I recently sold my PA800 (along with a few extra pieces of gear) in anticipation of something new in the near future. Since the near future isn't near enough - I needed something for the interim, so I went back to the psr s-910. here's a short summary of the changes that have taken place in my rig, my performance and my attitude since then. (it's been 3 weeks or so)

First:
The audio power of the Korg allowed me to use it as a stand alone speaker system at many places, but the Yamaha is much, much less powerful, so there are fewer places that I can use it as the only sound source ... even small cocktail parties are a struggle. I miss the powerful monitoring in my face.

Second: of course, the voice processor is no contest, so I had to upgrade to an outboard piece (TC voicelive touch) In some ways, this has become a surprise - almost an upgrade from the onboard unit in the PA800 - more flexibility, fun with the looper and a smoother sound. Better treatment of the single harmony above the lead.

I'v posted a few pix to show the layout I'm using. I sometimes need my laptop for DJ trax, so I have a custom rack that hold both the TC and the Laptop. For most of my summer work, I don't need the computer, so I use a simple mounting stick that fellow member Ron Glass made me years ago.

I'll post more later, but for now - the Yamaha has given me an interim tool till something comes out that I want, and I enjoy using the bread and butter, generic styles for a host of tunes that were not as readily accessible on the Korg.

Stay tuned ...

Hi Dave,

Interesting setup and some interesting choices. I'm curious about the Bose Compact. Aren't you supposed to position the unit slightly behind you to not only project to the crowd but also to assist with monitoring? Why rely on the keyboard only monitoring system when you can leverage the Bose?

Also, how are you using those pedals? I'm trying to figure out from the photos what is controlling what, but I can't connect the dots.

Thanks and regards,

Interesting setup, Dave. Too many pedals for this old man, and I would have placed the Bose L1 Compact to the rear and off to one side for better monitoring. I've used it when placed in front and the problem I encountered was that I wasn't hearing what the audience was hearing. It was much lounder to them than I was hearing, thus creating a problem for both myself and the audience when it came to volume levels.

Good Luck,

Gary

My guess..Dave is trying to reduce feedback from the mic and harmonizer..by placing the Bose towards the front of the keyboard , away from the mic..(and guitar)

OK, two good responses - I'll address both.
First, This is a new setup, and I am not ruling out any options just yet, so I have added a few extra footswitches for a while. The right foot has sustain and page advance (for reading the odd text file. With no laptop, I lost my ability to call up a lyric every so often.)The left foot is the stock pedal that TC sells (actually, it's a digitech, but works the same and gives me more foot room) that pedal is (from left to right)Harm, favorites and loop.

In my old rig, I only used the 2 pedals on the right, and one was sustain, the other harmony. Lately, I've been getting a numbness in my left leg from leaning on it so much of the night, so I figured that if I share the weight load (and it's alot! lol) I might be able to get rid of the "sleeping thigh" syndrome. So far, the extra buttons are not important, and it's likely that by next week, I will be back to only the 2. I'll have to separate them, and alternate left and right positions for leg comfort. Easy fix.

Second - as to monitoring from behind the Bose - It's almost the same thing as being in front of it, and it feeds into the mic less, so the harmonies don't get confused as often. The only drawback I have with the Bose is it's uncanny ability to be everywhere at the same time ... and sometimes that makes the harmonizer work overtime. Since my priority is always the vocals - the harmony has to be pristine.
To be very honest - I notice almost no difference where I put the Bose ... it always sounds fantastic. My summer jobs are very low key, and low volume is paramount, so as long as I can hear the mix, I'm good to go. really, most of the time all I need is a little more bass and some extra coverage up top ... the Compact does that in it's sleep.

With all that said - there are a few things I still wish I could change:

1. I will always hate the key feel and key size of the Yamahas, but I'm dealing with it for now, because of the ease of use and the simple, effective OS that is very intuitive on the fly. I always liked that about Yamaha.
2. This new rig is lighter and smaller - 2 good things.
3. I can now monitor (albeit, more quietly) my guitar, voice, trax and live play all through the KB speakers. The guitar plugs right into the TC unit, as well as an iPod (for backup). The s910 responds very well to the midi commands from the Parker MidiFly, and I can control a tone and the chord changes with ease ... same as on the PA800. I expected as much - this Parker is a wonderful instrument, and the MIDI implementation in keyboards has been very good for a long time now.
4. Being able to rearrange, edit, load etc styles are a plus. The Korg architecture is so much deeper and it's harder to facilitate quick changes, like adding or moving one style to a new location.
5. I really have to "punch up"
the drums and EQ the high end to get them to sizzle like they should, but all the mixing options are there and easy to get to, so it's really a mute point - just one more step out of the box. The Korg drum sound spoiled me. I've said this before, but it's bears repeating: Yamaha drums are Ringo Starr, and Korg is Steve Gadd. Both awesome, but Ringo is easier to dance to.
6. I wish I could leave the USB drive in the kb during transport, but it sticks out from the back. I bought a PNY drive that's less than a 1/2 inch extrusion, but i still feel shaking about packing this thing with it still inside. The Korg has a nice, safe hideaway for it.
7. My concentration lately is to provide the right mix at the right time and sell it as well as I can. I've been doing alot more guitar these days, because any time you add a real instrument to a midi rig - it adds realism to the entire mix. Even a live shaker or tambourine can spice up a mix by a lot! The s910 will do this for a while ... but I am ready to audition the new PA3x as soon as one drops in the store nearby. Who knows, maybe by then - I'll have become more comfortable with this rig? It sound very good, and each week I make improvements that please me more and more. I wish the made a high end keyboard that wasn't the size of a football field and had speakers. Tyros4S perhaps? (kidding ... don't start speculating!) LOL
8. Do I miss the Korg? Yes ... and no. I miss the puchy drums and the on board harmonizer, the loud, powerful speakers and the terrific dual MPS/SMF player. (Yamaha has two separate players for each file format, and only the SMF has the "next" feature ... if you select an MP3 while one is playing, it's switched immediately. I miss the option to preselect to avoid lag time. I don't miss the extra weight (partly, the cases fault, but that phat sound comes at a heavier price) I miss the placement of the USB drive (small potatoes in this challenge), and I miss the big, stereo, monitor sound that was always right in my face. After laborday, my outside work slows down and school tasks pickup, so if I can stay happy for about 6 more weeks, I'm doing pretty well.

