I love this thing so far, but there is something that still eludes me. On everything I've ever had, you can switch performances (registrations) without altering the currently playing rhythm pattern (or style). I can't seem to lock out the command to change patterns on the BK. I can lock tempo, voice change and lots of others, but I want to be able to keep a pattern running and call up new sound combinations. Seems like old news for arrangers, right? Everything does this. What am I missing?

Every time I select a performance, a new (previously assigned) rhythm/style is selected. Hmmmmmm .... anyone?

On Yamaha there is a "Parameter Lock" page...does the BK-7M have it's equivalent but perhaps they call it something else?

Also there is a "Freeze" function (you probably know this since you had a PSR-3000), so there must be a similar function on the Roland, again, perhaps under a different name?

Ian

Ian, yes to both, but the obvious named choice is missing. You cannot freeze or lock out anything called style or pattern. (scratches head) ...

That is a strange one...and something you'd probably find necessary, at least to some degree.

Well, with John being the new resident Roland Guru, I'm sure he's got a good handle on how to find those functions, and clear up this minor issue.

Appears to be a nice package, otherwise, Dave, and would certainly fit well with your present setup.

BTW, I reintroduced the volume pedal to my Tyros4...man, I don't know why I ever stopped using it years ago...perhaps because all arrangers had velocity sensitivity. But, it is nice to be able to alter the volume of a note after it's been played.

In regards to your situation, I'm sure John will have a solution...I can't see something that important left off.

Ian

Dave try creating a custom user styles re save with a different name....sounds or ots are usually connected by default to.the styles.

Donny, that won't work. I want the flexibility to change patterns on the fly and not have to worry about what is linked to what. If I'm in the middle of a dance number and just want to mix up the instruments - I can't have the pattern change on me while people are on the floor.

Hello Dave

The setting is in the Arranger setting parameter menu under Tempo.

Hope this helps

Bill

Sorry Dave,
I've been in the garden all day, so just got this. I don't think it can be done, though the tempo can be locked. Perhaps a suggestion for an OS upgrade? This is something I never use. I find performances so convenient, I use them for everything. I never use the exact same sounds for two songs. There are always at least a few tweaks here or there. However o remember the fuss when my HX came out. It lost the 'D' button and a lot of people weren't happy. So I guess like you there are many others who may want this feature.

I'll suggest it, but would suggest you contact Roland too. The last few strangers Roland have made have had good new features added through a softwRe upgrade, so now us the time to ask for what you want.

John

Gotcha just trying to assist.....good luck figuring it all out!

OK - found a few answers, and a few still evade me.

#1 - Fran, you'll like this - if you load a song file (smf or audio) and start play, you can then go to the next one to be played and select it .... now if you need to cut the 1st one short, for some reason - you push the transport stop button (sync/start), and THEN the start/stop to begin the next song instantly. The buttons are right on top of each other - rather handy, although in most cases, you'll wait till the song is over and then the new song will load instantly.

#2 - It's a dream to have a style library so vast in one place ... OMG - you put things in folders, and they;re there for you when you need inspiration!

#3 - the song player works great, if you're not in a big rush. Your only access cursor is the data wheel, but there's an ipod-like "fast scroll" if you hold down a button. Works fine going from midi to audio in real time.

Now, the still puzzling things:

#1 - won't remember the new "default" or start up patch that I write. Also forgets expression settings and sometimes tempo settings (I like AUTO).

#2 - This MAY be a computer thing .... there are "ghost files" loaded on the usb stick that have a dot and underscore before the title, and these do not play. All the originals are in the same list, but you need to scroll past these "dead files" first. This may be a windows/Mac incompatibility ... I'm still checking on it.

#3 - I admit, I'm spoiled by the ease and quality of the Korg MP3 recorder, and I only tried this one twice, but both times - it was awful. The recording skipped and hiccuped during playback, just seconds after making the recording.

Dave, the E50 will not remember tempo settings either. Every time I turn it on, I set it to auto. After that it remembers it until you turn it off. Performances or OTS won't remember it between sessions. The E50 also will not remember Performance Hold settings once it is powered off.
DonM

Good News - as I suspected, the "ghost files" are due to a Mac/PC feud .... when I loaded the USB drive into my Windows PC, I was able to see and remove all the dead files! That cleaned up the drive a little. Now on to the next few things that need some TLC!

