I've never created a style...

I've reviewed the material at psr tutorial, but would love to watch it being done, if possible. Are there any vids on you tube or elsewhere that cover this material?

Also, is there anything inherently different about creating a style in 7/4 than a more common time signature?

Finally, if I want the main section of the tune to be in 7/4, but the bridge to be in 4/4, is that best achieved by creating a registration for each style and toggling back and forth as desired?

Thanks guys...

Why should manufacturers produce and include instructional videos for their products like arrangers? after all don't they cost enough already?.....that would put a crimp on sales, ...people would then know how to use them and "KEEP THEM Longer" ....instead of buying the next upgraded model ...it's all sales marketing strategy...they have to keep users in the dark about not using the the so called 75% of the features in these units.

Donny,

Bill just asked a simple question, he didn't need it answering with another question, is there anything around on video how to make up a style, I don't know, and you are on the arranger thing again. I was once vaccinated with a gramophone needle, needle,needle needle. I dont believe for one minute that anything like Bill is asking for would put a cimp on sales, progress is far more complex that that, Yamaha and others KB manufactures make money beacause they know what people want and people want progress and thats what they get, surley the T4 is much better than a T1, arranger, arranger arranger!

Hi

For creating a style from scratch please read my Style Creation Course at http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style_creation_course.pdf

For different time signatures in a style please read http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/style2_9.htm and http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/stytime/index.htm

Regards
Jørgen

There you go Donny, thats how it's done, if you don't know you ask someone, you obviously didn't know and Jogen did, if I didn't know I would say I didn't.Thanks Jorgen we can all read this now. I felt like brand new when I got up this morning hence the photo change. arranger arrange arranger

Thanks Jorgen...

Hi Bill,
You also might find something usefull here:

First of all Bill asked for a Video...its fine to read instructions but to see it done is mush more efficient IMO..
Second it doesn't answer my question on WHY?....manufacturers don't make step by step beginner to advanced Instructional Videos for their Arranger keyboards customers so they may get the most out of all the valuable features deep within?

What is with the personal vendetta against Donny?

Al what all this about me and Donny are the best of buddies???

Gee, Al, from what I could tell, Tony and Donny have always been friends.

They just like to kid one another, that's all.

Ian

again Bill clearly asked for a VIDEO Tony... believe me I know the great work Jorgen has and continues to do thru the years....

Thats what this shows all about, just takes a bit of time getting there. Glad someone could help Bill. I might need it when I get the T4.

Thanks, Jorgen and Telmo:

Fantastic work. I'm looking forward to getting my feet wet creating something soon.

Just another reason why "the Zone" is such a great site.

Best regards,

Dave Rice

OK...Please lets take this a little farther.
If I want to make a complex style for a specific song...what approach is used on the T4??
Lets say something complex like abroadway musical song.
Or is that beyond the T4's capabilities?
Thanks,

Lee,

It's not at all complex, but it is time consuming, and a bit intimidating at first. Several years ago I created a song specific style file for "My Girl" using the PSR-3000. The process took about two hours before the style sounded fairly good to me. The instructions on the PSR Tutorial site, which at the time were written for the PSR-2000 guided me through the process, and those same instructions are valid for the Tyros and all PSR-series arranger keyboards.

What I accomplished in two hours, at least to me, was a lot of fun, but by no means was the style something that could be considered superb by any means. There are a few individuals out there who do this sort of thing every day, and they have created thousands upon thousands of incredible style files, many of which are archived on the PSR-Tutorial site.

Creating a style for a Broadway Musical would be no more difficult than creating any other style file, which is essentially a looping MIDI file. Each segment, Intros, variations, fills, break, endings contains: rythm1, rythm2, bass, chd1, chd2, pad, phr1 and phr2, all of which can be tweaked, tuned, volumes adjusted, or muted out. To this you can add multi-pads, which also have some pretty amazing sounds and options.

