Anyone have any songs that you have wanted to play on your arranger keyboard but you gave up on because of limitations of the instrument? Every once in awhile I run across a tune with specific breaks, styles, meter or tempo changes that I feel I can't pull off. In these cases I just try a completely different style from the original (make my own unique arrangement) or as a last resort use a SMF. I run into this problem mostly with Latin music (not having the correct style)

How about you?

There's a ton...

Lots of the stuff from the 80's that used a lot of "lines" instead of chords are rough for any arranger.

Many of the popular bands of the day, Kansas, ELP, Queen, Rush, etc. don't translate well...

There are no songs that you cant pull off on an arranger ! What you are saying is that you are not comfortable with programming your keyboard to achieve whatever outcome you desire. Thats a statement of your skill level and has nothing to do with the limitations of an arranger or any keyboard or instrument generally. If you can program your instrument the arranger is literally limitless.

Hi Spalding

If arrangers could do as you say them pros, studios and Film producers would use them instead of Workstations and/or computer based systems, however they don’t, because an arranger cant. (Arrangers are great as a scratchpad though)

Hardware:
Take a Korg Kronos and add a backing creator hardware box (Loop station for instance) which comes to about the same price as a T4/PA3x, and once set up (You need to put the work in) there is not a hardware arranger on the planet that can even get onto the 1st rung of the ladder in comparison.

Computer Base:
Overclocked CPU, 16 GB Ram, SSD and HDD drives (Raid) and a Top Notch sound card
Quality Midi Controller keyboard
Komplete 8 VST
Albeton Live sequencer software

The above is also about the same price as a T4/PA3x, and would (Providing you put the work in) totally blitz the T4/PA3x in every department except Easy Play.

Now as a lot of songs/productions use this type of equipment as standard, (Plus many more hardware/software combinations) you can see that an arranger has not got a cat in hells chance (No matter how much you program) of playing them.

I have been using Computer based software since the 90s, (I ditched Arrangers/organs in the very early 90s due to their inherent limitations) so I am familiar with what’s available and what it can do, I am also familiar with arrangers and what they can do, so I am talking from experience, I also don’t have any brand loyalty. (If it does what I want at the right price, then I will use it)

Remember, as I have said many times, the only reason I have the Wersi Abacus is because I can use my software on-board, and have it in the lounge without any complaints or boxes and cables all over the place. (No hardware arranger comes close)

Bill

Bill,

As much as I respect your opinions, I must disagree with you on this. If you ditched arrangers in the early 90s, you obviously, IMHO, left arrangers while they were still in their technological infancy.

If your theory is valid about this issue, how about providing us with some examples you've created using your system, and to make all things equal, create the same songs that Telmo recently created on his T4 and posted here. Then we can make an educated comparison of the end result using both systems.

I sincerely believe the only reason that film studio producers do not use them is because most are still living in the dark ages (1990s) of musical production. There have been lots of advances in technology of arranger keyboards during the past two decades, but unfortunately, only a handful of individuals have taken the time to explore those advancements and use them to their fullest potential. Keep in mind that it wasn't too many years ago when film production studios used live orchestras and 1-inch tape recorders. The transition to computers and VSTs for this industry was painfully long.

I'm looking forward to hearing your posted examples,

Gary

If I wanted to program or sequence my performances, I would've bought a different keyboard. (Probably, I'd kept my Korg Triton Prox88), but I don't.

I can't even get comfortable with MIDI files for pete's sake, let alone try to program all the parts to Karn Evil 9 or something.

Yes, I agree...you can sequence anything. But I don't do that. I like to play and perform. Its not cost effective for me to go that route.

Or put another way, programming is not one of my skills, lol...

Hey Bill
You sound like me, "can't get comfortable with a midi file" sequence although its seems increasingly thats what everyone is doing. I used to play every part on two keyboards, bas pedals and drum machine but now use an arranger, some trade off but I still feel like I'm in control.
I've spent much time customizing my styles so they don't sound so canned.
Just nice to hear there's someone who feels like I do about preforming

BTW what arranger do you use?

Bill in NJ

Well said, Spalding.

I haven't run into a tune I can't accomplish on an arranger. At one time arrangers wouldn't play On Bass (or bass inversions if you like) and multiple time signatures weren't possible.

