I have to agree with you. I can't see that there is another arranger module in its price range to compete with it. Yamaha certainly don't seem to have one. Though I am surprised they haven't tried to enter this area of the arranger market.

Yes it is valid, Sweenie, that is because make-up tools do not allow you to substitute the bass line of one style to that of another, ...they will not alter chord vamps...yes, you can revoice a style...that's lovely...you can do that on a low-end Casio.

I understand where you are coming from, and it's very nice you are enthusiastic about the module, and well you should be, since it is literally Roland's only real arranger at this time (with the exception of the VIMA and Atelier, and the very basic session partner in some of their stage pianos).

Me saying the module does not have a Style Editor (not a re-voicer) is not a sweeping statement...it's a fact.

Now, I'm not trying to rain on your parade...I'm tickled half way out of my mind for you that you are pleased with what Roland has made.

However, I am not quite as thoroughly pleased as you...based on the lack of a style editor, I would not buy a BK-7m, nor would I recommend it to anyone that has become used to having it in an arranger. From my experience, a lot more people use style editing/assembly than you think...I do a tutorial on style assembly/editing/re-voicing as part of my Yamaha clinics, and so do the other clinicians, and it is easy to do.

We all agree that styles are the heart of an arranger, so it should follow that being able to customize/reprogram/assemble them easily shouldn't be an option...it should be available on the instrument.

Perhaps Roland can add Style Creator in their BK-7m MarkII, and while they are at it, they can add a pedal controlled glide/pitchbend. Please.


Ian

Nigel, believe me, I hope Roland succeed with their new module...personally, I think it comes up short, as I have worked as a clinician for Roland in the past, and have used their earlier modules, the RA-series, which were awesome.

Yamaha has dabbled in the module area not that long ago with their QY-series of sequencer/arranger modules.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/sequencers/qy300/?mode=model

Not big sellers, but they did okay...the smaller ones, like the QY-10/20 sold very well indeed, but it is a kind of niche market, and so they got out of it for now, at least.

I'm not expecting Yamaha to make a module, nor do I think Korg will make one either, as, for one thing, they don't make accordions like Roland, who is definitely aiming the BK-7m at that segment...that's where/why the old Roland RA-series was started...hence the hiring back then of Luigi Bruti (master accordionist) when they were introduced.

As I said at the beginning of this post, I really hope they succeed with the module, but, I also hope they will be open-minded enough to listen to suggestions and tips from other people in the arranger business so that the module will mature into something even better...that can't hurt, can it?

Ian

I have read and re-read your post so as not to misinterpret or misquote you. Let me start by making this GENERAL statement. THE MOST DIFFICULT THING IN ALL OF MUSICDOM TO CONTROL WITH A KEYBOARD CONTROLLER IS AN ARRANGER MODULE. By their uniqueness and the very nature of the way they are used in live performance, no controller that I know of is designed with 'arranger' features. You could program your super-sophisticated controller until you're blue in the face and still not get anywhere near the kind of 'fast and intuitive navigation' (as prized by working pro's like Donny and others) found on (even cheapo) integrated keyboard arrangers. Personally, I would never choose this route if that were going to be my ONLY arranger. Now, on to your points.

1. "Well priced" - that's only true if you REALLY, REALLY like it.

2. "Value for the money" - VERY subjective. Many of the sounds are good enough to use in the role of 'sound module' in the studio, but this role could also be filled by the much cheaper SonicCell or SD2 (or software).

3. "Weight" - one of the LAST reasons to buy an arranger. You still have to add the weight of the controller keyboard and you still have to LIKE the thing to begin with.

4. "Makeup tools" - here again, you have to like the basic style to begin with before you start 'tweaking' it. In my case (and I realize that this is personal), I have only found ONE style that I actually like. 2 or 3 others are usable (for ME) with some tempo and voice tweaks.

