For quite some time now I have been wanting to write this kind of article on all of those things that I reflect on when visiting the SZ or other forums, and all related to arranger keyboards.

To begin with I think we should realize that apart from the age aspect,(most arranger keyboard players and performers won’t see the age of 50 again, no offence to the younger ones, au contraire……) but here on the SZ forum the majority of arranger players are (semi) professional performers. (Scott, Donny, Fran, Don, Dave, to name but a few). As such the keyboard market is a substantially different one from the arranger keyboard market in Europe where after all the keyboard playing harks back to the old days when many a family here in Holland and nearby countries would have a home organ (Eminent,etc) either related to religious practice or not. As such I think more than 80% of arranger players here are still homeplayers. A significant detail to remember when reflecting on the aspects still to cover.

Having programmed on many keyboards over the last 20 years, basically sounds and registrations it strikes me time and time again how there seems to be an insatiable desire for STYLES. Even recently someone remarked here how he was working his way thru literally thousands and thousands of styles for his new Korg PA keyboard. The question is whether his time and efforts will be worth it cause in my experience the best styles are either residing within the keyboard already or are supplied later on by the manufacturer either as an update or simply as a free download. Of course there are those professionals who occasionally program their own styles but generally they are far and few between. And then of course there are the few companies, particularly in Germany who actually sell styles ( at quite a price) and some of which are really good, many do not pass average though. What few people have managed to do or are bothered to do is to use a basically good style and transform it into yet another good or even better style. Particularly on the Korg arrangers this can easily be done. In my experience Yamaha players are generally content with what is thrown at them either by Yamaha itself or by aforesaid companies that produce off-the-peg styles.

Yet another remarkable phenomenon in my view are the insatiable desire for SONGSTYLES. Particularly Yamaha players have a virtually limitless array of songstyles. Personally I am not all that fond of songstyles but that is because I do not perform publicly/ in front of an audience. I can well understand that professional performers need songstyles that remind the audience of the hit that they are trying to cover. Not always a very creative process but it is what I would call the “ feast of recognition “.

As regards SOUNDS and REGISTRATIONS it has to be said that 80% of arranger keyboard players, in particular the ones at home do not get past the factory stuff, apart from nano adjustments to these aspects. That of course is a shame cause the present day arranger keyboards offer so much more and what you hear out of the box is often less than 50% of its potential. Soundwise there is a most peculiar phenomenon as well. We keep on hunkering for new and better samples and bashing one make in favour of another. The people in the audience do not hear the difference anyway but apart from that :
How many sounds do you really need and actually use ? Most arrangers have hundreds of ( on average very good) sounds arranged in approx.. twenty banks. Piano wise you will need two or three good pianos at most. ( for solo piano, for rock and for whatever). And if you go down the list that goes for most divisions. My contention is that if you have 100 no even 50 good right hand sounds that you actually use it will be plenty. And however close they may come they are never the real thing cause an accordion player will hear the difference straightaway and the same for a sax player etc. Funny come to think of it....

Wich brings me to REGISTRATIONS. Where there is a lively black and white market in the trade of styles no such thing occurs when we deal with Registrations. (user programs Roland, performances Korg, registrations Yamaha). We all program them to some extent but where to get or buy good ones, no one knows. Swapping hardly takes place because either one thinks his own programming below par, or because they have invested so much time in it that they do not want to give away their hard work and/or ideas.
As you all know I dabble a lot in this area offering lots of Resources for the Korg PA arrangers. I have yet to come across someone who wants to swap registrations , or think it is a worthwhile endeavour. A shame cause they can get the creative juices flowing imho.

Finally we come to the merits of keyboard makes, their weight, size and internal amplification. Again here is a substantial difference in the approach by (semi) professional and home players. Belonging to the latter category I swear by keyboards with internal speakers. After all it is dead easy to switch them off and replace them by whatever monitor or amplification system whereas vice versa is impossible. On top of that I find that all of one’s programming will sound different from the moment you alter the amplificiation system. For example I have programmed extensively on the PA800 but when I hear my best registrations on a PA2X they sound different, sometimes even better often less , depending on what speakers system is being used.