Thanx for reading - always glad to share a secret that works or a gear suggestion with my pals here at the zone.

All in all - I'm happy to have a decent rig to tide me over and when the time comes to make another move, I'll tell you all about it. Maybe this can help someone else make their own decisions about gear.

P.S. I forgot to mention that the little travel shave kit stuck in the middle of the X stand houses all the AC supplies and cables that come out pre-measured to fit right into the proper spot. It keeps everything neat and reduces the chance of forgetting something, or a plug falling out ... I hate clutter on the floor. It also make setup time minimal!
For those that don't know me - my mic stand is also mounted on the end of the top tube, as well as the mount for the TC voicelive touch. I carry ONE stand. This setup, as you see it - all comes in carry bags, gets brought in in 2 trips with no dolly, and all the bags stuff into the kb case for easy, neat storage during the job. They are all soft cases, and many places have little or no room for extra baggage, so this is a joy to work with. The case can slide under a banquet table of go in most closets with ease.

UD,

That KB is not going to sound the same in Mono, when you play a hammond sound hows it going to spin left to right.

That setup is OK for domestic home use but is it any good in a big room with sound absorbing sufaces.

I don't think that you can play a KB in mono it will sound dead.

Why did Yamaha put two speakers inside the KB , why not one right in the middle.

Tony

Dave, how about that infamously well known "effects phase cancellation" phenomonem that occurs when Yamaha stereo sampled voices are mixed down to one mono Bose Compact unit, of which I've found sounds thin, harsh and unsatisfactory. Imho, going out stereo to two discrete Bose units is pretty much neccesary to preserve the full and rich sound, especially with Yamaha arrnagers.

Also, because I realize how much you enjoy playing LH bass lines, while trriggering auto accomp chord recognition with your RH, I'm curious how you're going tolerate not being able to do this on the S910, or on anyother Yamaha arranger model for that matters.

Scott

UD,

I have just noticed you must have to stand up to play the KB there is too much stuff on the floor to get your legs under the KB. I am too old to be standing of a long time playing, was this just the setup for the photo shoot.

Tony

Im in my phone, so I'll keep this short.
1. The placement of the Bose moves all the time, depending in the room.
2. Mono is not a problem when the system us tweaked to overcome the Yamaha shortcomings.
3. I don't need RH accpmt when playing live bass ... that is only important when the KB links the harmony to the chord section. The outboard harmony unit makes it unnecessary for the arranger to be on, when I play lb bass.

I hate typing on this phone!!! Grrr.
More later

Tony, I always stand for performances. Better visual, better vocal control.

Yes, you're right, and no amount of tweaking overcomes this phenomenon, in my opinion, having used Bose systems extensively for a whole season.

One will work, but, not satisfactorily enough for my ears, and believe me, I wished it would have done the job.

Then again, some people are more easily satisfied...great sound to me is paramount.

Rotary speaker effects, guitar chorusing, delays, are all done in stereo on the S910 (and Tyros) so in effect (no pun intended) you aren't really getting the most out of the instrument.

I wound up using two Bose L1 systems, which were, to say the least, incredible for my needs, which was filling a theatre with sound, and the stereo sweet spot was huge to put it mildly.

No, in my opinion, using one Bose (on a Yamaha arranger) is like listening with one ear half-covered; the difference to me, was that dramatic.

I sold my two Bose, at the end of the season, got nearly all of my money back, and now, while taking a sabbatical from gigging, I use a pair of old (but great) Yamaha MS-60S powered monitors (in stereo, of course).

Ian

Not a problem for the vast majority of us Scott. There are some folks that resorted to using a pair of L1 Compacts, but most of us continue to use a single unit for ALL of our work, including outdoor jobs. I've used a pair of L1 compacts and the sound is somewhat fuller, but as UD stated, with a bit of tuning they're nearly identical. I sincerely believe the audience(s) would not know the difference between a single L1 Compact and a pair, especially when well tuned. And, as you know I've never been happy with Yamaha's stock piano--that's why I created my own piano voices using the keyboard's onboard Sound Creator program and modified a GM grand piano voice.

Tony, Dave always stands while performing, has an outstanding voice and really interacts well with his audiences. He's constantly scanning the audience (probably looking for a cute redhead) while performing, but keep in mind he's a relatively young guy and can still stand for four hours with no ill effects. At our age(s) standing during a performance is out of the question. I compensate for this by using a Quick-Lock stool that has a foot-rest and back-rest that puts me at near-standing height while comfortably playing.

Cheers,

Gary

Dave, the Yamaha will display text files, so you don't need the computer for that.
DonM

Dave, is that your Parker Fly turned backwards? Looks like it, but I can't see the headstock. If it is, what model is it?

R.

I too...stand while playing...always have going back to my accordion days , more than 50 years ago...

Standing ....still does not bother me..and yes I use pedals too, making me stand on my 68 year old left leg all night long primarily..

I can remember Dave sitting during the 28 years I have known him...but in recent years..he is manning up, standing..

Don, yup - that's why I tried using a pedal for the page turner. I probably only have 8-10 charts that I read, and after 3 or 4 times ... I have them memorized anyway, so it's not a real issue.

Yes, Russ - it's a Parker Midifly. I put it in the stand backwards to mute the strings from ringing from sympathetic vibrations. It's a great guitar in all way I depend on it:
1. acoustically - the piezo pickups in the bridge do a great acoustic sound for strumming or fingerpicking
2. the magnetic 5 way strat style pickups cover all my jazz-surf needs
3. the midi output sends directly to the Yamaha engine so I can blend a third sound with the other two. You should hear "Norwegian Wood" with the acoustic sound blended with a sitar, or "Highway 20 ride" using a choir pad under the acoustic. Sometimes, I use a tremelo electric with my position 4 electric for the surf sounds I use for Ventures styles .... it's a very versatile axe!

Yeah, I remember working rooms that were set up more as piano bars, and the layout was more conducive for a seated performance, but I hated it. Standing allows me to interject more physical energy into my performance, as well as improve the visual both for me, and my audience. Once the dance floor fills up - a performer can get lost in the crowd - I try to avoid that!

