Hi Ian

When was the last time you saw an arranger on stage in a band etc. then tell me when you last saw a Workstation on stage in a band?

The truth is outside of Home Users and OMB; the extra facilities an arranger gives (Styles etc.) are not needed in live or studio work. (Except as a scratchpad as I previously mentioned)

You wouldn’t use a family sedan to go off road or up a mountain, (As it would be completely out of its depth) you would use a vehicle designed for the job.

Look at the arranger as a family sedan and the off road vehicle as a workstation, both do similar jobs, but both have features added for their specific jobs. (It’s up to the user to decide which one they want, many have both)

Bill

I see more arrangers in use in a band than ever before...just because you don't see them on TV doesn't mean that they aren't being used professionally.

There are several bands in my area alone using PSR/Tyros/Korg/Roland arrangers, either as stand alone instruments and/or part of the group sound by using style accompaniments.

Today's arrangers are far beyond the old style instruments...most have enough workstation features to act as one, and still retain all the advantages of the arranger (quick record, styles, pads etc.)

I've worked many years in a studio, and our production time was greatly reduced by using an arranger (and yes, we used styles).

At one time arrangers and workstations were job specific, but, in my professional experience, the line has blurred considerably and today's arrangers are as powerful (in some cases more powerful) than workstations.

I personally know several pros using styles in the studio as well as the ones I mentioned in my previous post...and, I'm sure my experience is not isolated.

No, I wouldn't use a family sedan for "off-road", but, I don't go off-road...most people who own a SUV never ever take them off road, although I suppose the potential is there. More "bragging rights" than actual usage, in my opinion.

No, I'd rather use an arranger, (in my case a Tyros4 with 1 gig expansion pack) which is far faster and far easier to use than a workstation.

Ian

You can use an Arranger in anything related to music, take for example the KORG PA series, not only do you have a synthesizer but also a sampler, so what is an arranger? a synth that you can also play multi-timbral sounds, and the Tyros 4 has 2 gigs sample playback, you can do a lot of things with that alone.

HI Ian

Its good to hear about bands using arrangers, but in Europe there are thousands of bands using keyboards and the vast majority are workstations or synths.

The same applies to YouTube; you see thousands of bands using Workstations/Synths, but very few using arrangers.

Your last 2 paragraphs points out the differences brilliantly, for Home Users, OMB and as a scratch pad for getting a good backing track going in a studio, then the arranger blows Workstations/Computer based systems out the water.

Once that work is done however, you want top notch sounds, and the ability to fine edit and modify it to get something really unique, and just like a Sedan is no good off road, an arranger is not suitable to get a really top notch unique sound production. (It was never designed for that purpose)

In the end it all comes down to what suits you, in your case the T4 does everything you need, (Just as other arrangers do it for their users) but for me, I enjoy the software route, as I find the limitations (For me) of an arranger make them not suitable. (There is no right or wrong with either, as they were both designed for different jobs)

Bill

I don't agree, Bill...as far as "top notch sounds', the Yamaha Tyros4 has no equal as far as I'm concerned.

It's the perfect keyboard for my needs, encompassing exceptional one man band performance, super accurate sounds for studio work as well as styles and pads, and ideal "band" sounds if I ever need them.

Bill, above all, I'm a "live" player, not a dabbler, software collector, or much of an extreme tweaker either...the instrument has to perform many functions and roles exceptionally well, which the Yamaha Tyros4 does in spades. My way of expression is actually playing, not having round and round discussions on the latest VST or recording software...I leave that to those who want and need that sort of thing.

If you need VST's and other additions to do your work, that's okay...I do not; I'm very content with what the arranger gives me.

Ian

You are pretty well right on the mark, Gary. Since I've been demoing arrangers, especially the higher end PSR and Tyros series, we have outfitted several professional studios with arranger instruments.

On my last tour I ran into one of the first studio owners we sold a Tyros2 to, and they are upgrading to a Tyros4 after hearing it at one of my demos.