Nowadays, with software by Michael Bedesem and Jørgen Sørensen (to name but two) and advances in arranger design, those issues are taken care of admirably.

As far as pros using them?

They are used in Nashville for songwriting; Martina McBride, Sting, David Paich(Toto), David Bryant(Bon Jovi), and several other prominent musicians use them in their studios.

Many OMB performers use arrangers, including several on this very forum.

I have done several projects with my arrangers, and these were done far quicker than with a workstation (well, the arranger is a workstation too) and the results were totally acceptable by my clients.

Arrangers have come a long way since the bingity boingity cheap sounding home organs, Casios and PSS instruments, and are only limited by a player's skill and imagination.

Ian

I use Tyros 2, with a Tyros 1 as a backup...

Hi Gary

Telmo is a good case in point, in that a lot of the sounds he uses are converted from these larger libraries, however due to the T4s limited processing power, small memory and very few hardware controls, (It doesn’t even have a touch screen) a lot of the original is lost.

That it sounds great is undeniable, and as I have mentioned in other threads he really is a top notch arranger/player, and once familiar with the way produces and systems work could easily move into a production environment.

However consider this:

Telmo makes the T4 sound great (Although remember a fair amount of the stuff he uses it is from 3rd party’s not Yamaha or on-board) however if he did the same using the full works, you would realise how limiting the T4 (And all other arrangers) are.

If you want demos, just go to any of the VST manufactures sites and listen to the demos and read (And watch) the tutorials to see what I mean.

As to early arrangers being limited, I agree, however I have tried and had demoed (By Professional sales staff and artists) all the latest arrangers, and I can assure you that they do not compare to Workstations or Computer based systems. (They were never designed for that role)

For the target market (Home Uses, OMB) an arranger is a brilliant piece of equipment which will suit a lot of people, but take it out of its intended environment and it becomes like a fish out of water.

BTW VST stands for Virtual Studio Technology and studios and production engineers have been using them since the late 90s, (The VST standard came out in the Mid 90s) along with 24 bit sound systems. (The days of CD quality 16 bit sounds have long gone, which is why you don’t hear the best sound if you listen to a normal CD)

Bill

Hi Ian

When was the last time you saw an arranger on stage in a band etc. then tell me when you last saw a Workstation on stage in a band?

The truth is outside of Home Users and OMB; the extra facilities an arranger gives (Styles etc.) are not needed in live or studio work. (Except as a scratchpad as I previously mentioned)

You wouldn’t use a family sedan to go off road or up a mountain, (As it would be completely out of its depth) you would use a vehicle designed for the job.

Look at the arranger as a family sedan and the off road vehicle as a workstation, both do similar jobs, but both have features added for their specific jobs. (It’s up to the user to decide which one they want, many have both)

Bill

I see more arrangers in use in a band than ever before...just because you don't see them on TV doesn't mean that they aren't being used professionally.

There are several bands in my area alone using PSR/Tyros/Korg/Roland arrangers, either as stand alone instruments and/or part of the group sound by using style accompaniments.

Today's arrangers are far beyond the old style instruments...most have enough workstation features to act as one, and still retain all the advantages of the arranger (quick record, styles, pads etc.)

I've worked many years in a studio, and our production time was greatly reduced by using an arranger (and yes, we used styles).

At one time arrangers and workstations were job specific, but, in my professional experience, the line has blurred considerably and today's arrangers are as powerful (in some cases more powerful) than workstations.

I personally know several pros using styles in the studio as well as the ones I mentioned in my previous post...and, I'm sure my experience is not isolated.

No, I wouldn't use a family sedan for "off-road", but, I don't go off-road...most people who own a SUV never ever take them off road, although I suppose the potential is there. More "bragging rights" than actual usage, in my opinion.

No, I'd rather use an arranger, (in my case a Tyros4 with 1 gig expansion pack) which is far faster and far easier to use than a workstation.

Ian

You can use an Arranger in anything related to music, take for example the KORG PA series, not only do you have a synthesizer but also a sampler, so what is an arranger? a synth that you can also play multi-timbral sounds, and the Tyros 4 has 2 gigs sample playback, you can do a lot of things with that alone.

HI Ian

Its good to hear about bands using arrangers, but in Europe there are thousands of bands using keyboards and the vast majority are workstations or synths.

The same applies to YouTube; you see thousands of bands using Workstations/Synths, but very few using arrangers.