With regard to the whole Bose and stereo thing:

I remember buying 2 compacts at first to try it out, but I found that the Bose was so efficient in covering a wide area, that it was actually bleeding into each others field (L&R), producing more fallout than a typical Yamaha mono summing issue. I still believe that most rooms do not have an ideal situation for stereo to be as effective as the total coverage that the Bose provides in mono. The sweet spot is mostly enjoyed by the performer, and the area right in front - many of my arena's need to cover around corners, and into other spaces to my left and right - stereo would be wasted, and thin sounding in these other spots.

On the other side of the coin - I do appreciate a good stereo chorus or phat brass patch panned for effect, and when the situation warrants it, I have my 2 QSC K12's ready for the task. It's just that for most of my work, it's overkill, and having a more compact setup that covers better is a better choice for me.

Gary,

I just lean on my Zimmer frame, if Dave carries on standing up he will be doing the same,
cute redheads or not I am only thinking of Dave's welfare.

Tony

Hey Tony, lots of guys older than you and I play gold 2-3 days a week, and that involves standing in the heat most of the time! At least I am in the cool climate controlled environment! LOL As long as I shift my weight between sides, I think I'll be alright for the next, say .... 20 or 30 years that I intend to be entertaining!

I suppose if someone is playing and space is limited, it would be good to stand. Most arranger players I know sit when they play, including me.

Martin Harris, and Peter Baartmans usually sit during demos, and when you are constantly using pedals (in my case, volume and sustain) it is not very pleasant when standing...plus, if you aren't using the right technique, you can get carpel tunnel pretty easy.

Of course, if you're singing, standing allegedly helps, but that doesn't seem to bother Billy Joel, Elton John, Burton Cummings, Mike MacDonald (Doobie Brothers) and Stevie Wonder, to name only a few...they rely heavily on their voice as well as their playing, and they seem to prefer sitting down.

They seem to have no problems keeping the audience's attention.

Regarding Bose...

I wanted to get by with one Bose L1...but, after spending a lot of time trying to get it to sound right (and getting nowhere), I went with two, and I was glad I did.

Using two also corrected another drawback with the Bose, which is weak mid-range...two towers combined makes up for it remarkably well.

If you can live with playing an instrument in mono, that's meant to be played in stereo, by all means use one Bose...it will save you considerable money and set up time...I guess I'm a perfectionist at heart, and great sound is very important to me, especially since my music is all instrumental, so I had to go with two, and couldn't see doing it any other way.

I'm certainly not going to try and change someone's mind who is perfectly happy with a Yamaha arranger in mono, but it was worth it to me...plus, you only have to buy a proper PA system once.

Keyboards are a different matter.

Ian

Man, I'll never understand how you guys are able to trigger foot pedals (especially piano sustain) while standing.
Dave and Fran: Perhaps you guys don't use the sustain pedal much?
As I play the piano voice much of the time, it requires triggering the sustain pedal on/off throughout a song,
so by the end of a set, my back aches terribly as it essentially requires supporting my entire body weight on 'one' (the left) leg alone.
Certainly not a naturally balanced human standing position.
Perhaps for a bird like my pet African Grey Parrot, Alexander:




but not for people.


To accommodate the audience viewing benefit of raising the keyboard position height,
I utilize a cheap lightweight portable high stool which fully & evenly supports my upper body weight,
freeing both feet to conveniently trigger any of the foot pedals and sustain pedal at will, and often concurrently.
Other people's experiences, thoughts, and suggestions on this subject appreciated as well.

Alexander my parrot on one leg, and in Left and Right Stereo too:
- in living stereo -

If standing playing the keyboard/piano was more natural and more comfortable than sitting, then why do they bother to sell benches?

It is very hard on the back and leg muscles (unless you rarely use the sustain and/or volume pedals) and I feel any tiny benefit of increased audience exposure, isn't worth the extra strain on the body.

As I said in my post above...most keyboard players, who actually play using both hands and using pedals, generally sit...even if they are singers.

Scott, Alexander has no problems singing whilst standing on one leg for long periods of time....we humans aren't so lucky.

Ian

While "most keyboard players, who actually play using both hands and using pedals, generally sit" count me amongst the "less" who actually play using both hands and using pedals, who generally stands ... HOWEVER, I do use a seat similar to this, except mine has the round seat ...
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/drums-per...446327000000000
... which I set at a height that I am almost standing ...

That's a great looking seat Tony...comfortable I bet.

I played in a band for about 5 months where I stood when playing...it was not a great experience.

I don't plan on doing it again...too hard on back and legs, and I was in my 30's then.

Ian

Tony you sat down for your photo.

Tony

Scott-that looks like an African Grey. I have one named Sophie, and my oldest son taught it to say "hide the drugs" every time someone rings the doorbell.

R.

It was easier to get everything into the picture at that distance ...

Russ

Cute, how old is your Sophie, and how long have you had her? Perhaps you can post a pic of her here.

Alexander's 27 now and I've had him since I was in my early teens raising him from a baby. He's a Congo African Grey which have a lifespan of between 50-70 years. He has a sizable vocabulary, but thankfully never picked up any bad language. He especially enjoys dancing and whistling along, and 'in time' to the music when I play my Tyros 4 and sing. He remains a true 'lifelong' companion pet for sure.

Here the portable backpack I use to take Alexander around in for day trip traveling:

I couldn't find one of those portable benches suitable enough, so I bought a drum throne (Gibraltar) very similar to Tony Mads'. I do this to stay at a similar visual level with my wife who sings out front and is standing and moving about.It's not the most comfortable seat in the world, but I couldn't hop around like Long John Silver on one leg all night.

Scott-Sophie is 7. She says EVERYTHING! A massive vocabulary. Some things sound exactly like me...others like whomever she picked the phrase or word from. She's an African Grey with a lifespan of 70 years, I was told when i got her. She calls our Pyraneese, Gracie. Dog goes right to her.

I'll take a photo soon and send it to you. UD saw Sophie when he stayed with me several years ago.


R.

UD ... Dare I say this but I truly believe you will "Love" the Pa3x with the PaAS speaker!! I know you will like the 'New" electric piano .. Vintage Wurly is terrific.

Hey Dave, hard to tell in the picture... is that a Fender?
Curious...how much guitar playing is part of your performance?

When I'm playing with my brother, we hook up both the keyboard and his guitar through his Fender guitar combo amp. Sounds pretty good after finding the right settings in both the amp, and keyboard EQ setting

Scott & Russ, talk about a commitment...your bird pals will outlast most marriages.

Am I standing or sitting?



