Hi,
I have recently purchased a Ketron SD2 and a Fatar (Studiologic) VMK-188 Plus as a keyboard controller.
I have worked out how to access the sounds in the SD2 (pages 37-40 of the SD2 manual) - good!
I have also finally manged to activate the organ drawbars & percussion on pages 42 & 45 of the SD2 manual using Bank MSB = 67.

However I simply can't activate the Rotor settings on page 42 nor the Reverb, Distorsor settings on page 44. via the slider, knob, button on or pedals connected to the VMK.

A critical task to get this rig setup for live playing is to get the rotor/leslie working via one of the pedals attached to the VMK workstation.
The pedal programing on the VMK allows me to set the following parameters:
* Midi Channel (number)
* Control Change (number)
* Min & Maximum values (0-127)
* Polarity (of the pedal).

I note in the SD2 manual it says:
CONTROL 1EH Bnh 1EH
00H = rotor OFF
40H = rotor slow
7FH = rotor fast

How do convert the above SD2 codes into VMK Midi Channel, Control Change & minimum and maximum values?

Thanks for your help

------------------
Nigel Spiers
Blues and Views

Those values given are in hexadecimal notation...7fH = 7f HEX.

Go online to ask for a hex to decimal converter.
(I have a caclulator that does it)
Hope this helps,
Lee

Hi Leeboy,

Thanks for your reply.
Yes I have a hex to dec converter and have used that to activate the CC codes for the Ketron SD2 drawbars, drawbar percussion, volume, expression etc.

The problem is that nothing happens when I put in the Rotor cc settings and the same for the reverb.

In particular I am interested in what I am doing wrong with the rotor settings - ON, SLOW & FAST i.e. what exactly should I key into the following settings in my controller keyboard:
* Midi Channel (number)
* Control Change (number)
* Min & Maximum values (0-127)
* Polarity (of the pedal).

Thanks for your help
Best Regards

I will look at the manual on-line & try to find the answer...

You would think AJ would help out here?????

I'm not sure, with this lack of support I will buy a Ketron product.
If Ketron wants to get some serious business they need to make some serious effort... Do they sleep all day?

Lee

Nigel,
Try sending controller # 30
Values upper = 00, lower = 00 for off
Values upper = 16, lowe = 16 for slow
Values upper = 127, lower = 127 for fast
(in other words send the 00, 16 or 127)

on the midi channel you are sending notes to (playing on)

Not sure if it is correct, but worth a try.

Lee

Hi Leeboy,

Thanks for your help. Yes I've tried that and nothing!
I have now got the Reverb (Control 5BH) and Effects (Control 5DH) on page 42 of the manual to work.
But No leslie/rotor yet on page 42.
I'd be really interested to learn from you or anybody whether you can get Controller 30 to work and how.
Alternatively the Leslie is also mentioned on page 44 of the manual under the section TYPE EFFECTS CHANNEL ASIGN. Maybe this has something to do with it also - I'd love some help on this topic also.

Thanks again.
Best Regards

Hi Nigel,

As per our discussion over on the pgmusic forum, the hexadecimal code does indeed translate to CC30 .

BUT -- I, too have been unable to get the Rotor effect to work, have tried everything and then some that I could think of.

I called AJ on the phone and also sent him an email about this, about a week ago. Haven't heard anything as of yet, will rattle his chain again soon.

One thing I did find out that is interesting, if you select some of the tonewheel organ MIDI patches from the banks, the CC11, which is supposed to be the MIDI Chorus control, does indeed invoke a Leslie simulator at the Slow Chorale setting.

BTW --if you aren't using a true stereo amplification rig onstage, with two channels driving two separate speakers, this Leslie effect does not sound right and may be hard to detect. A lot of keyboard amps and many PAs have stereo inputs but only one power amp driving both speakers. Boo. This can make the best of Leslie simulations sound like a sick guita amp tremelo. Gotta have stereo to hear the AM and FM components that make Don Leslie's design deliver that thrilling animation.

BTW -- that slow chorale on the SD2 is darned good sounding.

But I need rotor control and the fast setting,too.

Will keep ya posted, as soon as I know something so will you!


--Mac

I have just sent an email regarding this subject and have been promised that it will be forwarded to Technical Dept. of Ketron in Italy.

Let's hope there is a quick (and easy) solution to this problem.


--Mac

Guys,
I think you are doing it right according to the book. Also, MIDI CC 11 is expression, why would it control chorus?