Dave,
I had the same ghost files but never did try to remove them. That is a good find. I have developed a "love-hate" relationship with my BK-7m but a lot of my problems are really because I have zero experience with midi and controllers so I my learning curve is straight up.

Seems like to get the module "gig ready" a lot of work must be put into the module.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Deane

Deane have you gigged with the BK7m yet? was wondering what you thougt vs the ease of an all in one unit like the Tyros4?

Donny,
I plan on taking it on it's first gig Tuesday. I have about 60 tunes setup on it and that is plenty for my gig.

The module is harder to use than my Tyros 4 but not impossible. I am accustomed to changing voices and variations about every 8 or 16 bars in a song and that is really hard to do with the module. I guess it comes down to how each player uses his equipment and if changing the procedures that have become a habit is worth the effort.

As for sound I won't know about that until I take it out to a real gig and run it through both of my Bose Compacts. In my studio it did not sound very good running only one speaker - but with two speakers it seemed to come to life.

I am still very much in the "will I keep it" mode but trying hard to give it a fair tryout.

Deane

Deane keep us posted on your experiences and Good Luck Buddy!

Deanne: I admire your diligence in getting the BK7m to work with your T4 setup,
but for me, Tyros 4 alone delivers it 'all included' in one unit, including the quick setup time.

Deane, what specific Roland sounds or styles are you wanting that's not included, or can't be closely duplicated on the Tyros 4 itself?
Because many of Roland's sounds are available as digital samples (vst, akai, etc),
you might consider using Extreme Sample Converter to convert these to Yamaha TVN/UVN format and then load & play them in your Tyros 4.
If it's specific Roland Style(s) you're wanting, these too can be exported and converted to Tyros 4 '.sty' format.
Just my idea of of a way of maintaining the ease of a 'one unit' system, including the greater ease of storing & calling up everything in Reg.

Well said, Scott...especially if you are doing more than one gig a day. Having a Tyros4, or any higher-end arranger, is far easier than setting up and tearing down separate units...plus, with modular, there's more wires, and more to go wrong.

Keep it simple, as they say.

I must commend Deane on his persistence.

Ian

Advantages to the module include weight, great drums sounds, multi-bar styles, wonderful bass lines in the styles. Again, those preferring a more "live" sound out of the box, as opposed to a CD sound, will find Roland more appealing than Yamaha.
I would prefer all-in-one unit as well, but Roland isn't making any new ones, at least right now.
DonM

I used modules in the past, specifically RA-50, RA-90, RA-800, and I must say, I am totally happy with not having to use a modular setup anymore.

Fiddly, and time consuming setup, more things to put away, and more things to go wrong...plus, access to a module's controls, even with a well set-up controller, is not nearly as convenient as having it all on the panel, with clear labeling and a nice informative screen.

With so many excellent new styles available, especially Yamaha styles that now use mega and SA/SA2 voices, the argument of "better" styles (and bass lines) holds no water anymore, in my opinion.

And with even high end arrangers weighing less than 35 lbs, with the mid-range at only 20 or so, the weight factor isn't nearly what it used to be.

So basically, it really boils down to overall sound, and what we like to hear coming out of our speakers.

I'm glad Yamaha's sound appeals to me, and I can get everything in one unit (in my case, a Tyros4), as I know I wouldn't have the patience to be jiggin' around with a module and controller, and having to deal with it's disadvantages, for a few dubious (in my opinion) advantages.

But, to each his own.

Ian

Then you won't be interested in any of this, right?

DonM

Wrong.

Quite the opposite, actually...for one thing, I'm very interested in how and why this module would be preferred over an all-in-one arranger, no matter who makes the latter.

Dave and Deane's issues would be indicative of what any user would be up against.

Ian

If you read the sales blurb, it is not designed to be used with an arranger, but for other instruments that don’t have arranger features, (Accordions, Midi Controllers etc.) which of course makes it ideal for those types of users. (Why carry an arranger keyboard around when you don’t need keys)

Bill

I think that is only half the story Bill.

Most people in here seem to be gigging musos, who already own an arranger or two!

The most common thing ever heard in a music store (except stairway to heaven and sweet child of mine) is "I wish I could just put together everything all the arranger manufacturers do to get the best of all worlds."

