Ian Styles are nothing but sequences...and they sound the same when chorded by you or I...Playing over sequences adds just as much demension...maybe more..and today's arrangers with markers and changing tones on the fly...makes a sequence just as much your own, as playing style patterns with a few chord changes and fills...Think about it... [/quote]

Fran - Styles are indeed sequences... and styles are optimised for the respective keyboard they are released on. YES you can convert a korg to a roland style and tweak it to sound better on the Roland. this is possible - I am sure you have proven this BUT it is only a minor percentage of the total of styles...

What i mean is there might be 400 styles on the Korg PA 800 and 20 of them might sound better on the the roland after tweaking... but then again - most people tweak factory styles anyway so it proves yet again that you cannot compare a keyboard's sound output using the SAME sequence file...

Nick

Well, Fran, I don't agree with your statement at all.

If you played a tune using a style, and I played the same tune using the same style, we would definitely sound different...even on the same keyboard.

A SMF, despite having markers and repeats, is not the same as using a style...if it was, then why have styles on the keyboard?

Why not just have 500 SMF files (or MP3) instead of 500 styles?

No, I can't agree they are very much alike at all...they do have similarities, but not enough to say they "sound the same".

I would not play if I had to use SMF...I prefer controlling the instrument's direction myself, and not use a recording of a song to play over. I never use song specific styles, unless I use them for a completely different song.

Maybe it's a fine line for you, but it isn't for me...not one bit.

If you are successful with your method, then that's wonderful and it isn't any less skillful than my method, but, it's certainly not how I want to play an arranger.

Ian

Sorry, but I liked the second a hair more... maybe for that nice swelled snare roll. You've got to try a bit harder to have them at the same volume, though... In general, in most blind listening tests, the louder file will often be perceived as the 'better'.

OK, now I got to the second page... Guess I picked the Korg!

What happened to that snare roll in the conversion? You see, that's what I'm talking about. Yep, back in the good ol' days, things used to convert pretty well. But General MIDI has gone out the window. All the major manufacturers NEW products have kits and sounds and technologies that DO NOT translate.

Drum kits with flams, ruffs and rolls that don't follow any standard, guitar modes that don't translate, Mega Voices - the list of non-GM sounds (which are often the really tasty stuff) keeps growing, and making translation harder and harder. Sure, older legacy stuff still can be tweaked up. But most of the MODERN styles have issues, like that roll, for instance.

BTW, if you want to compare a hair more evenly, turn OFF any mastering EQ and compressors in both units. They color the sound too much, IMO.

On to the next topic...

Guys, there is NO reason why BOTH systems of playback can't be used. Each has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. Anyone that slavishly sticks to one or the other is simply making a philosophical decision, not a MUSICAL one. The endless repetition of arranger style mode, the inability for basslines to go TOWARDS a set of changes, the lack of voice leading in all the other voices, they are as apparent a weakness in that mode as the fixture of chord voices in SMF's. And, yes, styles ARE short triggered MIDI files. While chord changes can be imposed on them, the parts WITHIN the variation remain constant. We still have a long way to go technologically before a true 'musical' randomness can be introduced to the static sequences used to make styles. KARMA is a LONG way away from making musical variation. Sure, it can do random, but MUSICAL variation is anything BUT random!

As Chas kind of points out, NONE of these examples is much of a decent trade off for REAL musicians. We are merely arguing which is slightly LESS 'fake' than the other. Under varying circumstances, BOTH of them can be the more realistic. But that realism NEVER even comes close to true musicians.

And, once again we are discussing the differences between sequences someone ELSE made, and styles someone ELSE made. Either way you cut it, you aren't playing YOUR music. Just using someone else's, in slightly different ways. You want to start a big brouhaha over it, have at it! Just remember, if you didn't make the style or the SMF, you are using someone ELSE'S work, no matter how much of yourself you try to put in it. Neither side has any right to point fingers at the other, IMO.