BTW, that manual is very poor for the SD2.
Lee

Hi Mac & Leeboy,
Thanks for your answers and help.
1. CC11 - yes I get Expression on this controller also which is what the manual says I should get - strange result with your slow Rotor Mac!
2. CC30 - yes looks like this does not work for any of us!
3. Distorter - I cannot get this to work either - have either of you had any luck with this controller?
4. If we every get this fully sorted I promise I will write a proper document/manual on how to use the SD2.
4. Mac - you commented in a recent message via the BIAB forum that you are looking at a new keyboard controller to use with your Ketron SD2. I believe you mentioned either an M-Audio or Novation keyboard. As previously mentioned I am also trying to setup a live keyboard rig (keyboard controller & sound module + pedals) and hence I have purchased SD2 and Studiologic (Fatar) VMK-188 Plus. This 88 key fully weighted action is great however the MIDI implementation and the operation of the keyboard's 8 sliders, 8 knobs and 8 buttons is very basic and not really suited to live use. Live I need to pre-program around 8 sounds (organs, pianos and E. pianos) and instantaneously swap between them and apply volume, leslie and expression via lighted buttons and/or pedals. Plus it is also helpful to have keyboard splits to play 2 different sounds at one time.
The action on the Studiologic keyboard is truly excellent and it's very heavy and strong but it simply can't do any of the above. Have you got any suggestions or alternatives. I came from a Roland VK8 keyboard where the live controls were great but the sounds were poor and I am very loath to go back to locking myself into that overpriced and proprietory type of solution.

I look forward to hearing from you and anybody else in similar situation.
Best Regards


------------------
Nigel Spiers
Blues and Views

Hi,
luv to know if either of you has managed to mute any of the sd2 channels in a multi module setup.
ie have the sd2 receive data on just say channels 1, 2, 3, 4 but not on the rest.
Question came up a while back, I just couldn't get it work yet I think I had the correct codes.
Don't know if the manual may be incorrect, or the sd2 won't accept the codes, or I just plain got it wrong, though I did get my sd1 to work with using these codes.

Quite honestly I don't understand them I was just trying to copy from the manual.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017334.html

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NigelSpiers:
[B]

Hi Nigel,
Sorry for this OT question, but WHERE did you get the VMK from?? I am in Australia and cannot find a dealer anywhere!!!??

I can only find supplies from the USA and because of the weight they will not ship.

Any help if you can would be appreciated so I can track one of these down.

Thanks

Dennis

To Rikkisbears:
I havn't tried this because I don't have multiple sound modules.

To Midden:
Yes i can help here - I am in NZ and no Fatar dealer here either. I purchased mine from the US from a company called Audiomidi in California and they shipped to NZ no problems although the freight was significant.

Thanks Nigel, I will check them out..

Dennis

Hey guys,
I tried a lot of MIDI boards before settling on the CME UF 70 (76 key) The action is excellant, and is pretty quiet. The vel and aftertouch work very nicely.

But, I did not need a lot of controllers as I use it as a second manual under my T2 and/or PA2. But the action is the best I could find.

I did not try the VMK, because I wanted something easy to put under the PA2.

Lee

Ooops.


Typo on my part, sorry, the rotor for the MIDI bank tonewheel organ patches is controlled by the Chorus, which is CC93.

Why the Chorus controls slow rotor depth is something only the Ketron lab is likely to be able to answer, but that's what happens here.

--Mac

Well, as I mentioned over on the pgmusic off-topic forum to you, I'm looking to pick up another M-Audio Keystation Pro-88 keyboard controller.

Had one here in the studio, let a fellow who was headed out on the road talk me out of it, but it would do all those tasks easily, I think. Not a bad 'board, I could live with it onstage or in the studio. Some players put a lot into the feel of the weighted action on different keyboards, if you are one of those, then I heartily suggest trying to find one in a music store to try out first. If you can.

--Mac

Hi Mac,
wonderful to see you on the Synthzone forum.
Wasn't sure it was you, till till you mentioned pg.
We can always do with some extra help. haahaa.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by --Mac:
[B]
Well, as I mentioned over on the pgmusic .

'Twas a pleasure to see that you are here, rikkisbears.

Thanks for the warm welcome!


--Mac

Hi Mac,

1. CC93 - Thanks I'll give it a go. Look forward to your news from Ketron re fast rotor CC.

2. M-Audio 88 Pro workstation - yes this is well spec'd and reasonably priced. However I was put off by the negative reviews on Harmony Central especially relating to the velocity sensing of the keyboard which apparently is very poor. We all know how bad it is to have a keyboard with a few bum notes that you have to play around all the time (too loud, too quiet or wrongly sampled tone which does not match the rest of the key tones) so I did not progress it any further.

Best Regards

Nigel,

I understand that some of those complaints are likely due to people who got the first stuff off the line. Typical problem these days, things get sorted by the next production run.

Anyway, the unit I had here at the studio was in working condition on every note. Every function worked as advertised, also.