Dan, the owner, said that they have done several albums using the Tyros2 alone, and the reviews were very positive.

I also did some recording for a songwriter who lives on mainland Nova Scotia, and we used a PSR-S910 that I had midi'd to a Yamaha KX8 controller for the full piano parts...the recordings were mastered on a Yamaha digital recorder/mixer, and then went directly to Nashville, the instruments on the tunes being the S-910, his guitar (and his vocals-sometimes utilizing the S910's harmonizer), and some harmonica work by a friend of his.

I know you have experienced the same reaction from people as I have when they are totally amazed at the sound, backgrounds (styles) and overall musicality of the arranger keyboard...I always used to say, "This isn't your grandma's Casio!"

Sounds in arrangers easily rival high end workstations, and there are more people catching on to the value of an arranger, both "live" and in the studio.

Ian

PS...Gary, do you still have a website?

I'm a BIG FAN of arrangers for film score roughs, and for an occasional low end project (usually, a non-profit).

In fact, I have had people, including my friend and superior studio musician Rory ask me why not use a rough (he was listening to a rough for a film for a car manufacturer).

He was right...in that case, I could have pulled it off.


But, my full scale scores are almost always done with mostly live players...rarely even use work stations. Samples are sometimes used when the budget is tight.

I pride myself in the quality of our scores, and have access to enough high end business to make that happen.

Arrangers are GREAT for getting the ball rolling, though.


Russ
(disclaimer: This is the way I do it, and it is not my intent to say that this is the only way to produce film scores or to knock arrangers, those who play them or the projects done on them)


SO THERE! (LOL)!

Well said Russ...there really is no "right" or "wrong" way...the right way is the one that works best for you.

Hiring competent studio musicians is cool, if you have the budget...not everyone wants to go through that expense and risk.

In my case, arrangers not only get the ball rolling...they also keep it rolling.

Ian

Ian,

I dumped the website a couple years ago because it didn't produce a single job during the entire time I had it up, and it took more time and effort to keep everything updated than I had to devote to it. From the hits it had, most were from other musicians who wanted to find out where I was performing--not new or current clients. Hell, I'm trying to slow down and semi-retire, but no one will let me. I guess that's a good thing.

Bill,

In my part of the world, Mid-Atlantic USA, there are loads of 3 to 6-piece bands that have an arranger keyboard player in the group. In fact, I don't think I've seen more than one or two bands that use Synths during the past decade. I guess things are a bit different in Northern Europe. I have several friends in Oz that are arranger keyboard players in down-under bands as well. Some originally played synths several years ago, but they said after playing a high-end arranger keyboard they would never go back.

Good Luck,

Gary

Bill you always seem to do this. You answer what is essentially a musical question with a technology based answer. The poster asked the question the question

'Anyone have any songs that you have wanted to play on your arranger keyboard but you gave up on because of limitations of the instrument? Every once in awhile I run across a tune with specific breaks, styles, meter or tempo changes that I feel I can't pull off. In these cases I just try a completely different style from the original (make my own unique arrangement) or as a last resort use a SMF. I run into this problem mostly with Latin music (not having the correct style)'

My answer was simply that if you had the skills to programme your keyboard, any keyboard arranger or not you were only limited by your talent.

The poster was basically saying that if it wasnt all packaged up for them in a style they woould struggle with some challenging songs whether it was because of time signatures or just lack of avalability of styles. I am not disrespecting the poster. I simply told the truth, that if he had the skill levels he could make his owns styles on te arranger or just sequence the music on his arranger or just as he would have to on any keyboard. The keyboard is only limited by the ability of the player using it.

I dont know why folks get blind sided the words 'arranger' .

Bill j have a great respect for your technical knowledge but in this case it simply is not applicable .Your answer had nothing whatsoever to do with the question asked or even my response . What has hard ware, software VST etc got to do with anything at all ???

If the playre can reproduce the music he wants on an arranger then he is unlikely to be able to do it with any other instrument .