5. "Accordionist and Guitarist...." - Again, what would be appealing to these types of musicians is the CONCEPT of the BK7m, not necessarily the instrument itself. They still have to like the styles since they are the MOST likely to use it strictly as a backing module.

6. "I really can't see what's not to like...." - how about the STYLES; after all, isn't that what Arrangers are all about?

You said you were amazed that I didn't like your Rhianna demo, that perhaps it was too 'modern' for me; trust me, that was not the reason I didn't like it. I do, however, apologize for the 'bullet in the head' comment. You weren't a Synthzone member at the time, which made you fair game for an honest reaction to your presentation. For some reason, the BK7m seems to accentuate the monotonous quality that is already inherent in arrangers. Telmo does a good job of avoiding this by using large amounts of 'external' content and production techniques that would be difficult, if not impossible, to duplicate in a live performance situation. Tony believes this will sell a lot of Tyros 4's. It may, but those buying one and expecting to sound like Telmo, are going to be hugely disappointed.

Look, I'm no different than anyone else, in the sense that I would LOVE to be able to justify my purchase by (falsely) singing it's praises. I gave my honest, though admittedly subjective, opinion and consider it to be as valid for me as yours is for you. That's the way the world works, if not necessarily the way it works on THIS board . I felt the hostility when I suggested that Deane's dream of having a module OTB that required no tweaks and was somehow perfect for everybody, was more like a pipe dream. People are different, with different likes and dislikes. Nowhere is this more true than among musicians.

There was a pent-up desire for an arranger module and this one hit the market first. Everyone wants this module to be 'THE one', so this sets the stage for being easily swayed by well-articulated posts such as yours. I bought mine without hearing it first, based upon many of the points you made in your post. Once I had it in my hands, I didn't like it and none of your points had any real bearing on it. I won't sell it, because I like gadgets, but if I had had it in my possession for a day or two before purchasing, I would not have bought it. I had no previous exposure to the the e50,e60,e80,g70,GW7/8,Prelude or any other Roland arranger since the G1000, else I probably would have known what to expect. I probably would not like the G70 either, if this is representative of Roland styles. JMO.

chas

I just checked my Boxnet account and there is no reason why the demos should fail to play or download.

By they way, I'am not that blown away by the styles either. My main complaint is the sounds Roland used in OTS settngs. Many of the styles have very strange sounding OTS voices. Changing these is not hard on a regular arranger but a real pain on the module because of the user interface. But, I'am going to give it a fair trial before I make any decision about keeping or selling it.

Hammer

I find the reaction to my post very interesting indeed. I think that perhaps Ian and Chas, you have taken offence from it in a way which is not intended. I can assure you that there is not intent to offend anyone here at the forum.

My post was for the most part actually directed at Mark79100 when he said

I agree with him perfectly; even if you didn't like the on-board styles, there is a massive back catalogue available, some of which existing Roland users will have, which can be loaded extremely quickly (quicker than any previous Roland instrument.) This means it may suit existing Roland users very well.

Now, to respond to some of your points and critisisms of my post though....

Hmmm... I'd appreciate it if you would call me Sweentech or John. I am neither Sweenie or Sweetie. I do you the courtesy of calling you Ian, as you sign off your postings.


Forgive me, but by not having a style creator, I thought that was obvious.


Yes you can revoice on other instruments, but Make-up tools are not just about substituting voices. It is far more than that, and you seem to either not know that, or are disparaging about it. I know of no other instruments which allow the detail of editing offered by Roland on their E80, G70 and now BK-7m. I believe these are still unique in for example offering individual parametric EQ per part with-in the style or midi file. How many other instruments allow you to assign up to 3 multiFX (not just reverb and chorus) into a style or midi file? How many allow you to perform realtime filter sweeps manually? How many allow you to alter the octave position of the voice? How many allow you to dynamically control the style in realtime without using a dedicated volume controller? How many do all of these in one instrument? Not even the mighty Tyros 4! (as much as I like that too.)