Cheers,

Gary

Larry, it's a Parker Midifly. Strat style pickups (s-s-h) with a 5 pos switch and a piezo under each string saddle - it sounds amazing as an acoustic, and electric or when midi'd to a third tone from the kb. I love the versatility!
I probably play guitar about 1/4 to 1/3 of the night - depending on the crowd. when I get into "storyteller" mode, it's more. When there are lots of ballroom dancers, much less, but I'm alwasy ready!

Wow - I could never sit that low. When I do choose to kick back, I have a nice padded stool that allows me to "almost" stand, but it hurts my butt to be on the edge all night - I'm better with the shifting of weight between feet.

Scott, I'm on the sustain constantly, and mostly have an EP sound in my RH. I'd be very uncomfortable without a sustain. My priorities have always been as follows:

1. vocal
2. bass
3. drums
4. chords (piano-ish)

Maybe I am more forgiving of the Yamaha mono tone because:
a. I do modify it to punch up the freq that are lacking or weak, and
b. the piano is 4th on my list of important sounds. I could use any old chord sound and still maintain my signature sound as long as the vocals are strong, and the bass and drums are good. I played for so many years with a Rhodes and a Moog bass - I got used to being a small trio type ensemble. As the sounds got better, I started to use more of them, but I am still a Rhodes,bass,drums trio with a vocal harmony group in front. That's the way I like it, and thank God it still sells!

Gary,

Neither, your fast asleep.

Nah you are sitting Gary, I can see the legs of the seat you can't fool an old fool Gary.

Anyway I am more interested in the speakers, how big was the room you were playing in, here in the UK we like lots of power, had I been playing I have two 400 SR and I can turn them down on the back. I also notice the walls a smooth boarding, had this been curtains your sound system would have died a 1000 deaths pointing back to the wall. Also the speakers have no mid range, how does that work. Appears to me that you are playing background music perhaps your just about keeping pace with the background talking of your audience. You need to blast them away Gary get some power up there, make then listen.

BTW is that sign with your name on it got a light inside it.

Thanks for the photo.

Cheers Tony

Scott,

Where is his airbag?

Tony,

The room measured about 60 X 100 feet, with the exception of the dancefloor, which was in the middle of the room, much of the floor was carpeted. The ceiling is sound absorbing and about 12 feet high, and the room had several curtained windows. I was in the process of setting up when that photo was taken, the sound system was never turned up to beyond the 11 O'clock position, the dancefloor stayed full, and I had people in the connecting bar room dancing. It has been MY experience that the only sound systems that tend to suffer are conventional--not stacked arrays such as the Bose.

Gary

Tony,
I'm starting to "get" your sense of humor, and I don't think you really believe either of the above statements, do you? With so many fans of teh Bose technology, you can believe that there is a full range of frequency reproduction when used properly, and set up for the venue. They are an amazing to0l, and for the record - his speaker was facing out towards the audience.

As a kid, the need to "blast them away" might have been a more common approach, but I have come to realize, and I truly believe that MOST of my comrades play too loud. Maybe they are all loosing their hearing from sitting in front of conventional speakers that force high end, damaging frequencies out of small horns, in order to project to the back of the room, maybe they just like the thump of bass that makes your stomach rumble. I have come to appreciate a more balanced, non-abrasive tone and the fact that I have been making my living for over 35 years with this approach tells me that others appreciate it as well.

Sure, there will always be the occasion to really pump it up, but that fades quickly with youth - many people come to my shows with the intention of dancing, listening and talking to one another - I provide an atmosphere for all three, and the Bose is an integral part of that success.

These rants over stereo vs. mono and phase canceling and such are all a very distant second to the art of entertainment. When a performer puts on a good show, with class and humility the crowd will respond in kind. With a full dance floor, the only "right" decision is what to play next. No one ever requested me to "play more midrange, please" LOL

Tony, you're a good guy, and a funny one too ... keep your sense of humor - it makes you who you are! I don't really think the UK is all that different from the US, except that you guys (mates) can't speak English!

You are sitting...or your pants are too short

Tony, I can't quite agree that the Bose have "no mid-range", but I will concede that the mid-range is very weak.

No amount of tweaking overcomes this on a single Bose system, and the only way around happened when I added the second Bose system; the increase in mid-range was a happy by-product, as my original intent was to try and stop the phase-cancellation that occurred when I used a single system.

Some people are able to live with the very obvious lack of mid-range in a single Bose, very contentedly it seems, but, I like my sound to have decent mid range and one Bose system, was very unsatisfactory, both in the aforementioned weak mids, and, of course, the stereo reproduction.

To each his own, I say...this was always a bone of contention on SZ (both with the mids problem and the stereo issue).

I solved my dissatisfaction by using two systems, solving the weak mids issue and the stereo one as well; others are quite content to use one system and be happy with it's performance, however it is perceived to their ears. It must work well enough, as they continue to use it.

I can't see this whole issue resolved, and quite frankly, I really don't give a hoot...my prime concern is making my performance sound at it's very best, not trying to convince other people about where I believe a certain speaker system configuration falls short.

I am just happy I noticed what was lacking, and also quite pleased when I found the solution, albeit a pricey one.

If I were in your place, I'd stick with the two 400 SR in stereo...you'll get a much more robust sound, and, no problems with phase cancellation.

Ian

PS...you will notice that 99% of Bose ads show a single vocalist/guitar player (or a single piano player) with no backup accompaniment system...also, when used in a band, you will notice each member has their own system (in mono)...that way the system doesn't have to handle the entire frequency range, the lack of mids is not as important, and the stereo phase cancellation problem is a non-issue.

Ian,

Is this another way of saying there is no middle range, shall I get the freq data sheet and see?

Hi Guys.

Been on the Bose site, cannot find any techinical data for freq response, perhaps they don't want you to know so you can't compare their kit with others. What good is that, we need hard evidence it must be somewhere. Yours ears may be gone, mine are! It might sound good to you but that is no recommendation.

Tony

Tony, there is a mid-range, but it is weak.

However, when used as intended, with a vocalist/guitar player, the lack of mids isn't much of an issue, as vocals and guitars are strong in the mid-range and make up for it.

That's why the ads show the system being used by a single performer. When used in a group situation, you will see that each band member has his (or her) own Bose system. That clearly indicates to me that one is not meant as an overall "band" PA system.