There are many people who take more than one arranger to a gig. they may have a Yamaha and a Korg, or a Korg and a Roland, or a Roland and a Yamaha etc etc. However, what this amazing piece of kit gives you, is the ability to take your existing arranger (let's say it's a Yamaha or a Korg) and add to it a completely different set of styles and sounds, without the weight or expense of another arranger keyboard. Having done this, you still have not lost out on anything your current arranger keyboard offers. It is still all in the instrument. You can even blend your existing instrument with the BK7m.

What you seem to have missed (and others, apologies for singling out you) is that in marketing speak, this is a borderless product. It is useable by so many people who play different products, inlcuding but not restricted to arranger players.

Anything with a midi out socket could be plugged into this device and control it.

Many of the people I have sold them to already own a Tyros 2 or 3, and have purchased this to give them something completely different. Some people think that upgrading a T2 or T3 means they are buying much of the same stuff again. If they add a BK7m, they get completely new stuff to add to their arrangements.

There are also the people who own a much older instrument, like myself, who want to just simply refresh their current instrument, like me with my Yamaha HX1. That instrument is 24 years old, but it performs very well with the BK7m. The reason I wanted one, is that I like to play organ style, but my sounds were so out of date. The BK7m has transformed it into a very useable system again.

There will even be those who currently own a T4 or are thinking of buying one. But there may be something stopping them from going ahead. perhaps they have a hankering for the 'Roland' sound. Well this allows them to go ahead and purchase the T4 or PA3X or any other keyboard for that matter, and cheaply add on the Roland.

I hear there are complaints from other users with regard to a few niggles with OTS etc. However, what is the comparison? Are we comparing this directly with a T4 at £3500. Bear in mind the BK7m is only £765. This in no way belittles the genuine complaints users have. Roland will listen for feedback, and act upon it. As I have said already, they have done so with several of the last few arranger systems they have made. New features have been added to many through operating system upgrades, often at no cost to the end-user. Users should contact Roland with their ideas or issues, so that their opinion is heard.

I hope I have managed to point out a few reasons why the BK7m is a product which shouldn't be pidgeon-holed as being for non-arranger players. It will suit them too, but that is not it's only use. The fact is, it can be used on/with a multitude of different devices. It's not for everyone, but everyone could use one if they desired.

All the best
John

Hey Deane ... I know you miss the OTS, but there are still 2 upper sounds that can be programmed. That's 1/2 at least, right? and it's not impossible to switch U1 and U2 sounds on the fly either. Just hold down the U1 button for a second and a new window pops up. It'll never replace a good all-in-one unit, but it sure has some cool stuff in it!

Hi Dave,
Yes, and in addition I now have 8 voices I selected programmed on 8 of my controller buttons and that helps tons.

I will probably use the module with my Tyros 4 and turn off the styles using just the drum parts along with my T4 sounds - that could be really cool.

Deane

If you convert Roland styles to Tyros 4 format it will never sound as good as on the Roland. Also the Tyros 4 don't have intelligent chord variations technology like the Korgs and Rolands have.

Frans, can you explain what you mean by this statement?

It is my understanding that Roland's accompaniment engine hasn't changed much from what was in the E-20, some great many years ago.

You still can't play rootless voiced chords on a Roland arranger. You can on a Korg and a Yamaha arranger.

Is Roland's Intelligent Chord Variations system their version of the beginner's method of single finger chords?

Please tell me what is so special about Roland's "Intelligent chord variations" technology, and it's advantages over Yamaha's system?

Get as technical as you like....I can take it.

Ian

The major, minor and 7th chords have different patterns on most styles.

Well, if that's all it is, I feel much better.

At least it can be disabled.

And, Roland still has no rootless chord voicing.

Ian

You really have to play a Korg to hear this. It sounds great and is one of the reasons I went to Korg. It makes a style much less boring and more authentic.

Dave,
I'am taking only the BK-7m out to it's first gig tomorrow. I'll find out real fast if it is going to be feasible to use only the module on a gig. I have thought about this and your entire lifeline is the USB connector - if it goes bad or someone hits it and breaks it you won't have any of your performances to play. I know you can fall back on the music assistant or just pick a style and play - but it still is a bit scary.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow evening of my setup.