Your last 2 paragraphs points out the differences brilliantly, for Home Users, OMB and as a scratch pad for getting a good backing track going in a studio, then the arranger blows Workstations/Computer based systems out the water.

Once that work is done however, you want top notch sounds, and the ability to fine edit and modify it to get something really unique, and just like a Sedan is no good off road, an arranger is not suitable to get a really top notch unique sound production. (It was never designed for that purpose)

In the end it all comes down to what suits you, in your case the T4 does everything you need, (Just as other arrangers do it for their users) but for me, I enjoy the software route, as I find the limitations (For me) of an arranger make them not suitable. (There is no right or wrong with either, as they were both designed for different jobs)

Bill

I don't agree, Bill...as far as "top notch sounds', the Yamaha Tyros4 has no equal as far as I'm concerned.

It's the perfect keyboard for my needs, encompassing exceptional one man band performance, super accurate sounds for studio work as well as styles and pads, and ideal "band" sounds if I ever need them.

Bill, above all, I'm a "live" player, not a dabbler, software collector, or much of an extreme tweaker either...the instrument has to perform many functions and roles exceptionally well, which the Yamaha Tyros4 does in spades. My way of expression is actually playing, not having round and round discussions on the latest VST or recording software...I leave that to those who want and need that sort of thing.

If you need VST's and other additions to do your work, that's okay...I do not; I'm very content with what the arranger gives me.

Ian

You are pretty well right on the mark, Gary. Since I've been demoing arrangers, especially the higher end PSR and Tyros series, we have outfitted several professional studios with arranger instruments.

On my last tour I ran into one of the first studio owners we sold a Tyros2 to, and they are upgrading to a Tyros4 after hearing it at one of my demos.

Dan, the owner, said that they have done several albums using the Tyros2 alone, and the reviews were very positive.

I also did some recording for a songwriter who lives on mainland Nova Scotia, and we used a PSR-S910 that I had midi'd to a Yamaha KX8 controller for the full piano parts...the recordings were mastered on a Yamaha digital recorder/mixer, and then went directly to Nashville, the instruments on the tunes being the S-910, his guitar (and his vocals-sometimes utilizing the S910's harmonizer), and some harmonica work by a friend of his.

I know you have experienced the same reaction from people as I have when they are totally amazed at the sound, backgrounds (styles) and overall musicality of the arranger keyboard...I always used to say, "This isn't your grandma's Casio!"

Sounds in arrangers easily rival high end workstations, and there are more people catching on to the value of an arranger, both "live" and in the studio.

Ian

PS...Gary, do you still have a website?

I'm a BIG FAN of arrangers for film score roughs, and for an occasional low end project (usually, a non-profit).

In fact, I have had people, including my friend and superior studio musician Rory ask me why not use a rough (he was listening to a rough for a film for a car manufacturer).

He was right...in that case, I could have pulled it off.


But, my full scale scores are almost always done with mostly live players...rarely even use work stations. Samples are sometimes used when the budget is tight.

I pride myself in the quality of our scores, and have access to enough high end business to make that happen.

Arrangers are GREAT for getting the ball rolling, though.


Russ
(disclaimer: This is the way I do it, and it is not my intent to say that this is the only way to produce film scores or to knock arrangers, those who play them or the projects done on them)


SO THERE! (LOL)!

Well said Russ...there really is no "right" or "wrong" way...the right way is the one that works best for you.

Hiring competent studio musicians is cool, if you have the budget...not everyone wants to go through that expense and risk.

In my case, arrangers not only get the ball rolling...they also keep it rolling.

Ian

Ian,

I dumped the website a couple years ago because it didn't produce a single job during the entire time I had it up, and it took more time and effort to keep everything updated than I had to devote to it. From the hits it had, most were from other musicians who wanted to find out where I was performing--not new or current clients. Hell, I'm trying to slow down and semi-retire, but no one will let me. I guess that's a good thing.

Bill,

In my part of the world, Mid-Atlantic USA, there are loads of 3 to 6-piece bands that have an arranger keyboard player in the group. In fact, I don't think I've seen more than one or two bands that use Synths during the past decade. I guess things are a bit different in Northern Europe. I have several friends in Oz that are arranger keyboard players in down-under bands as well. Some originally played synths several years ago, but they said after playing a high-end arranger keyboard they would never go back.