An arranger needs a speaker system with far broader frequency response because it is reproducing many frequencies (it is an entire "band") all at once, as opposed to just a certain range.

As I said earlier, Tony, there are some who are very content with a single system it as it sounds...I was not...it was one-dimensional, and weak in the mid-range, and therefore not acceptable.

I found that two did the job, and overcame the above issues, but again, they are expensive.

Ian

Found it.

http://pro.bose.com/pdf/pro/tech_data/L1/td_l1_compact.pdf

Now we can compare?

I agree with all of that Ian. The Yamaha KA20 was one of the best speakers around, this kit was used for home and gigging but much to heavy for
good old boys to lug around, unless you have a trolley.

http://www.freewebs.com/hxelectone/buy.htm

Scott, Alexander and Sophie look almost identical...they're the same breed of bird. As a female, Sophie has a lot of red in her tail.


Larry, I have three Parker guitars: a Classic for "high end" jobs (read that-little chance of damage), a Nite-Fly (that's for outside-hazardous duty-drunks, weather, etc....costs about 1/3 of the Classic...about $1,000.00)) and a new Parker acoustic hi-bred. Has piezos and a magnetic pick-up with a blend, separate outs, etc.

If I had to choose one guitar out of my collection of over 300 pieces, including L-5's, 355's, etc. I'd choose the Parker Fly Classic. They're that good!


Russ

Scott, I got Sophie when she was about one year old. I have also had a Conyer for about 15 years (they're loud as hell!). I checked out Sophie at the pet store, but didn't buy that day. When I returned a week later, she had been purchased. On a trip two weeks later, I was told that it "wasn't working out" with the new owners.

The family had several young children and had purchased a puppy after they got Sophie, which was really hyper.

That made the bird really nervous and she started to pull out her feathers.

I consulted the vet for the other bird (Ralph), bought her, and two weeks later, she was a member of the family...healthy as can be and always entertaining.

We have a Koi pond and Sophie likes to stand at the edge of the water and yell out, " Come here, little fishies" (LOL).

You're right-owning an African Grey is a lifetime commitment. They are extremely smart and very shy. They are the "talkingest" of the parrots.

Great companions!

We only take her out for vet appointments/check-ups.

Russ

Hi Scott,
luv the backpack. Never seen one before.
I'm a bit of a bird nut , my little cockateil (Charlie), 8 years old, travels with us , except I only have a cage. When we have stay in a motel overnight, I have to wrap it up in a blanket & sneek him in. haahaa Fortunately he stays quiet, when he's covered. Rest of the time he chatters away. Learnt the hard way to keep him away from the keyboards, he chewed the rubber buttons on my psr1500, when I wasn't looking.

I play the Yamaha stereo piano voice 85+% of the time utilizing the sustain pedal constantly all that time too,
but I suppose, unlike you, I'm not willing to tolerate standing because it requires balancing all my weight on my left leg the entire time (hardly a natural position), and without any opportunity to switch back and forth between the 2 feet, because I use my right foot exclusively for triggering the sustain pedal or to trigger the fill to self assigned pedal, and leaving my left foot to trigger the vocal harmony on/off assigned pedal.

Even if one is actually able to balance and maintain their entire weight on their left foot all evening (as Fran C. does),
I can't, perhaps because I've never had ballet lessons

But even if I could, this would eliminate any possibility of the left foot available to activate another pedal, while at the same time needing to activate the sustain pedal with the right foot.

For these reasons, I sit on and or support my upper body weight on the edge of a high stool freeing 'both' feet to activate the sustain, and other pedals at will. More important is the health benefit of a 'pain free' fully supported & ergonomically balanced upper body, yet still affording the keyboard positioned higher than the traditional seated kb position for improved audience visibility. I recommend this healthier compromise keyboard height position approach. JMO.

Cap Russ & Rikki:
Great to learn both of you are parrot enthusiast owners too.
I realize this may be OT, but it would be really cool if you guys would post a pic of your birdies (Sophie & Charlie) too.

In an attempt to relate this to music, Alexander not only talks well and whistles when I play my Tyros 4, but he also is an accomplished dancer as well, rhythmically bobbing 'in time' 'to my Tyros 4 playing and singing. He's even got those syncopated rhythmic moves down.


Yes, the African Grey Parrot, because they are so highly intelligent (intelligence level of a 5 year old child),
are extremely sensitive as well,
and because of this, prone to pulling out their feathers if distressed.
Luckily for me, Alexander has never plucked his feathers in all of his 27 young years, and reamins well adjusted and happy.


Here's a link to the Pak O' Bird carrier I got for Alexander. He really looks forward to his outings and readily hops in anticipating another fun adventure riding around in it.
Rikki, Just in case you're interested, here's a link to the Celltei Website that produces the Pak O' Bird carrier. I recommend the 'small' size especially designed for your smaller Cockatiel Charlie.

Dave,

Not so certain you are right on this one "English" started in England, if you were right Dave it would be called Yankee . I am not really funny Dave, this is what we are all like in the UK.

David,

I will never forget without sacrifice of your countrymen in 1944 I wouldn’t be speaking English right now, my hearing might be gone but my memory is 20/20.

Kind Regards Anthony (Full English Breakfast Name)

These rants over stereo vs. mono and phase canceling and such are all a very distant second to the art of entertainment. When a performer puts on a good show, with class and humility the crowd will respond in kind. With a full dance floor, the only "right" decision is what to play next. No one ever requested me to "play more midrange, please" LOL

[/quote]

well put Tio David:)

well put Tio David:) [/quote]


How would they, they wouldn't know what mid range was , but you would, Mont you could even play midi files and pretend you are really playing the KB, how would they know that also. Mont, it’s what we perceive as sounding good, after all we are supposed to be the experts and getting the best sounds out of what we have ie. KB. It’s no big deal Mont, I just tried to say what it’s like in the UK, no one in the UK would ever get on a stage in the UK with a KB without a set of speakers i.e. left and right hand, be it and NHS home or whatever, guitar player yes one speaker, but not a KB, hell there are two outlets on the back of any KB L/R and on the Tyros 4 there’s about 10 outlets, I am off out now Mont to buy another 8 more speakers and a shed load of cables - see you Mont.

Regards

Tony

Scott, I taught Sophie to whistle "Satin Doll"...at least the first part.