But of course I don't expect the same kind of action and all from a keyboard with a pricepoint so much lower than the one you are currently playing, either. As an engineer, I consider all designs of man to be a series of tradeoffs and we must weigh the tradeoffs carefully whenever specifying any piece of equipment for any possible task consideration. In order to get all those assignable CC knobs, the tradeoff there was the keybed. However, when used in conjunction with my 88 key piano that does NOT have all of those controller functions, I got the best of both worlds onstage, as is the fellow who talked me out of that very affordable Keystation.

My aging back can tell you that carrying two `40lb keyboards stacked on a rack still beats the Roll-R-Kari, B3, Leslie, Wurly piano, Rhodes suitcase piano, Hohner Clavinet and the Yamaha 88 key portagrand!


--Mac

Hi Mac,
Yes you are right there are always trade-offs in keyboards especially when I cannot justify the expense of buying a top of the line RD700. Also I agree that the second generation of a keyboard is typically better and I still have the M-Audio keyboard on my list to re-evaluate. I must say I'm very happy with the solidity and keyboard action of the Studiologic VMK-188 Plus and the sounds from the Ketron SD2 all at a very reasonable price. The trade-off's in this case are the very "basic" MIDI implementation in the Studiologic.

Once we get a response from AJ and Ketron regarding the Fast Rotor setting for the Ketron SD2 I will spend some more time on getting this rig sorted out and let you know how I get on.

Best Regards

------------------
Nigel Spiers
Blues and Views

Received a reply via email today, this message got forwarded by Ted at Ketron USA to Italy and back through him to get to me:

We will have to be able to send some SYSEX commands as well. This may impact the brand and model of keyboard controller, I think. Will have to investigate further, of course.




Just received this info, haven't had time to try it out, wanted to post it as quickly as possible so you'd know also.

Will be trying to send the Sysex with software sequencers, Powertracks first, just to proof the thing. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the keyboard controllers I've got onhand here can send any SYSEX, mumble-mumble, where's the manual...

--Mac

Why in the H did they do it that crazy way instead of simple CC's?

Don't they know we will use the modules (SD2, SD4, Midjay, SD3 etc) with MIDI CONTROLLER keyboards as well as some that may use PC's?

Lee

Hi Mac,

Thanks for this update. I don't have Powertracks to try this out - just BIAB or my keyboard controller which definitely can't send this kind of string to SD2.

PS I got a bit desperate the other day and went and bought a Line 6 Leslie pedal called a Roto Machine - big mistake!

I'll await results of your testing before I take next steps.

Best Regards


------------------
Nigel Spiers
Blues and Views

Well, the SD2 is actually the sound engine lifted out of one of Ketron's keyboards. As such, it represents a dynamite way to upgrade MIDI sounds for those of us who own plenty of older keyboards with built in synths. That's the reason for my interest in the Ketron, and even if I never ever had the tonewheel organ drawbars and rotating speaker effect I would still call this little box a darn good bargain at its street price. Instead of upgrading an entire keyboard yet again, less than $400US puts me at the forefront of great samples. That's MUCH less than buying the latest and greatest keyboard one mo' time.

And the M-Audio Keystation 88 Pro can indeed send Sysex, programmable from its knobs, according to the manual, so there's at least one solution for getting at the drawbars and rotor control.

AND -- there are at least three software pieces available for free download from the Ketron website, one for Sonar, Logic and Cubase IIRC -- these have pictorial drawbars and leslie control on them for use with DAWs, etc. Here's hoping an enterprising programmer might roll up a generic one in VST guise that would run from any VST capable software.

All in all, still a great bargain no matter what. I don't expect ketron to redevelop things for a product of this type, at least they let us know the drawbars and rotor are IN the thing, I wonder how many other companies would have simply avoided the issue and not told anybody, electing to make the money off of the 380 MIDI patches alone, leaving this information hidden.

Its a great little box.


--Mac

Mac,
Thanks for the perspective. I want to either get a SD-2 or a SD-4 which is supposed to be out soon..

Waiting to see the SD-4 first and the price to decide...

I will do some homework as to how I can send the sysex.

Lee

To Nigel--

I got the rotor effect to work tonight using Powertracks to send that Sysex followed by Controller 30 set to either 0 for OFF, 64 for Chorale and 127 for Fast.

Not all that excited about the effect I hear on the stereo nearfields, though, the 64 and 127 are static. In other words, there is not the excitement of spin-up and spin-down, it is a choice of one or the other (unless I'm missing something here). The effect is also not all that dramatic IMO, don't know how valuable it would be in a live situation actually. Well, maybe a little, but after using the B4 live, I'm not sure if this will be a worthwhile replacement or not, a pity since I was hoping this would be the last thing I would need in order not to have to drag a laptop to every gig, just to use the B4.

