Hi scott,

This is very interesting to me. I am at work just now so have access to a T4 and a PA2x pro. Could you please let me know what fingering mode you have on these to achieve these chords?

I am not a jazz player at all, though I enjoy the sound, so I'd like to investigate this. Being a self-taught bedroom player mostly, and having learned from easy play tutor books, I have never known how to voice out 'jazz' chords so this is very educational for me. Once I mastered the basics from books I just went off and did my own thing, and developed my own style.

At the moment I am not getting the correct bass pitches automatically (without playing the bass note at the low end of the chord.) Any further help would be appreciated.

John

On a Tyros 4, use

* A1 Fingered Mode (set split point at F#2)
* Full Keyboard Mode

Notes to play (with piano voice enabled) in LH:

F1 - C2 - E2 : Dm7(9)
F1 - B1 - E2 : G7(13)
E1 - A1 - D2 : C6(9)

F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2: Gm7
E1 - Bb1 - D2: C7(9)
E1 - F1 - A1 - C2: FM7

Eb1 - A1 - D2: F7(13)

It's been a while since I've played a PA2X,
but I got the same/similar chord recognition results playing the Pa2X in 'full keyboard' mode.
Not sure if any of the PA2X's fingered modes recognized this or not. Perhaps you can check these and report back.
Also, Make sure the latest current OS is installed on both keyboards.

John, looking forward to the results of your findings.

Hi Scott,

Ok I have tried both machines and compared with the BK7m. Both Tyros and PA2x behave as described in A1 Fingered mode, and for the PA in Expert mode. On the BK7m the G7(13) chord plays fine as do all 7(13) chords in intelligent mode. It is your 6(9) and 7(9) which are not recognised with the fingerings you describe, though they are perfectly achievable with additional notes. i am guessing the reason you don't want the additional notes is because you are overlaying a melodic sound on top of the style's chord? If so, thanks for pointing it out. I'll forward this to Roland, and see if anyone knows what i am on about when I try to describe the situation!

John

Hi John, what specific additiona(?) note(s) do you need to play on the Roland BK7m to achieve a Dm7(9) and C6(9) chord recogition? Please post all notes played (as I have done above) and the chord recognition result displayed on the BK7m. It would also be useful to know the actual chord recognition results displayed on the BK7m for all the chord voicings I listed above. I'm keeping my hopes up that Roland will finally come on board with this, as it is so useful and essential for authentic jazz piano style playing in the style of Jamie Cullum, Diana Krall, and of course the legendary Bill Evans and Wynton Kelly.

Thanks - Scott

Hi Scott,

Sorry I didn't check for replies whilst at work today, so I only just got this. I have come upstairs to my studio. Here are the results you get on the BK7m in intelligent mode with your notes:

F1 - C2 - E2 : Fmaj7
F1 - B1 - E2 : G7, 13
E1 - A1 - D2 : A sus

F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2: Gmin7
E1 - Bb1 - D2: Bb5b
E1 - F1 - A1 - C2: Fmaj7

Eb1 - A1 - D2: F7, 13

Now to get the chords you want to play correctly in Intelliget mode you play:

Dm7(9) : D1 - F1 - C2 - E2 (A1 can also be added but is not necessary)
G7, 13 : F1 - B1 - E2
C6, 9 : C1 - E1 - G1 - A1 - D2

Gmin7 : F1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2
C7, 9 : C1 - E1 - G1 - Bb1 - D2 (on this occasion the V is necessary otherwise you get Bb5b, 9)
Fmaj7 : E1 - F1 - A1 - C2

F7, 13 : Eb1 - A1 - D2

John, many thanks for taking the time to post the Bk7m's chord recognition for my above chord voicings.
I'm disappointed that after all these years ( over ten since I've pushed for this) that Roland still hasn't come on board with it yet because II -V7 - I is the most common chord progression seen in all jazz standards, often appearin many times throughout a song ( ie Satin Doll), so the ability to play this progression with the minimum of jumping around the keyboard (known as smooth voice leading) is essential, esp on slower tunes and in a typical small jazz combo setting where the live keyboard player typically avoids playing the chord's root note when comping, leaving that to the bass player, or on an arranger, the auto-accomp bass part. Only playing in this manner on an arranger keyboard will you be able to emulate and produce the unique open piano comping sound of trio jazz like Diana Krall, Jamie Cullum, and Peter Cincotti.

John, I'm hoping the power of your music store influence might help convince Roland to finally add or augment the above rootless jazz chords to their chord recognition table. Please talk to your Roland contacts and let me know what they say. The BK7m looks like it would be a great unit for me otherwise. Thanks.

Strange that Roland hasn't updated it's accompaniment engine to include rootless voicings. They aren't just used in Jazz, but in a lot of pop, and R&B, and Gospel tunes as well.

Yes, Roland has ON BASS capability, but it is not the same thing.

Anyone who plays Hammond B-3 will be very familiar with rootless chord voicings allowing for smooth voice leading, and it is an integral part of piano accompaniment, and not just a luxury on an arranger keyboard anymore, but a necessity.

I hope Roland see their way clear to implement it on their next new arranger.

Ian

Hi Ian, you're absolutely right on 'both' points.
I of course play root chords including their inversions as well, but rootless voiced chords simply adds more to the musical palette to pick and choose from and keep the music sounding "fresh & interesting",
especially when playing in full keyboard pianist mode or when the LH part is assigned to piano, organ, or EP, and of course with the LH keyboard part activated & heard.
Speaking of, go back & listen to Jimmy Smith and Tony Monaco They both include plenty of rootless chords & chord progressions when they play.