As you can see, it's a bit more complex than most folks believe, and from what I've seen over the years most people are not willing to take the time to master this aspect of arranger keyboards. In this world of instant gratification the majority of arranger keyboard owners just want to press a couple buttons and play a song. As Diki once said, it's hard to find someone that has takent he time to read the owner's manual, let alone learn the operating system.

The instructions Jorgen and others have posted are actually quite user friendly and they are to be applauded for their tireless efforts over these many years.

Cheers,

Gary

Most songs etc. are broken up into a set number of bars which get repeated at various times during the song.
If you can find a midi file of the song, load it into a sequencer and view it in notation mode, you should then be able to identify the repeats, thus allowing you to base your style on this. (Just play the notes you see on the screen into your style creator)

Most boards allow you to split a midi file into sections and select them using the normal arranger variation etc. so if it is something specific you want; this may be a better way to go. (It also has the advantage that you do not have to play the chords, thus leaving you left hand to use all the expression controls to make right hand voices sound as good as they can be.

Hope this helps

Bill

I just tried to make my very first style (and probably my last) Yes, I'd rather pay for good quality styles. Is there anybody out there that can make a killin' reggaeton style for me?

guilty as charged

If you go to Jorgen Sorrensen's site you'll find a program called MIDI-TO-STYLE that really does a pretty good job of converting midi files into style files. However, you will have to do a fair amount of tweeking and tuning after the process is completed in order to get an outstanding final product. You'll find it at MIDI2STYLE

Good Luck,

Gary

Hi Gary

Just my words ;-)

Jørgen

Personally I find the style creators on more recent PSR's to be quite easy and intuitive to use. There are tools in there that simplify style creation that previous PSR's did not have (such as copying entire parts from one section to the next). That alone is a huge time saver.

I think what deters a lot of people are several things. Recording drums (even when broken down by parts) is very difficult for many. Keeping bass lines and chord tracks within the predetermined key signature (so that chord recognition is properly applied) can also be hard for some.

Another area of difficulty for many is recording those fills.

Gary,
OK...Thanks. I know the basic precess, I was wandering how easy it is on the T4.
I hope the Tyros 4 has all the pro level editing for style creation....I know Rikki (Australia) moved from Yamaha to Korg because of the better style creation tools...I am concerned about that before I switch to Yamaha.
Anyone...please comment on that...
Thanks

Lee,

I'm not convinced that Korg's style creator program is better, just different. Both are really good, and as SqueakD stated above, the later keyboards have tools that allow you to be very creative by copying from one style to another, something that began with the PSR-2000 and was expanded from that point on.

I think the easiest way to start is to use an existing style and modify it for your particular needs, which is what I did when I purchased the PSR-3000 many years ago. I took the MORswing style, which sounded perfect for the song "Can't Smile Without You" and changed the intro using the keyboard's onboard style creator program. Essentially, the meaures were the correct length, and all I had to do was create the intro by using the whistle sound and recording it into the intro--ir worked perfectly. Since then I've modified hundreds of styles, plus created a few from scratch.

The best advice I have is if you have access to a Yamaha keyboard, PSR or Tyros series, give it a try before you buy. Same hold true for the Korg--try before you buy. I think the biggest advantage of Yamaha V/S any other manufacturer is the number of great, third-party styles available. There are thousands upon thousands available on the PSR-Tutorial site alone, and Jorgen's site has links to thousands upon thousands as well. Some of them are not very good, some are horrible, some are incredible. It took years of going through the 44,000 styles I have archived to sort out the good from the bad, then find or create the incredible. It was a lot of work, but well worth the effort.

If you want me to send some great, song specific styles to you to try out on any Yamaha keyboard, email me and I be more than happy to comply.

Good luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

Gary,
Thanks very much...I really appreciate the support and offers....
Maybe instead of going through thousands of styles, folks like your self can just share the ones they find at least useable....
Thanks,

Lee,

You have mail.

Gary

I use Yamaha's Style Assembly part of Style Creator for most of my style making...I can always find an appropriate part in another style that will work for me, plus the note limits and NTR are are already done for you, so no problem with chords.

Most of my "work styles" have as many as 7 variations, as I use the intros as new variations.

