 15" or 18", the best subs I sell are the FBT or RCF, but they are on the expensive side but are light small and hit hard.

As for your tops. The only reason to have 15" like you have is if you don't want to use subs for smaller rooms or lower volumes.

I personally would spend money on a pair of 15 or 18" subs, then I would get 12" and horns for the tops, crossover the tops so they play around 80hz and up, maybe even a little higher, then set-up your subs with an Aux send, so you send only what you want to the subs, like drums, bass, arranger. then you have everything else go to the tops only, this way you clear up the midrange for a better punchier sound without taxing the speakers, and you add the umph to what needs it.

Leezone,

Thanks for that input. Great suggestion indeed, but I think the QSC tops are being picked up for their new home ... tonight! The weight was the main release factor.

Frank (as always), thanks for your input. I guess you'd recommend selling the K12 subs (both) for a 18 RCF/FBT? They are pretty portable (from the specs I see), and oh yes, we do need that BOTTOM!!! When I go and watch Reggae Bands play, you can feel your pants move even from as far as 20' away - but ofcourse their system should be in the $10,000.00 price point!

Keep the info coming in!

Frankie,

you like the RCF stuff?

i don't know, i've had a chance to hear them briefly, (the 12" or 15" powered tops) and they did not impress me,

i enjoyed my QSC HPR 122

i'm thinking of getting new sub(s), to go along with my HPR 12
i now have the old Mackie SRS 1500

i like these subs as they are compact, and i can actual lift them and take em to my DJ gigs...

what i don't like is that they do not throw the bass very far in large room, they sound great when you are close,

Frank, what would you recommend to replace these ols subs and to use with my HPR 122 ?? something portable, and self-powered, ?? i was thinking 18" for that extra punch,
and maybe even get JUST 1 for now (which may be better than my 2 mackie 15"'s

maybe QSC KW181 , only 83lbs... any good? probably hard to handle as they are wide

thanks

wow just realizes that my 15" mackie SRS 1500 is actually heavier than this 18" QSC KW181

Frank, or anyone have you heard these new KW series, and this bottom?

Are the bass and guitar player using their own gear for sound? Or will they also be run through the PA system? How big is the room? What is the setup? Like are these 500 people going to focus their attention on you guys and rocking out? Or is it more a dance hall type thing?

My band typically plays for venues of 500 and up to about 2000, we have a couple different setups for different type gigs.

For a dance hall type thing with people dancing, talking and you don't need that "in your face" sound, we use just two 15" horn subs and two 12" tops. 1000W amps per side for bass and 500W per side for tops. This sounds full and good enough. For rock concerts where people are rocking out and we need to punch out some ear drums we use eight 15" horn subs with 1000W per cab for bass and eight 12" tops with 500W per cab. We like 12" over 15" for tops because they tend to push out more mids faster - the 15" are a little slower and require more power. The reason we don't use 18" or 24" bass cabs is that they work better for disco, hiphop and trance music that require more sub-bass. For anything between 50hz and up a group of 15"s will push out more bass and air than a 18" cab. Atleast in my experience that is

DocZ

If you want cheap stuff, I've been using Behringers active speakers for 5 years now on the road - they have yet to fail me. Even though they are Behringer - the sound pretty decent.

DocZ

You DO know that you can get a lot more out of your subs if you stack them together? Subs are usually non-directional, so they can be either side of the stage or together, and it won't make much difference except within a few feet of them. But there's a thing called the 'coupling effect', where, if they are stacked on top or side by side, touching, the overall volume level from them is greater than if they were apart.

I know some bands run their subs in the MIDDLE of the stage (on the dance floor) side by side, and run their top cabs on poles out to the edges. Then, they put a monitor or something on it, (no point wasting extra stage room!) for the singer, and they get a VERY solid thump on the dance floor with less gear than you would expect...

Anyway, look into the 'coupling effect'. It's how things like the Bose get to sound so good.... little speakers, all stacked close to each other.

We stack four 15" together on each side, with the four tops stacked on top of them. That setup is loud enough for even larger venues and outdoors. In fact a touring norwegian top 20 band used to use this set as their main PA for 5 years. It is quite something. Not the highest quality brand in the world (it's a noname) - but it gets the job done. The amps are Crown and Peavey. We use an amp rack - just because it is easier to maintain and cheaper. Also you save a lot of weight on the cabs that way. And patching is a breeze. For instance if one unit cuts out, bridging another unit to drive more cabs is a fast operation.