You see, I had moved on from talking to you directly by then Ian. I have at no time suggested otherwise about the instrument having a style creator. In-fact I have previously answered questions to say it doesn't have one. Having said that, I still don't find it an essential on the instrument considering the same functionality is available in software with the likes of EMC Style Works XT. This would allow a user who didn't own a Roland keyboard with a style creator facility to create styles. Whilst I am aware that this is not included in the price, I am personally happy to do without it on the machine, and I am still comfortable in recommending it to others despite this (Unless it was their only reason for wanting one)

Thanks, but there is no need to feel tickled pink for me. I am tickled pink myself.



That is absolutly fine Ian. However it is interesting to note that you have still not indicated you have had hands-on experience of one. Personally, I do not think that entitles you to put other potential purchasers off buying one, or at very least, as I have recommended from the start, actually trying it for themselves before deciding to buy.


I suggest you make your wishes known to Roland by email directly to them, rather than continually going on about this on a public forum which it is likely isn't read by the development staff in Italy! If you emailed Roland Canada (your local distributor), I am sure they would be happy to convey your wishes to Italy on your behalf. In my experience, when I have emailed Roland UK (my local distributor) and made suggestions, they have been passed on. I have always found Roland to be a company who listen to their clients.


Please see the last part of this post above.


That's interesting Ian. Neither the RA30/50/90/95 had style edit capabilities, yet you thought they were awesome. The RA800 did have style creation ability, indicating that Roland have tried putting this feature into a module in the past, and have specifically chosen not to do so again. Perhaps this indicates there was little or no user demand for it. Again for this reason, I suggest you email your wishes to Roland directly. If enough people ask for it, it will surely be forthcoming.

Chas, let me now come to your points. Firstly let me say that I do respect your opinion, particularly since, like me, you own a BK-7m.



As you say, it is a general statement. Personally I disagree that this is the most difficult thing in all of musicdom. I would perhaps say that playing can be, particularly if like me you are not really that naturally talented a musician. However, I agree to differ if you do?!


I would agree with that, based on my knowledge of the controller market. I don't think any company currently makes one with arranger facitilies being the priority.


Again, I disagree there. IMO and it is just my opinion, there are so many cheapo arrangers as you call them, which don't have many facilites to control in realtime, that this statement becomes unfair.

Well you may if you liked the Roland sound so much, because as Ian put it

Well I for one really really like it.

I don't think this is a subjective point at all. In my opinion, it is factual to say this module costs less than half the price of a G70 or E80 when new, which in my opinion means this is good value for money.

Agreed!
Well I own a SonicCell too. But it doesn't have many of the facilities offered by the BK7m such as individual part EQ (as mentioned above.) As part of it's value for money index, the Sonicell isn't an arranger either, so looking at it as an equivalent doesn't stack up. It is excellent in it's own right at what it does, and for it's intended market. The SD2 just does not have the quality of Roland sound in my opinion.

Not for the customers in my store. This was the one thing which put many people off buying a G70 or E80. Whilst it may not be at the forefront of everyone's consideration, with the fact that arranger players on the whole are getting older ( and unfortunately dying off), this is becoming a more and more important aspect of the buying decision. It appeared to me as soon as I saw the BK-7m that Roland had listened to the public in this respect. I believe otherwise, we would have seen a much larger unit to compete directly with the likes of the Ketrons, and priced accordingly.

I partially agree with that statement, but I have found styles in the past which I have not liked when I listened to them, but have worked with them, and revoiced them so radically that they become useable. I respect that you do not like the styles. At least you have tried them! For me, on the whole, I like them. That is just my opinion too.

I certainly agree the concept would be appealling, and having spoken to many in the last few weeks in my store, many of them like the unit too. I can see many being sold to customers like this.

Yup that is for the most part what arrangers are about. I'll agree to differ with you on whether or not they are good or bad on the BK-7m.