The other part of Style Creator I use a fair bit is the Groove & Dynamics, which is great for adding a swing feel to a style, or, for matching up parts from two different types of style (swing and 8 beat for example).

Using Yamaha's Style Creator as described above is pretty easy to do...I usually cover it in my follow-up clinics.

Ian

Ian,

Are your clinics like Gary's clinics.


Tony

I know this will be hard to believe, Tony, but they are even more exciting than Gary's.

Ian

I didn't know I had a clinic--but at my age I seem to spend more time in them than I wish.

Cheers,

Gary

Ha Ha...as you always say, Gary, "Gettin' old ain't for sissies."

A guy met his Doctor in the grocery store, and the Doctor said, "Hey, Joe, I haven't seen you for months."

Joe says, "Yeah, I've been sick."

Ian

Hi Gary,
sorry but I can't totally agree with you.

the style editing /creation functions to my mind are better on the korg than on my Yamaha. I've played around with both extensively. Note, I didn't say Korg styles are better, I actually prefer a lot of the Yamaha styles.

Every bit of style editing/recording can be done within the korg itself . There is event list edit for every single style track, drums, bass and the other 5 instruments. You've got your copy & paste of individual style tracks, complete style parts, you can even copy pads to create a new style. Actually you can also create a pad from a style track. No need for external programs it's all done internally. Having said that, if someone prefers to create or edit a style in a pc sequencer they can.

A korg style can be exported as a midifile to a PC sequencer. There it can be edited , saved and imported back into korg style creator as a midifile. The style when it's exported into a pc sequencer, actually looks fairly similar to how a Yamaha style looks like, when using Michael Beddersoms Style Creator software and a sequencer. They both use MARKERS to show up the Intro's fills Variations.

One big difference also, Korg styles can have genuine different time signatures for each of the style parts, they don't have to be converted using software similar to Jorgen's. Really don't know what Yammie players would do without the wonderful software that Jorgen & Michael provide for editing Yamaha styles.

As Gary says though, there are a lot more Yammie styles floating around than there are Korg. Sorting good from bad, can take time. I spent the first 12 months of owning my PSR9000 pro , downloading, auditioning & rejecting styles. haahaa

Rikki,

You can pretty much do the same things with Yamaha's Style Creator. However, I haven't worked with the Korg for several years, so things may have changed a bit. I'm to the point now where I rarely have to tune or create styles. There are so many great styles available to work with that it only takes some minor tweaking and maybe a change in the OTS settings and the styles are ready for onstage use.

Cheers,

Gary

You are correct, Rikki...the Korg offers more extensive style editing/creation functions.

I know I am very grateful to Jorgen's and Michael for their software, as it enables me to do basically what you can do on the Korg instrument itself.

I should add, since I basically use Style Assembly for 99% of my style making, I'm pretty content with the Yamaha Style Creator.

Ian

Hi Gary,
the Korg style creator has. My prior korg to my PA800 was the i2, it was pretty basic.

You can do things like cutting a section out of a style track

You can record a just say a 2 bar drum pattern , change the bars to 8, you've automatically got an 8 bar pattern. Further more there's a drum remapper function where I could record a single track, copy to the other 3 variations, , set the mapping to a different setting for each, and each of the variations sounds different. The higher the number, the more dynamic the pattern sounds.

Or just say you have an onboard 8 bar pattern, you don't like the 4 first 4 bars, you just cut them out. You end up with a 4 bar pattern.
I found this function handy for some of the BIAB styles I did . I recorded 32 bars of BIAB & cut out sections that were repetative.

All the onboard styles are fully editable in an event list editor. Not so in my PSR1500, but maybe things have changed in the newer models.

There's probably stuff I still haven't discovered over the last 3 years that can be done as far as editing goes, I waste an awful lot of time on it, but I luv it . haahaa

Hi Ian,
for style assembly, I'd have to agree. If you're copying a style track, then you're copying a style track whether it be korg or Yamaha.
I don't think these 2 guys really get enough recognition for the great work they've done for Yammie users.
Anyone who's into editing , has probably got one or more of their programs. I know I do.