Deane

I'd prefer that the instrument didn't do the choosing. That's why I would disable it.

I'd rather play the variations myself...more control.

Plus, I wouldn't want an accompaniment that wouldn't recognize rootless voicings.

Roland has still not caught up with the rest and implemented this very important feature....and yes, Korg and Yamaha both have it (so do Ketron).

Ian

Frans, there is a way to achieve different patterns for different chord variations within the Yamaha Style File Format. In fact, some Yamaha factory styles make use of this feature. However, if you want to make a style like this yourself, you have to use a 3rd party utility called CASM edit, because the on-board Style Creator does not give you access to all of the required parameters.

There are also undocumented parameters that control the behavior of Roland styles, such as the "Retrigger" behavior (which I consider quite important.) However so far there is only some speculation, and not a 3rd party utility to make user styles with full control of this parameter.

I have really come to appreciate the way Roland implements certain features, and their highly logical Chord Intelligence which gives a wider variety of common chords with simplified fingering. But on balance (and taking into account available third party utilities), I think Yamaha has better possibilities for creating user styles. My $.02. -Ted

... and let's not forget, Technics 'had it' as well.

+1 to what Ted S. said.

Hi FransN

Are you sure that’s all it does, as keyboards have had this for donkeys years, even the old Wersi OAS style system had this and that is as basic a style system as you can get.

When I temporally tried the Wersi OAA (Standard on new instruments) and played some T2 styles (The OAA plays them natively without conversion) these also had chord variations on most styles (If appropriate) so it’s hardly anything unique.

NOTE: for those that are not sure, we are talking about loop variations that occur with different chords (Just like real players do) not the variations changing themselves. (Usually demonstrated by showing how the intro changes depending on whether you start on a Major or Minor Chord)

BTW For Wersi owners that have not tried the OAA , the chord system has been extended from the 4 basic chord variations per style track to up to 16 chord variations per part/track (Intro, Fill Variation etc. ) so is now on a par with all the other arranger sections out there.

Bill

That's why I said you have to play a Korg to hear what I mean. It is very complex. I don't know how to explain this in English so maby an other Korg owner can explain this better.

What I do know after playing Yamaha for years that the Korg styles sound much better and more authentic to me then Yamaha ever did.

Strange they (Korg) don't sound very authentic in the demos. The instrument doesn't have any dynamics in the styles, or in the Right Hand voices either. Very one-dimensional. It's almost like they took a step backwards.

Even some long term Korg users are of the same opinion.

This is made all the more disappointing, because it is such a great looking instrument...the slinky black casing and the nicely arrayed sliders and buttons look terrific, in my opinion.

Let's hope that "magic demo" appears in the very near future.

Ian

We all know Ian even if Korg comes with the best demo ever you still won't like it. Same for the BK 7m from Roland. You only like your T4. End discussion

Not true, Frans...in fact I was hoping Korg would deliver what was initially promised.

Now, all we get is poor demos and what appears to be, excuses.

The BK-7m sounds great....actually, from the demos, it sounds much more detailed than the, so far, one-dimensional, PA3XPro.

You'd think Korg would at least want to redeem themselves from being shown up by a mid-range arranger module, but, obviously, they either think it's not important, or they can't.

I am not going to compare the PA3Xpro with a Tyros4...but I do know two pro players, who were potential PA3Xpro buyers, who bought a Tyros4 instead...I'll let them do the comparing.

Ian

I have tried every configuration that I can think of, and my decision is to return the BK7m. It's "almost" perfect for me, but the stuff that falls short, falls OFF the map. I can't spend another moment of my time on trying to make it something that it isn't. Maybe a future update will add the missing pieces, but for now - it's buh bye!
My eBay dealer was gracious enough to extend the 7 day return policy when I mentioned Don Mason's name, so life is GOOD today!
For all you that have simple needs and use a dedicated controller ... this still may be a great piece for you, but my needs are too specific, and I'm too spoiled by what I have already.
Ta-ta, my little BK friend!

Dave at least you gave it a shot....sorry it didn't work out for you.....on the other hand be happy the Summer is comin' down the shore

I AM happy, but I'm going to miss all those great, simple Roland styles at my fingertips! That was the best feature for me. As much as I love the Korg - manipulating and loading styles is very cumbersome.