She get's up about 7:30 AM and starts her routine. The phone rings (her) and she answers it. Then, the coffee pot starts to "gurgle" (her). Then, she whistles "Satin Doll". That is followed by calling the dog and much more.

A real "ham bone", that one!


I'll send you a photo privately.


Russ

How would they, they wouldn't know what mid range was , but you would, Mont you could even play midi files and pretend you are really playing the KB, how would they know that also. Mont, it’s what we perceive as sounding good, after all we are supposed to be the experts and getting the best sounds out of what we have ie. KB. It’s no big deal Mont, I just tried to say what it’s like in the UK, no one in the UK would ever get on a stage in the UK with a KB without a set of speakers i.e. left and right hand, be it and NHS home or whatever, guitar player yes one speaker, but not a KB, hell there are two outlets on the back of any KB L/R and on the Tyros 4 there’s about 10 outlets, I am off out now Mont to buy another 8 more speakers and a shed load of cables - see you Mont.

Regards

Tony [/quote]

Hi Tony- don't get me wrong- I believe you should get the best gear you can afford, and yes stereo sounds better than mono. I just saw a fellow do wonders with a Yamaha E423, and a simple speaker. He has a fantatic voice, very good keyboard skills, and good people/entertaining skills too. Would a Tyros 4 and 2 Bose L1 make him sound better? Of course. But put a keyboardist with a low skill level behind the most expensive rig and the results aren't pleasing.

Montunoman says:

"But put a keyboardist with a low skill level behind the most expensive rig and the results aren't pleasing."


That sounds like me Mont and I don't get any complaints.

Tony

So, if you have an average player (left hand chords, single finger melody) on a Yamaha E-213, and you compare that performance with the same player on a T4 the results are not better, and more pleasing??
I think he/she will sound a hell of a lot better on the T4.

As to stereo vs mono...I would NEVER use Mono on a arranger keyboard, or even a synth. I tried the Kurzweil K2600 once mono...sounded like crap...then to quality stereo monitors...WOW..

Well Leeboy thats you,Ian and me all the rest are happy to play in Mono, I could turn off one of my hearing aids and see what it sounds like rather that buy a Bose L1, it would be much cheaper.

Cheers Leeboy.

In the case of the Tyros4 and other Yamaha arrangers (S910/S900/3000) it isn't the fault of the mono Bose system...the latter does exactly as advertised, and is an excellent system for the single performer.

The fault (if you could call it that) lies with Yamaha's way of stereo sampling...using L/Mono out doesn't cut it for stereo sounds like piano, electric piano, or effects like delay and rotary speaker. If I plug my Tyros4's L/Mono into one of my Yamaha MS60S powered speakers, the sound is thin and one dimensional to my ears, no different than one Bose L1....with two speakers, of either brand, in stereo, it is a world of difference.

A friend of mine has a Kurz K2600 and it is always amped in stereo...he got the same results as you when he played it in mono...he's using a Traynor K4. http://www.traynoramps.com/products.asp?type=1&cat=57&id=340

We must realize, that Yamaha arrangers are primarily for home use, and 99% of users will plug their keyboard into their home stereo.

BTW a synth would have to go a long way in bettering those Kurzweil Strings.

Ian

Hi Leeboy,

Of course the results would be more pleasing. I'm just saying if you put a great player on a modest instrument, he or she will sound good. Put a poor player behind a fantastic instrument and miricles aren't going to happen.


I recently meet a very nice older man who owns a PSR S 910. He lacks some very basic musicianship. He wants to up grade to a Tyros 4. I think his money would be better spent on lessons, perhaps some siminars or what not. I do not know him well enough to tell him this and of course it's his money. Perhaps growing as a musician is not as important to him as owning the TOTL gear. Whatever makes you happy...

This, of course, is the backbone of marketing by manufacturers. Sell the customer on the fact that if he or she buys the latest and greatest it will somehow elevate their playing skills several levels. And, as you say, there are those who HAVE to have the latest thing.

Amateur, Pro, or Semi-Pro, you'll sound better with a two speaker/stereo setup on a Yamaha arranger. I really don't know how anyone could argue that one output is better than two for a keyboard that was originally sampled in stereo, although I'm not sure anyone here is actually arguing that point. They are happy with the single output, for whatever reason, so be it.

So Tony, I'm with ya mate...you, Scott, Ian, Lee, and me, that's enough for a basketball team. We can call ourselves the Arranger DualOuts, and our games will be broadcast in Stereo!

LOL! Perhaps you could have dual nets to shoot at.

Well,
For one Why would anyone go Mono? We left that behind many decades ago....There is no PAN position, no stereo strings, no leslie effect, and many instruments will not sound good etc. And the 'Presence' is not there, and no seperation of instruments, drums etc. The reason stereo was invented was to give a feel of being in front of a live band, orchestra ect.

And, I will tell you that in many cases a better instument WILL make you a better player...Why? because when you have better sounds you are more inspired, practice more and then get better skills as you go...personal experience for over 40 years!

Does a better instrument INSTANTLY make your skills better...of course not.

Hells Bells Dave,

This thread has gone around the houses to get to here, parrots day out at the seaside, mono -v- stereo, the study of sound frequencies, stereo parrots, standing or sitting at the KB, falling asleep at the KB, one legged ballerinas, Montunoman promotes the sales of multiple speakers on the Tyros 4, and finally the establishment and institution of the English language, but in the final analysis Dave I think the majority have come to the final conclusion, if it looks like a stereo KB, if it’s got Left & Right speaker sockets like a stereo KB, then it must be stereo KB and it was meant to be played in stereo like a stereo KB, if you want to drive only one side of your KB that’s OK.

Bose make some hellish good gear and no doubt the L1 Compact is good, it certainly cost enough, top dollar, its less for you to lug around , your audiences are not discerning enough to ever know the difference between mono and stereo, so you carry on , in the UK we have a saying “whatever floats your boat”.

Dave, I don’t think I will ever be able to hear the Bose L1 Compact it’s not something we would ever buy in the UK, we just zap them with a left and then a right.

This has been one of the most entertaining and informative threads for a while, thanks for starting it UD.



Regards

Tony

Interesting discussion...

As a user of a single L1, with my T2 I hear a different sort of feedback from my clients.

First let me say that several times this year I've run everything through a stereo system with two 15's up on poles and yes, it was heaven. To be swaddled in such a soft, cozy bed of musical delight is awesome. How much or how far away that effect reached my audience, is up for debate.

