Hi Scott

Groove prices vary from $4958 - $8230 depending on version (The conversion from Euros to dollars is done after VAT is removed, using a standard currency convertor program and then adding 8% sales tax which seems to be typical in the US)

Hi Spalding

Hardly a fair comparison, if the Lionstracs was perfect and the Motif was way down the list, the Motif would swamp all the sales of the Lionstracs, due to the fact that Lionstracs does not have the financial resources to manufacture in the same numbers as Yamaha.

The same goes for R & D, Yamaha can spend millions on developing products, (Always beneficial when developing products) whereas Lionstracs entire yearly budget is probably less than what Yamaha spend on bottled water in a week.

If you look at all professionally produced music and production, they always use both hardware and software instruments (Not forgetting live performers as well) to get the best sounds and performance they can. (Not one or the other)

General

The open keyboard is designed to give users pro studio facilities (To which they can add what they want) in a single box that a mere mortal can use, at a fraction of the price, (Very few can afford to buy a top pro production studio) and would also be perfectly acceptable in the lounge.

No open keyboard apart from Wersi (Who have been making home organs since the late 60s) were designed for home users, but for users that wanted to let their experimental juices run wild.

The Wersi on the other hand was designed for home use, but not by the beginner or button pushing brigade, (Press a button and everything is done for you) as it was assumed that due to the price, users who purchased them could already play and wanted to do their own thing. (Unfortunately they did not move with the times, (As modern day society wants everything done for them with minimal effort) and is why Wersi is no more and unlikely ever to return in the future)

Music Store (One of the biggest music retailers in Europe) however is focussed on what users want, (So that they can make shed loads of money from them) hence all Wersi instruments are now having software updates introduced to bring them up to the normal OOTB experience. (The Wing was always designed for this, (Hence the reason I am NOT interested in it) so should be interesting to see how it goes once its mainstream)

I am also keeping my fingers crossed that OAS 7 instruments don’t go completely down the “Press a button and everything is done for” route, so that I can continue to do what I want and not what the manufactures says I can do. (Hence closed keyboards are of no use to me)

Finally

Remember all modern keyboards are software based; they just don’t as yet allow you to use 3rd party software. (Hence you are dictated to what you can do by the manufacture)

Bill

Bill,

I think we have been down this route before, you have explained in concise terms why we should all be a bit
cautious of buying from manufaturers who design on the fly,
R&D and field testing via the customer. I never was able to put it is such a way, you have covered every deatail.

Regards

Tony

i hear you Bill but the comparrison has some validity because all product sales are driven by demand not the financial resources to manufacture. If i show a bank or any investor a full order book i will get the money to manufacture. So far the demand for 'open products' is miniscule compared to those products that are not as 'open ' (because in reality there is no totally closed or totally open single instrument ).

Yamahas R&D is spent on making products that their reserach tells them the market WANTS AND THEY CAN MAKE A PROFIT FROM. Thats why they make products that are so popular with real world musicians and not the miniscule segment of musicians that want to spend 90 % of their time instaling software, updateing software, managing integration conflicts.... for example having to remove harddrive 'A' because the 'open keyboard 'did not happen to like it !!!


openlab products have had lots of big ticket promotion and big endorsers such as Teddy Riley , Timberland , Morris Hayes, Keith Emerson etc and they went bankrupt a few years ago only to be rescued by another company and not surprisingly ALL of these endorsing artists without exception use other manaufacturers instruments in their music production from korg to roland to yamaha.

That tells me that as far as the future is concerned 'open v closed instrument' is a redundant argument. The facts are that even when people could choose to exclusively use an open product (even the product they endorse) they still choose to use other manufactures products to make their music for whatever reason.

The truth is if you were to listen to a product demo of any open keyboard to any closed one you would not be able to tell if the sounds coming from the instrument were the sounds that came from the factory produced unit or not . You would not be able to tell if the musician produced the music on the instrument the sound came from or from an external sequencer or a software sequencer added to the instruiment subsequent to manufacture.

What you would be able to judge is the quality of what you heard and thats down to the musician and not the isntrument. That has always been the case, that will always be the case .

As for the Mediastaion, i have said plenty about the endless updates that never quite transform the instrument into anything other than an incomplete beta testing product.

The unavoidable complexity (whether real or percieved) that comes with open keyboards means that it will only ever appeal to a small market and that is why its total sales will always compare less favouribly to any closed keyboard.

Hi Spaldings,

Spot on, thought there was only me out here thinking this way, now I know there is at least two.


Tony

Hi Spalding

All valid points, however the Wing will put this to the test, as like most all of the other arrangers out there it cannot use third party software or sounds, (The exception is the ability to directly play Yamaha styles) and is designed specifically to work OOTB without requiring the user to do anything. (It is also priced within the normal arranger price line)

Will it outsell the larger instruments because of this, (Like other arrangers do) or will users still go for the more flexible larger instruments. (The next 12 – 18 months should be interesting)

Bill

This is better Scott a demo of the MS X76 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ooKPAGhLeg&feature=related