YMMV, but unless I can come up with spin-ups and spin-downs, I think I'll just have to settle for what the SD2 can do and does do really well, which are the piano and the midi instruments, the drawbar organ inside it does sound pretty nice, and the MIDI organ patches, some of which at least have Chorale effect off of the Chorus CC93 will have to suffice, I think.

But my copy of Native Instruments B4 organ with leslie simulator plus laptop is still going to go to the gigs, right alongside my SD2.


--Mac

Hi Mac,

Thanks for your testing and update and it's great to hear that you got the rotor working.
Interestingly I have also come to similar conclusions as you i.e. I will use the ketron SD2 primarily for BIAB and live I will use the SD2 for Piano & Rhodes plus maybe one of their bank organ sounds - Gospel Organ. I have played extensively with the SD2 drawbar sounds and unfortunately they just don't work for me - no zing - they remind me of a Farfisa on holiday. I believe that some of the bank organ sounds in the SD2 (e.g. the Gospel Organ) may have been sampled from a real Hammond organ and Leslie speaker.
For the majority of organ work I am currently investigating the Voce Drawbars and Spin units. I play Blues, Soul and Gospel music and what I really want is that amazing Hammond/Leslie sound where during slow songs all your hear of the organ in the background is that fast rotor sound and maybe just a touch or no drawbars at all - more air than actual tone.
Having now made the move from a single and very expensive proprietary keyboard (Roland VK8) to a workstation and module solution I am still very happy with this route. I now don't have to put up with the frustrations of some good sounds and some unplayable ones - I will just purchase the modules I need to get a selection of really high quality sounds at a reasonable price.
Anyway - thanks again for all your help and I wish you all the best in your quest for a great live keyboard rig.




------------------
Nigel Spiers
Blues and Views

Hi all,
The SD2's sounds were created via Sample Synthesis. In other words, sounds sampled at a few velocties,then edited via synthesis... Loop points set, then vibrato added with LFO's, then pitch adjusted.

When no one could answer me about why certain sounds weren't quite 'right'( or if they could they possibly wouldn't bother to reply) I got the hair to look at the SD5's manual. Keep in mind that this little tiny box is the sound engine from the SD5 Arranger keyboard. Most any time I want to find out more about the SD2 I go looking in the SD5's manual, especially seeing as there is virtually no info in the SD2's manual, other then the patch and bank assignments and the SysEx commands.

Want to know the polyphony, or any other simple info that is 'need to know' stuff? You won't find it in the SD2 manual. You have to find it in the SD5's manual.

I believe this unit was designed for the desktop musician and not really for the working live musician attempting to control it via a keyboard.

That's a good tip, one that I found out myself a few weeks ago, but it really isn't all that helpful here. There are also key differences between SD2 commands and SD5 commands, check out the drawbars for one thing.

Another thing is that the same SYSEX command is needed to change the effect to Rotary before you can use the CC comand for Fast, Slow or Stop. Easy as pie when using a sequencer program from a computer, not so easy when wishing to turn the rotor on and off from the average MIDI controller keyboard.



Undoubtedly, even the picture shows it hooked up to a laptop.

Still, even considering that, I've been using it in Live Gig situations (with live band, not as autoaccompaniment) to great results, considering.

Got another Keystation Pro 88 here now, and found out that it cannot send the Sysex string needed to fire the rotating speaker in the SD2 either. Not a kill IMO. Everything else in the SD2 sounds so good and the price is RIGHT. Still a great way to upgrade the sound of some of these keyboards I've got that are still quite functional but contain dated sounding samples in them.

Gave up on the tonewheel organ and leslie aspects of the thing, am resigned that the NI B4 is still what I shall use on those gigs. Was hoping to get away from the laptop, but what the hey.

Still a good point on that SD5 manual, the real hardhead Midiots should definitely download it and use it to find out more about the SD2.


--Mac



[This message has been edited by --Mac (edited 07-31-2008).]

I just got a VMK-176+ to go with my Ketron SD2 and I find it to be a dream set-up for both for ~$1000 total. One thing that helps me is that I also have a Behringer B-Control Nano BCN44 controller that can do the Sysex messages (like "turn on the Leslie Effect"). I'd recommend it as a cheap way to do that kind of stuff. I got mine for ~$45. It is also handy for changing sounds, banks, etc. I even use it to give me 2 sounds at once (piano and strings or whatever).

The B-control fits nicely on the left side of the keyboard while the SD-2 sits nicely on the right.

Thanks for forging the way ahead on setting up the drawbar organ with Leslie.

------------------
-TT

Hi,

There is a software who can give you access of 100% of your SD2 module.

-Nice drawbars presets included
-all FXs including Rotors can be changed easily
-all functions are EASILY midi controlable
-autoacompagnment feature (plays natively all ketron PAT)
-.........
http://www.varranger.fr

Dan