I survey my clients several times a year on my services, including the quality of how I sound. I hear two things consistently.

1) The Bose L1 system sounds incredible...

2) I've got the cleanest, most powerful sound of anyone who comes around...

I know for a fact there are other acts in my area who use stereo systems, so I'm curious why that doesn't elevate them above my basic sound quality? It could be a number of things including how the system is EQ-ed, how the instruments, especially keyboards are EQ-ed, the quality of the stereo system itself, playing ability, etc. I'm also told I'm by far the loudest performer with my volume, but haven't been told to turn it down in a long time.

I miss the gorgeous stereo panning when I use the L1, but to me, its a different kind of good. When I asked the clients directly would they prefer I bring in a stereo PA, they usually say something like "Whatever it is your doing now sounds awesome, why change?" If I could get the same quality out of a pair of 10's I might consider going back, but I've never heard 10's that I liked very much.

I'm with everyone who feels stereo is the way to go, but I maintain a mono system properly set up, with instruments properly set up, can sound very, very good. I know there's a big difference to my ears, but for the most part, the difference may stop there.

Now Bill,

We didn't cover sound cleanliness, that’s my fault, but Bill you did come in after last orders. That’s a UK saying when the bar has stopped serving drinks!

Bill could you tell us what cleanest is in sound terms, I am so stupid and deaf I wouldn’t have a clue.

I think it is all subjective and the others who come around, bet they just can't sing good.


Regards

Tony

It can happen, Bill...using a stereo system (two Bose L1's) elevated my sound above the others who used mono systems. When I did my summer long theater stint using a lowly S910 and a pair of Bose L1's, I was consistently told how much better the sound was compared to the other two keyboardists who used one of the house systems, which was in mono.

I suspect it also helped that I was using Bose L1's, as the stereo sweet spot was huge...I checked it out myself using a recording I had done, and it didn't seem to matter where I stood, I could distinguish stereo separation, although, admittedly, much stronger from middle aisle to the front row.

I missed the gorgeous stereo sound so much when I tried using one Bose L1, I wouldn't even think of not using two. My sound is the most important aspect of my performance, along with good material and an equally well prepared (and well rehearsed) set...I don't skimp on anything any more as I've learned over my many years of playing, that "the devil is in the details".

As has been said earlier, it depends on if you can live with the mono sound and still feel content with what you produce.

Several here seem quite happy to use mono Bose, several others wouldn't dream of it, and this topic always ends this way...it's been discussed many times here on SZ and other forums as well.

I will say, that on the Yamaha forums, the vast majority use stereo systems, including the professional entertainers, so the Yamaha-esque phase cancellation in mono is well known and in most cases, avoided at all costs, so it seems it is obviously something important to consider if one wants optimum sound from one's stereo arranger keyboard.



I agree Tony...arrangers (especially Yamaha)they are meant to be played in stereo, but, in some cases, the audiences "are not discerning enough to ever know the difference between mono and stereo".

In my case, in a relatively more formal theatre setting, the audience did know the difference, and so did I.

But as you say in the UK...“whatever floats your boat”.

If it works for his/her needs, and the mono sound isn't much of an issue, a player using one Bose will save a considerable amount of money (great for the more frugal amongst us) and also nearly halve the set up time, usually important when doing several gigs a day.

In my case, I had lots of time to set up, I couldn't live with the mono sound, so it was with two L1's I went a-playing...and, I am very glad I did....it made the whole experience so much better for all concerned.


Ian

(Stupid and deaf is a little harsh, don't you think? :))

When I say cleanest sound, the clients tell me that even at the volume levels I'm playing at, my vocals are sharp and easily understood, my kb also comes through with a clarity that, I'm told others don't have. By gain staging the Bose L1 properly (Thanks, Gary) its almost impossible to overdrive to the point of distortion.

A theory I have is that other acts are pushing their smaller PA's too hard to reach the volume the clients want. The other thing is I've a background in theater and took a few years of voice and diction, so I think my enunciation may be part of what they hear.

Its mostly attention to detail. I'm not doing anything others aren't...

Yes Ian, I should add that to my knowledge no other single act in this area uses a double L1 system. There's a popular duo that does, I'm told.

I'm not surprised, Bill, as many of the acts in my area don't even use one Bose L1 because two are way too expensive, and one is very unflattering (in my opinion, and in the opinion of quite a few more I might add).

Bill, it's fine by me that you find the single Bose L1 is suitable for your needs...unfortunately, many of us Yamaha players who like to hear, and have the audience hear, the arranger it as it should sound, in, as you say, "glorious stereo" don't agree.


I don't know about you Bill, but I'll take "glorious stereo" anytime over one-dimensional mono, and if I can't manage two Bose L1's to rent/buy for the season, I'll happily work with the next best thing, which is a Yamaha Stagepas 500 stereo PA system (or it's equivalent in another brand).

I know you are fussy on your sound and your presentation, and you probably put on a very good performance, but, I honestly can't imagine working that hard to perfect a show, and then sending it out in un-glorious mono to the listening audience.

If you were using another brand of arranger, which does not have phase cancellation problems (like a Korg PA or Roland G-70) I would say using an L1 would probably do the job admirably (although still a little weak in mids) but I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree about using a single L1 with a Yamaha arranger.

As I said earlier, I'm not about to try and get someone to switch or change what they are happy with using, but since I am connected with Yamaha (in a very small way) I feel it's important to make those considering a purchase of a single Bose L1 to use with their Yamaha arranger, aware of any potential problems or unsatisfactory performance.

I'm sure if you were in my position, you would do the same.

Ian

Dave,

I wish to sincerely apologize for hijacking your thread. I wasn't going to post anything beyond my first entry, but for some strange reason I allowed Ian's stereo V/S mono rant to get under my wrinkled skin.

Think I'll get a Margaretta and go to bed,

Gary

Oh my goodness Gary...your post is the length of a novel, all just to tell me you disagree.

I really don't care if you agree...the single Bose sounds awful on a stereo arranger...I'm glad it's working for you...it was totally unacceptable to me, and I've been in the business at least as long or longer than you.

I do know I don't recommend the single Bose L1 to any Yamaha users, here or on the other forums.