Me, I use BOTH. And a bunch of self made sequences, and a bunch of just playing live, and a bunch of sequences MADE from styles, and whatever else the job TAKES. And I don't lose a moment's sleep over it! I suggest you all calm down and do the same...

I'm a little puzzled Ian. Disregarding what you are playing with the right hand if you chord a style with the left hand, how is that going to sound different from someone else chording it the same way? I don't see why it would.

And the reason for not having 500 SMFs instead of styles is that SMFs don't respond dynamically to realtime chording like styles do ... you already know that.

Nigel, I suspect that my chord voicings would be (and can be) quite different from Fran's...in fact, much different...that's why we wouldn't sound the same. Plus, we would use fills differently, even endings and intros (which I often re-use throughout a tune)...we both have developed our own technique from so many years playing.

Also, if Fran was using a Roland, and I, a Yamaha, the former does not support rootless voicings...also one of the reasons many jazz players find Roland arrangers lacking...it's fine for most players.

There would be a difference. Trust me.

Ian

I guess I should have clarified my post a bit. What I want to hear when someone offers a comparison is a very-similar style playing the same songs on two different keyboards. For example, how about the song "Until It's Time For Me To Go" by Neil Diamond/Elvis Presley. Select a great waltz style on the G-70 and another on the PA800. Set the EQ's of both keyboards to flat, use the same right hand voices, same tempo, same volume, same everything. Play the songs the same, exact way, using the same fingering technique, etc.. This allows everyone to compare the two keyboards sound engines, individual sound qualities, etc.. What would be so difficult about that.

I thought the original purpose of the post was to demonstrate which keyboard sounded best while playing the same song.Then I quickly discovered I was listening to a GM file, which will always sound best on the keyboard which it was created upon. This essentially tells me nothing about the keyboard's sound engine and what it is capable of providing. I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I personally, WOULD NOT purchase a keyboard based upon what I heard from a MIDI file. I have, however, purchased several keyboards based upon what I heard from the onboard styles and right-hand voices, mainly because that tells me what it will sound like in MY hands as well.

When Fran made his original post he stated the song was recorded on the G-70 and PA800. In reality, this appears not to be the case. The song was, obviously, a MIDI file that someone else had created as a GM file and played through both keyboards. From MY viewpoint, because of reasons stated earlier, that's not comparing apples to apples. That's why I would like Fran to play the song LIVE. He apparently has both keyboards sitting in his domicile, therefore it should be a piece of cake for him to do this.

Cheers,

Gary

Gary, recorded to me means recorded...as in audio...

A SMF is as fair as it can be...Every company has a GM2 compatible wavetable...that is designed to sound as close as possible to the "standard"..

The Nitelife example was recorded without eq or compression for both keyboards...

Can't be any more apples to apples..

Well said, Gary.

I like your idea as below...

Fran "select a style on the G-70 and another on the PA800. Set the EQ's of both keyboards to flat, use the same right hand voices, same tempo, same volume, same everything. Play the songs the same, exact way, using the same fingering technique, etc.. This allows everyone to compare the two keyboards sound engines, individual sound qualities, etc.. What would be so difficult about that?."

I believe what would be so difficult about that is Fran does most, if not all his songs, over an SMF. Asking him to use "style play" would be beyond what he is used to doing, so I can understand why he is so reticent about making the recording,

It's too bad, because Fran is considered a good player and singer...he has nothing to hide behind. I can't imagine he's refusing because it won't sound good, or he's afraid of being criticized. No one here, that I know, would be unfair to Fran.

I would have enjoyed hearing his style play performances immensely, and I am sure many other SZ'ers would as well.

Plus, we'd hear how these instruments sound in a more natural and realistic situation...very important.

Ian

Gary, I just don't see playing a song like "Until it's time for me to go" would showcase any keyboard comparison...that is why I chose to use a dance tune (SMF)...

Whenever I perform ..playing that tune ...I play rubato , and only piano....for a more expressive feel..

Guys , I can play a melody over chords just like you do..and I can right hand or both hand comp over arranger auto play too...

There is no purpose to illustrate this...and would not give a better comparison from what I posted as examples already...