Hi



Thanks, Rikki.

Best wishes
Jørgen

Hi Jorgen,
credit, where credit's due.

Jorgen,
Thanks very much for all your work and super programs....
That said.....IF your programs did not exist...What would Yamaha users do when they wanted some advanced editing etc???

That...in a nutshell has been my complaint all the time...Yamaha PSR division does not care about us needing more PRO features.
It is not just in the styles dept. it is other areas of the instruments too (like MIDI implementation).

The Yamaha arrangers a super...but they stop short of having a model with many features some of us want/need.

I can't think of any editing/features on Korg that they don't have that I want (including the new TC helicon and chord seq.)...but, limited styles available and the difference in sounds are the reason I hesitate on the PA3.

My wish is that Yamaha would finally have a arranger with all the features MANY of us ask for and are never given because of the PSR divisions management direction or lack of.

Yes, I know they sell a lot of them....but in todays technology, there is no reason they can not have a PRO model, so to speak.

I would guess MANY Yamaha users have and use Jorgen's programs??? I wander if they would switch brands if they did not exist???

Without the tireless work of Jorgen, Michael Bedesem, and a handful of other creative and resourceful individuals many of us would still be living in the Dark Ages of arranger keyboards. Others that deserve recognition include: Heiko Plate, Joe Maas, Peter Wierzba, Kim Winther and some lesser known folks, all of which have contributed immensely to the advancement of arranger keyboard players.

Thanks to all,

Gary

Hi Gary



Do you think we can send a bill to Yamaha ?

Jørgen

Just my 2 cents....

I have both brands and for my own experience I can say the following:
You CAN make a Factory Quality style with Korg, using mainly the keyboard, and yes, I recommend to use ANY decent PC sequencer program, I used the Cakewalk/Sonar, but you can use any other.
No one mention the fact that in the melodic Intros/endings you can have one in a Mayor tonality and another in a minor tonality and both can be very different, that you can do on the Korg, not in the Yamaha.
I have to say, that Jørgen has provide us with more useful tools than Yamaha, for that, Thank you again Jørgen.

The Yamaha style designers use a "special" software (I am pretty sure is Mac based), and the "basic" style tools that the keyboards have, are "almost" a marketing thing, just to say that they have it, not fully function-able, there is not chord table to assign the ""virtual" variations. Example, let's say I made a variation 1, well, to enable the keyboard to respond to more complex chords, I must make more "virtual" variations # 1, like the virtual tracks in a digital recorder, so you can have several takes on track 1.....the same applies in the style making, using the chord table assingment you can make the variation 1 virtual # 2 or 3, to respond to a suspended or diminish, etc.....chords.
that is what my friend Juan MIguel and I used to make those Mexican styles for Korg.

I do like all arrangers, some have "stronger" areas as well weak ones in one brand vs the other.
When I want to make a style for my own use, I make it in the Korg, and after I am done there, I use the Style Works Universal XT to converted to Yamaha, and even there, I need to make more editing to make it "decent".
All depends how picky you are and how you want it done, and most of all, how much time you want to dedicate to do it, and I almost forgot, you need lots of patience.

Hi mdorantes,
sorry to butt in, can't help myself.
Apart from havin Major & Minor intro's, they can also be different lengths. Intro 1 Major can be 8 bars wheras Intro 1 Min. might only be 4, don't think that can be done on my PSR either.

It's a pity Yamaha styles can't be made the same way as the korg. I actually convert my psr1500 styles across to korg from a midifile of the style.
On the whole they look very similar to each other in a sequencer. I just change the markers to suit Korg. Move the tracks from the Minor intro's & endings to the end of the file. Swap midi channels 9 & 11 to suit Korg. Now with the XG Drums in PA3X, I won't even have to remap the drums. (Slightly simplistic veiw of how it works.)

Be great if you could just do the opposite above, and somehow add the casm for psr ie be able to do you editing in the pc instead of the yammie, I assume.



[quote=mdorantes]Just my 2 cents....