Ok now you have misquoted me... I said... If you don't like the demo, then that's fine. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however I have received amny complements for the demo both on the comments on the youtube page and by email from users who didn't post on the page.

Sorry, this was the reason given to me by a forum member for the bullet comment. I assumed that since it refered to 'we' as in all forum members , that this included you. I apologise for suggesting that you thought it was 'too modern for you.'

True
I think tbh that posting a video on YouTube makes the poster fair game for an honest reaction. I justr thought a 'bullet in the head' was extreme, to say the least. However, I was prepared to laugh it off when I joined as a member and still am. Please do not apologise anymore. I have always been willing to put it behind us.

Now this is what I take exception to. Here you insinuate that I have falsely sung the praises of the BK-7m to justify my purchase of the unit. First, I am no liar. I genuinely like this instrument and am appalled that you think otherwise or that you would insinuate otherwise. Secondly, I don't have to justify my purchase to anyone, least of all myself, or anyone on this forum. I will purchase anything I darn well like. Furthermore, I'll be the judge of whether I should be allowed to buy one, or play it, and even demo it.

I have not suggested you were dishonest in any way, nor do I believe your opinion is any less valid than mine. However, it appears you think that I think it is. This is how these things get out of hand. This is perhaps the bickering which Nigel has spoken about at the top of the forum? Perhaps we should ALL GROW UP, and put this behind us. Everyone's opinion is valid, and justified if you have actually tried this unit for yourself.

not from me you didn't. I agree in a perfect world a TOTL arranger would come out of the box and be perfect for eveyone. Let's face it, it's never going to happen. We agree on this. Even if it had everything to suit everyone, there would be those who would moan about it being too expensive because it has more stuff than they personally use in it. For this reason, I am very happy with my BK-7m, as it is not one you would call top of the line, (given it's price) and is not going to be perfect for everyone. I can see it has it's faults, but for me these are justified by the low price.

True, but there should be no place for musical fascism. We should all respect each others liking for different styles of music, and not denigrate them for it.

I am incredibly impressed that you think my postings have been well articulated , however I am a mere humble man with a humble opinion. I have not saught to force it on anyone, but wanted to have an active discussion about the merits of this module.

I would never advise anyone to buy something without trying it first. For this reason, and in my very first posting on ths board, I said...


If you have purchased one on my word only then I wish you had read this part more carefully.

Now to Nigel's post:

Nigel, thank you. You are a gentleman. I too am surprised there has been a lack of activity by the major manufacturers in this product category for many years.

To everyone:

Please let us move this discussion forward. It really seems to me to be breaking down into a personality battle. I have no wish to participate in such a battle, and so this will be my last posting on that subject. I am happy however to discuss the relative attributes of the BK-7m.

Thanks John,

Whew! After wading through that lengthy but relatively interesting post, I only want to repeat my statement in that I will not be recommending the BK-7m to those wanting an arranger with a Style Creator. Yes, make-up tools are okay, but, I'm afraid they still don't make up for a genuine style creator.

Companies do what they believe is best even if it appears irrational to the professional player...sometimes it turns out to be a mistake, and sometimes it works.

I hope the product does well...as I said earlier, it is Roland's only playing card for now.

Hopefully subsequent models will at least have a style creator (or at the very least, Style Assembly), and yes, it's best to move on, as no amount of discussion is going to magically add that feature to the present unit. We only wish it would be that easy.

Best of luck with yours,

Ian

PS...I think it's wise to air these things on the forum as well as to contact the manufacturer, and/or the local rep...both of which I have done since reading your post.

John, you are a valuable addition to this forum. I hope you will stick around!
DonM

Thank you Ian. I am very pleased to hear you have contacted Roland directly. One can only hope that you get your wish. In the past Roland have added features to their products (like G70 for example) with the introduction of version 2 (Guitar mode was added then) and version 3 (all parts individual EQ added) firmware. If enough people want it, you may well get it!

Regards

John

Sure will Don!