But active has it's advantages to...

DocZ

doc-z,

Thanks for your input. Some answers for you.

Bass and guitar do have their own amps (which they use as stage monitors) AND they do run out of the PA/Mains as well. I find myself 'fighting' with the bass player all the time on PA levels ...

Typically, the band has been playing for about 300 people but the forthcoming event is for 350 ~ 500 at a Hilton hotel conference room (and consequent events will be of such nature). Usually they play for dinner 8-9pm which is when the 'softies come in, then around 10pm to midnight (talking, chatting, meeting with friends and ofcourse hopefully the dance floor (right infront of the group) should be filled up, rigth after they officially open the floor with a hot number.

The idea is also to have 2 main speakers that we can use as stand-alones (with no Subs) for smaller veuues of say 100-200 people, which is why I was thinking of the 3 Way Power speakers too. The subs should come out only for the bigger/larger gigs!

Now, would a 3 way system resolve your issue (of 15" not throwing out the Mids fast enough - eg the QSC KW 153?) I did notice 'slow response in Mids' with the QSC 152s (which are gone by the way) and had to compensate a lot with the EQ on the mixer.

Leezone, as we play similar types of music, we might actually have similar taste in speakers ... (again - might). Have you heard the QSC KW series? The K series sounds rather 'thin' for me so the fact that they use the same "K" Series amps in the KW series (just with wood and not plastic) is still keeping me away from these too - although the weight is down considerably.

Why do I feel like the HPR 153i is calling out now?

Also no mention of the "JBL PRX600 series" (2 EON G2 -15"s which have a very good and 'clean' sound by the way) are what they use for Monitors!

Keep the suggestions coming. Ofcourse I will have to actually go and listen to them, but it would help to narrow down the list a bit.

Looks like we have to go up to $3000.00 now and include Subs (have to sell the K12s so if anyone is interested, let me know 2 new units with barely 5 months of use and 5.5years warantee left I believe.

Leezone,

Looks like the QSC KW181s might be the way to go (when one factors in everything) or the JBL PRX618S-XLF which has some great low-end coverage and seems to be able to operate alone (for a start) ... thought the Italian FBT and RCFs are worth considering as they are great in 'sound'!

Lee, when you say that I like the RCFs, you didn't mention which series, they make about 4 series of speakers, I'm not a fan of the lower series, but the top 2 series sound great.

I think my overall favorite would be the FBTs , but they are not cheap, but sound amazing. I think the FBT and RCF subs sound great.

I can look into the QSC subs if you like. Also another contender has been the new Yamaha series of DSR wood box speakers, with a 2" diaphragm horn, they sound great

The acoustic coupling effect is true on subs, I would always stack them side by side, instead of on-top of each other, once you reach a certain height, you will create a standing wave from the higher sub when the wave hits the floor, it will actually start to cancel out the lower subs waveform.

If you take your subs and always try to put them against a wall that will also increase the "coupling effect" and also help in making sure you don't accidentally create another standing wave from the space between the back wall and the subs.

...which brings me to the question...

Same manufacturer, same series, similar specs, which is better

* 2 - 15" Subs

OR

* 1 - 21" Sub?

In my opinion 2x15" will give you a lot more punch, while 1x21" will give you more sub bass (<50hz)

For rock music type music I'd go with 2x15", and for electronic music I'd go with 1x21".

But that is my taste. I like to emphasize the low mids / high lows, because that's where the punchy thump is.

DocZ

i'm liking the KW181 as they are lighter than my Mackie SRS1500

i think the RCF and FBT are over 100lbs, not practical for 1 man operation, i can handle the 83 lbs KW181

that's 5lbs lighter than my OLD Mackie SRS1500 15" sub,
and 400W More powerful.
i'm always clipping my subs, which means i need more power :-)

the only thing that sucks IMO, is the new screw on stand,
many times i have to play or DJ on the floor, with these poles, my QSC tops would hit the audience right in the ears...
i want sound OVER, and would rather not use extra stands
my existing sub poles are adjustable which i like,
wish QSC would make longer or adjustable poles

Frankie, do look into that KW181 for me please...