I know you will steadfastly defend what you bought, but I have had the luxury of using two, and the difference is more than exceptional. If my comments about the single Bose L1 upset you, I understand why, because they are pricey for the average amount of performance (IMO), and I'd not like to be told what I bought wasn't up to snuff....but, it's all right Gary, you're happy with it, and so are several others, and if that works for you, so be it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree Gary...this is going nowhere and we are still in the middle, and I can tell you are getting a bit angry (red text)...let's you and I just agree that some like it, and some do not.

Use what makes you happy...I will too, and it won't be a single Bose L1 for sure.

Have a nice big drink and go to bed...relax...tomorrow's another day.

Ian

Gary,

The red text hurt my eyes and the reason I can tell the different between mono and stereo I got fitted with a set of Siemens hearing aid, I got bad hearing damage with big guns early on in life.


http://hearing.siemens.com/uk/_microsites/product-finder/productfinder.jsp


Regards

Tony

Nigel, is there a way the quote box can be widened a bit? It just cuts off enough type at the end of the lines to make it awkward to read, and moving the scroll bar back and forth at the bottom is a nuisance. Cheers.

I second that request

Hi All,

Not saying that you all have hearing problems but just try this

http://www.kindhearing.co.uk/hoertest_uk.html

I also have tinnitus , some days it’s bad and sometimes it just goes away, high pitched screaming in your head, when I put my hearing aids in it goes away most the time, they self cancel tinnitus. A lot of people are walking about and have High Blood pressure and don't know about it, its called the silent killer, same with deafness, it is not just turning up the volume to correct it so you can hear it’s a loss of a range of frequencies, some of you will not know you have damage. I have said it so many times if you are working in a noisy environment you will have or are more susceptible to hearing damage and since you all work with KB sat on top of the PA or speakers, you are at risk.
I can now hear car keys ringing, my ankles cracking when I drive the car, water in the wash hand basin, flushing toilet, Ts & Ps are now clear all the high frequency sounds that I have lost between 19 and 60, I am not too proud to wear a set of hearing aids, anyway you can’t tell I have them in they are that small.
Word of warning they cost the same as the Tyors 4, if I take them out and start playing the T4 I might as well sell it, it sounds crap and so does the Ketron and the Korg. I have tried to explain to you about hearing loss, I am not going to mention it again but if you all think your hearing is perfect and you can judge mono or stereo sounds at your age then think again. If you are playing KB to old people they have the same problem, if they are telling you sound good, then believe them it’s OK by me, when did you last play in front of a bunch 20 year olds. Not their kind of music in your library.
Do the tests and please it’s not definitive!

Tony

Tony, what I find so amusing is the ads for Bose.

Nearly all the setups show a single singer/guitarist (which doesn't need stereo, or full freq range, for that matter) or a young lady vocalist playing an electric piano.

When used in a group setting, Bose recommends using a single L1 for each performer, which not only sounds better, but gives each performer a position in the sound field.

An arranger is literally a full band...BIG difference!

I was lucky with my hearing...I was wearing ear protection very early on, as our drummer back then worked for an audiologist and we had custom molded ear protectors at a very good price.

I'm not quite sure I would like someone with moderate to severe hearing damage recommending a sound system to me...I think I'd want someone with very good hearing and experience.

The argument over stereo vs mono will always rage as long as we each seem to hear differently, and work with different size budgets, or setup/tear-down time restraints or different size stages.

I spend so much time making my arranger sound as good as possible, and I'm certainly not going to run in mono, when it is very well known that it causes phase cancellations and my instrument isn't sounding as it it was meant to sound...so, stereo is the only way for me.

I always make sure that my clients know the pitfalls of using mono systems, and try to prevent them from getting any mis-information before they spend their hard earned money on a keyboard amplification system.

This thread will definitely show both sides of the mono/stereo issue, as well as the other results from using one or two Bose systems...and there's nothing wrong with that at all...the well informed buyer is going to be a much happier owner.

Ian

Ian,

I agree with everything you have said, at the end of the day if these guys are happy with one sound stick well thats OK I have no problem, I'm not listening to them, you won't find a Bose L1 on a stage in the UK, its just not cricket old bean, there are certain levels we will not go below and two speakers is that level.

Ian, when you did the test was your hearing perfect? What, What
What!!!


Tony

While stereo is always nice I don't think anyone other than the performer and a small percentage of the audience in close proximity to the stereo field really get the benefit of it. In a large room those further back from the front probably don't notice much difference. Especially with the Bose L1 which make a point of being a non-directional sound source. I have heard acts using a single L1 system and the sound has still been great. While using 2 L1s would be nice I don't think it's critical to getting a great sound.

My rock cover band used 2 L1 systems for a while. While they were great for the vocal spread in the room even 2 didn't provide enough midrange to reinforce a live amplified rock band. We ended up returning to a conventional PA system. But I think either 1 or 2 L1 towers work perfectly for an OMB situation. After all the Bose L1 was never created to be a PA system but may performers found it could do a great job in that capacity. Originally the L1 was called PAS ( Personal Audio System ) designed for each performer to have their own. Sure stereo may help overcome problems in mono summing .... but then the problem isn't the sound system but the keyboard engine sound design itself. Spending an extra $2000 seems like a non cost effective way of dealing with a keyboard design issue.

Now I think we are all done with L1 discussion on this thread. Start a new one if anyone wants to pursue it any further.

Synthzone Member Review of a "Single" Bose L1 Setup back in 2008

I believe "wrong" got it "right" in what appears to have been an unbiased evaluation.

Thanks Tony...I also don't have a problem with those using a single stick...if it works that's great.

I just want to be sure anyone buying a Yamaha arranger is going to get a system that will bring out the best in the instrument, and so far, the evidence all points to a stereo system...no phase cancellation, great (and true) sounding effects, and a good full range sound.

I had to have my hearing tested less than two years ago, after my surgery, to make sure there had been no side effects from the drugs...I have lost a very, very small bit in my left ear, so small I wouldn't have known about but for the test.

Just pure good fortune that my band-mate's boss insisted on us all wearing ear protection, and practically gave us the ear protectors...to this day, all of of us except one, have great hearing, and if they dug up old Enver, I'm sure his eardrums would still be in great shape.

Many of the other players back when we were doing the club circuit, especially those who were doing R&B and Rock have severe hearing problems today, some of which are so bad, that hearing aids just will not help. Tinnitus is very common.

I'm glad to hear (pun intended) that you were able to get the proper help with your hearing issues.

Ian