you have made that sattement blindly. As far as real world sounds go any TOTL arranger can compete hread to head with any wprkstation period and in a lot of cases because of super articlulation , they will sound better even compared to the same makers workstation. The Motif Xf does not have SA and cannot compare in terms of real world sounds to the tyros.

Listen to the korg Kronos nylon string guitar i heard one played in Jamal Hartwells demo of the Kronos. It was quite poor and i was quite taken a back. I would love to own a kronos for all kinds of reasons but if you listen to http://www.youtube.com/user/GospelMusicians#p/u/1/ZPVVu0rgRKY at 4.12 you will hear an example of the guitar and hear immediately how poor it compares to say your psr 910, I know Jamal is a keyboard player and he is playing this nylon string guitar like a piano but it sounds poor compared to even the lowest PSR yamaha.

now i dont want to get away from the points you made.we can debate sound palletts all day long but with the sampling capabilities on both workstations and arrangers it just a moot point as you can put whatever sounds you like to a degree on both.

All that you said about a workstaion in terms of creating original tracks from scratch and getting away from repetitive baselines and using the best sounds is true of pretty much all the TOTL arrangers . All you have to do is use the tools on the arranger.

I dont think you have ever programmed an Arpegiator or you would know the same skill is required to program a style track. The workstation does not crreate the content all by itself !!

you said of workstations

All the complaint you constantly read about on here about what arrangers DON'T have can be done with a good workstation if you know how or have the will to learn..is it fun? YES,.....is it intimidating at first? YES....but like anything else once you get into it it will get easier and easier and more gratifying each time you play it...I also think you will be proud of yourself also once you start to be a music "CREATOR" vs a "style operator"......'

You are exactly right but i would aply those words t learning to use your arranger fully a opposed to just playing the stock sounds and styles.

And the example you posted of the Kronos is easily replicated by any arranger wiythout any difficulty at all. the same skills are applied and the same knowledge of editing sounds and laying down sequenced tracks apply.

is that fair comment Donny ?

Hi Spalding

I am not sure what sound system you are using to hear the demos, but there must be something seriously wrong with it if you cannot hear how more real the Kronos sounds are compared to an arranger. (In fact if you said this to any Korg arranger guy who knew the insides of Korgs Arrangers, he would look at you in absolute total disbelief)

The orchestral pieces you posted links to are nice, but they are not close sounding to a real orchestra, (If you don’t believe me, pop over to the Symphony Hall not far from you and have a listen to a real orchestra and you will find there is no comparison) whereas the sounds you can get from a Workstation are much closer, and if you use VSTi (Which all studios and film makers use) the sounds are as close as you can get using a keyboard.

Articulation of instruments has been around in VST for over 10 years and probably 5 years or more in workstations; however the articulations have always been triggered manually as when using a sequence your left hand is free to activate them. What Yamaha did to get round this problem was to automate it so that a lot of the work was done for you, (And you can’t argue that they have not done a cracking job) but it’s pre-programmed whereas on Workstations and VSTi allow you to set it up as you want, which makes a big difference. (Not forgetting they have way more articulations available to use)

Kronos is a brilliant concept as effectively if gives you the equivalent of a number of VSTi in a box with all the advantages this brings, the only downside being that you can only use what Korg give you.

Orchestral sounds well; if you can’t hear the difference between the ones below and an arranger, you really do have serious sound problems.

The Audition

Main Demo

Symphonic-Orchestra

VSL

Regarding the diffrences between Arrangers and Workstaions, my origional post still stands.

Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Well said, Spalding, and I agree with your points of view entirely.

Ian

Exactly Bill there is a major difference thank you for the demos.. Action Adventure & The Summoning blew me away WOW!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8pUiq1Twkg&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EGQ6puV_YA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZMYTci5Ogw&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GA9G41azCI&feature=related

and I've also heard that one of the tools Yamaha uses is the MOTIF XF to make the styles for the Tyros 4 ?

if any arranger kb can sound like this I would love to hear it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Xfm_5Wuqc&feature=related

Taiki Imaizumi, chief design engineer of the Kronos project.

There are differences, Tony, but the bottom line is that we use whatever instrument works best for our needs.

For solo (or duo) "live" play, the arranger wins out by a long way, in my opinion, unless you're one of those Karaoke type entertainers who only really need a good SMF player, and something that they can fake playing on now and again.

An arranger or a workstation will work in that situation.

For those of us who play live as a solo act, I still feel the arranger is the better deal, although, it is generally more expensive.

As far as using VST's etc., I really can't see the need with the Tyros4, as it has stunning sounds to suit every genre and every occasion, although adding sounds is still possible if one needs something really special, as evidenced by Telmo's incredible pieces.

Ever since arrangers started using sounds that were the equivalent of workstations, plus styles that had character and realism, my choice for solo work has always been the arranger, specifically Yamaha arrangers.

Ian

I forgot to add for pro use the workstations at least give you a choice 61,76,88 keys to create music which is a big deal for many pro Players glad to see KORG & KETRON have a 76 also.

Well said, Fran....we don't always agree, but we do in this regard.

And you are spot on when you say, "Pros that put their noses in the air when they see an arranger...are the "biggest losers".

I can accomplish far more with an arranger than I could with a workstation (which I've used extensively) and in less than half the time.

And in "live " play...there's nothing that will touch a TOTL/MOTL arranger for pure ease of use and great results...and all one has to do is read the posts/threads on this General Arranger Forum (it's not a Workstation forum) to see how many ways it can be used and in so many varied situations.

Long Live The Arranger!

Ian

Abacus i cant tell if you and donny are deliberately missing the point or you are both just bindsided by the words 'arranger'.

You cant post links of orchestral voices using VSTs to make a point about the quality of sounds as most workstations (including the Kronos ) are not able to use VSTs other than those connected to a computer and guess what.....an arranger can do the same !!

Donny posted up a demo of th korg Kronos being used to play a previously sequenced track using rock drums, strings , pads, a brass sound and a pizzicato sound. What element of that cant be done on ANY ,ABSOLUTELY ANY ARRANGER ?

Just before Donny posted the clip of the Kronos ironically he said in relation to the marketing of the tyros as a workstation. I hope you spot the irony :

'Exactly,... just a marketing strategy they came up with...like I said if you not willing to put in the time to learn the WS features and are satisfied with the repetitiveness sound of arranger styles no problem,...that's why we have choices...

here's a sample Orchestration WS Demo on Kronos...if you want to play in the style of Thelmo using a WS'

So here we have donny posting a demo of a workstation to illustrate what has already been done on a tyros arranger 4 by telmo !!! I hope you get the irony..... the workstation cant change key instantly like the tyros , cant change chords like the tyros (well note properly anyway), it cant substitute the style immediately with another at the same tempo pretty much instantly , it cant go back to the chorus or verse again at the whim of the player....infact it cant mimic the arranger at all ( ok it can in a fashion) !! The Tyros has nothing to fear from the Kronos. But in the clip i posted the arranger EXACTLY mimiced the workstation !! The musician built up tracks separately one track at a time , drums, strings etc just like the workstation....

Did you listen to the Kronus clip i posted demonstrating the nylon string guitar ??? What did you think of it ?

Have you undestood the point ???? or does the spirit of
Diki live on ?????