QSC makes some great stuff, your weight figures are a little off. Send me an email and I'll get you a price on the QSC


http://www.rcf.it/en_US/professional-speaker-systems/sub-series/sub-718-as 89 lbs

http://www.fbt.it/ENG/PAE/PRODOTTI/SPEAKERS/ProMaxX/ProMaxX-15/index.asp 72 lbs

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/kw_series/ 88 lbs

RCF specs say 700w amp, but then say 1,000 W power
which is it? or is this continuous/peak?

and then FBT says 1200W and it's JUST a 15" woofer ???

is this 1200W peak or continuous?

i have a hard time believing that this 15" can put out more db/watts vs the 18"

We use these two Mackie SRM 1801 subs coupled with 2 JBL G2 tops & I used my 2 Thump 15's hooked into them also.. Friday night at a 450pp event two acts DJ & Myself on Keyboard on the other side.. in one word AWESOME sound.!!

AJ,
Did you say you have QSC K12s as subs? They have great bass, but they should be your tops. I own a pair and I don't even use subs, but I don;t do large crowds anymore, either. I suggest a good solid 500-1000 watt sub and use the K12s as the tops - it'll fill any size room.

UD,

Thanks for the catch ....No no noo....

Please replace "K12" with K-SUB (the Sub with two 12" speakers in it at 1000W) - sorry for the mix up.

The subs are the K-Sub!

Thanks,

AJ

Oh, OK - I do understand ... they sound wonderful, but lack that "in your gut" punch that the Mackie or JBL has. My big band (10 pc with horns) uses one Mackie sub and it's plenty for most of our things, but if we go over 300 ppl, we use a second sub and larger tops too.

I think an ideal setup that's still kinda portable would be 2 Mackies and 2 K-12s.

I am a big fan of using 12" top cabs if you have 15" subs. I find there's less 'mud' in the mix from the top cabs emphasizing the low mids by the larger speaker. If you have an 18" sub, them maybe OK, but one of the very best combos I ever worked with (albeit unpowered, but JBL make the PRX powered line, too) was the JBL SR series 12" on top of Mackie subs. Absolutely AMAZING power handling and throw, and more low end than some 15" cabs, definitely enough to hook up well with subs crossed over at about 150Hz...

Not cheap, but you get what you pay for, plus they have the benefit of being small enough to use on just about ANY gig, not just high volume ones.

I second the 12" over the 15"

Here's my experience:
5" Hard, but detailed, mid to high very good and balanced, great in line arrays.
8" Soft, detailed, often surprisingly good low mid response. Great in line arrays
10" Hard, sometimes harsh, lacks lower mids, and tend to over exaggerate the mids.
12" Clear, punchy, good across the whole low mid to high range
15" Muddy, loud, but not as detailed, often too slow to bash out the higher mids.
>15" seldom good for anything other than bass. Maybe some low mid for horns - but rarely any good.

This is just my opinion.

A line array with subs on the floor might also be worth checking out for you guys. Those give very good clarity, coverage and separation.

DocZ

.. also seems like rule of thumb (though not sure what book this came from) would be to have your subs up one size from your mains (I share this feeling with some on this forum as well) ... eg if you have 15" subs, it's better to have 10" mains; if you have 18" subs, it's better to have 15" mains ... etc.

I think we are narrowing down the search to ...

2 Yamaha DSR112's

2 FBT ProMax 15aSa (these come highly recommended)

Frank, doc-z, Dikki, Leezone, DNJ and UD - your experience has really been very helpful and your suggestions are well taken. The QSC HPR and K-subs have been sold. Now back to the drawing board to hopefully get 'better' that what we had ...without breaking the bank!

Actual crowd size at next event is actually 420 (per ticket sales)

... ops, before I forget, anyone with experience using YORKVILLE Powered speakers? Seems to all be designed and built/made in ... CANADA and they do have some nice reviews out there too.

Well no, but I am using a Traynor K4 keyboard amp by Yorkville and am very happy with it so that would give me confidence about the quality of their other products.

AJ, I used the Yorkville NX520p..550 watts each (pair) with a Yorkville 700 watt subwoofer..This is an excellent sound system $2,200 street price..

Going on 9 years with the band till we replaced it with a pair of Podium 1204's($550 pr)..Now it is our back up system..