Good Luck,

Gary

Bill you always seem to do this. You answer what is essentially a musical question with a technology based answer. The poster asked the question the question

'Anyone have any songs that you have wanted to play on your arranger keyboard but you gave up on because of limitations of the instrument? Every once in awhile I run across a tune with specific breaks, styles, meter or tempo changes that I feel I can't pull off. In these cases I just try a completely different style from the original (make my own unique arrangement) or as a last resort use a SMF. I run into this problem mostly with Latin music (not having the correct style)'

My answer was simply that if you had the skills to programme your keyboard, any keyboard arranger or not you were only limited by your talent.

The poster was basically saying that if it wasnt all packaged up for them in a style they woould struggle with some challenging songs whether it was because of time signatures or just lack of avalability of styles. I am not disrespecting the poster. I simply told the truth, that if he had the skill levels he could make his owns styles on te arranger or just sequence the music on his arranger or just as he would have to on any keyboard. The keyboard is only limited by the ability of the player using it.

I dont know why folks get blind sided the words 'arranger' .

Bill j have a great respect for your technical knowledge but in this case it simply is not applicable .Your answer had nothing whatsoever to do with the question asked or even my response . What has hard ware, software VST etc got to do with anything at all ???

If the playre can reproduce the music he wants on an arranger then he is unlikely to be able to do it with any other instrument .

Gary,

It’s a good thing for them, your prices must be too low, if you put them up they may pan you and then you can take the well earned rest. I can well understand that a website in your business isn't going to get you new gigs, they never will, who wants to look at a booking sheet, probably a thief who knows you’re not home on certain dates, you would be a dummy posting your diary IMO, did you have demos on your website, that should get people interested, they can see your performance and make a judgement.

Are you still cutting people up or putting them to sleep or being wisked from the high seas.

Regards

Tony

One of the major reasons I never say anything, on-line, about road trips or tours before I do them, and only afterwards...not a wise move to announce when your home will be left unattended, especially if you live alone.

That is a good point, Tony.

Ian

Ian,

I would be the last person in the World to tell the entire World where I am on certain days of the year, perhaps the people who do it have big dogs at home or leave their Doris to deal with the robbers when they knock on the door with a sledge hammer.

Always better to be wise before the event, but if advertising your whereabouts to the World is your weakness, then so be it. I am getting wiser as I get older not silly.


Tony

Tony,

I escaped from the field of medicine many years ago and never looked back. That was a difficult decision to make, but I still believe it was one of the better moves I've made in my life.

I'm still sailing, though, but not as much as I would like. The boat is big enough to sail to the UK, but I'm just too old to make the voyage across the pond.

As for the pay-scale, if you recall I posted something about this last year. I raised my prices by 25%, lost one client, and gained four more. I guess because I charge more they think I'm better--go figure.

I never posted a calendar on my website--figured that the maintenance was too much, and it told the entire world when you were not home. Additionally, it provided site visitors with your telephone number, which could easily lead to someone stealing your identity.

Cheers,

Gary

Garry,

A more sensible approach from you about your website, and BTW the waves in the pond can get up to 40ft would you be happy with that if you did make the trip, how long is the boat.

Tony

The boat is 33-feet long and tips the scales at 12,500 pounds. It's a Morgan 33 Out-Island, which was specifically designed for blue-water sailing. The boat could handle the 40-foot waves, but this old man could not.

If I were 40 years younger I wouldn't hesitate to make the voyage. Alas, Father Time and the Grim Reaper are both catching up to me much faster than I anticipated. Attached is a photo of a Morgan 33 OI located in Florida. For some reason I'm not able to access my photobucket account with this new computer.

Cheers,

Gary

Excellent point ... that's why I talked about our Hawaii trip AFTER it was over ...

Just to prove that what works for one guy doesn't another, I have a fairly good web presence and typically pull in an extra 5k a year through Corporate gigs and private parties that have verified they found my website and based on the appearance/demos, etc. decided to hire me. .

Plus, my regular clients say the love having the ability to book directly through my website. They say its a huge time saver for them and no one misses the phone tag frustrations.

OTOH, I think Gary has had great success with direct mail, and I've never found it to be cost effective.

The two of us I think, both turn away a nice chunk of work every year. So, two different aspects of a marketing plan, which take different routes, seem to wind up at mostly the same place.

Interesting stuff...