Thank God we are nearing the end of the road as to which make is better etc.etc. For starters there are only two or three worthwile makes left in the field of arranger keyboards. And as you know it is my conviction that more often that not you are better of with having two different make keyboards at your disposal, no matter which price range. The differences in quality are getting negligible. That does not mean that they sound the same. As has often been said, and I agree, Yamaha for example sounds more like a CD production whereas Korg and Ketron give you the feel of a real band behind you.Having both at your disposal must be the dream of any musician whatever his proficiency or likes.

I think that in this day and age we are a lucky bunch to have these ultra modern arranger keyboards at our disposal and I hope that in time next generations will continue to enjoy them ( no doubt with even more possibilities and even better samples) and that they will not grow extinct with the passing of time. There, I have said my piece !!!

Regards,
John

Well said, John

I agree with most of what you have said, and what I don't is purely subjective anyway.

Bernie

Hi John

Nicely put, however!

I think you’re treading a little on dangerous water when saying there are only two or three worthwhile arranger manufactures out there. (Although I know what you are trying to say)

One thing you have missed though, is the accelerated pace that arranger owners are adding a second keyboard and pedals to their arrangers, (Yamaha users in particular) as users get bored with the repetitiveness of styles, and so now prefer to try and do their own thing.

As I see it, song styles are primarily for home users so as to give them an idea what to play and how to set the instrument up, very few pro users need them, as they can play in pretty much any style they want, (Or record their own Midi or audio backing for a specific song) and adapt styles on the fly to suit any song. (Remember audiences could recognise what a performer was playing long before styles (Auto accompaniment) came out)

Overall a very good and positive post, and look forward to more.

Regards

Bill

Hi John,

There are some fantastic styles available for download. However as you stated correct, I have to listen to thousands to find the hundred or so that I want.

I do not use song styles as me and my wife sing praise and worship only when we do open air outreaches. Our music sounds similar to Hillsong and I use mostly Ballad and Rock styles.

On my Yamaha I did some extensive style modifications for use by myself only. It became quite easy to mix intros, endings, variations and solo tracks from other styles with the one I intended to use.

All of this is new to me for the Korg. Until I become more proficient with the PA50SD, I'll settle for now to the finding of good styles only. Some of the one's I've found thus far beats any style residing on the arranger itself, although those are already good as is.

Soon I'll make a recording or two from the Pa50SD and post here to demonstrate just what I mean. I'll slowly phase out onboard styles with better ones until I have what I want.

If you know of any Korg editing tools, please let me know. I do not like to edit styles at midi level, this takes all the fun out of keyboard playing for me as it just becomes too tedious.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Keep well all,

Henni

Thank you Bernie and Abacus,

Hennie, may I refer to another topic of mine here, as the resources on offer for the Micro are identical for the PA50. I will be happy to furnish you with them free of any obligation. see:
http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...r_Ko#Post341302

best wishes,
John

Hi John,

Thank you for your kind offer:

buildtofly@yahoo.com

or

hennie.vanrooyen@exxaro.com.

Keep well my friend,
Henni

Hi Guys,

you've probably found this site already, but, just in case.

http://www.korgpa.com/en/support/bonusware.html

You probably should have all the tools onboard that you need for style editing/recording. I'm not familiar with the pa50sd o/s, as my pa800 is the first korg I've owned since my i2 , some 20 years ago.
I had a quick look at the manual, it appears to have a lot of the tools my pa800/pa3x have for editing, though not as clearly set out .

If you're referring to pc editing tools like you get for psr's, they don't really exist. i think thereis a midifile to style tool, but I'm not aware of any others.

Hi,

Tx for the link. I had some of the stuff, now I've got everything.

Henni

Hi Guys

Keiths site might be of some interest to you also.
You've probably run across him thru yamaha .
He compiled a lot of the stuff that was written about on the korg forums , over a number of years.
Tutorials, articles etc & some software

http://korgpa2xpro.yolasite.com/

Hi Rikki.......a question.......I'm not that enthusiastic about using a touch screen, it's too "hit and miss." I prefer buttons. On your PA3x, can you navigate through the "sounds" and the "dance patterns" somehow by just using buttons or tabs?

Mark

Hi,

Tx once again for a very good link.

Henni

Hi John,

Just discovered to my horror that my yahoo account is no longer active - haven't used it for a while.

If you sent me some stuff, won't you please be so kind as to send to:

hennie.vanrooyen@exxaro.com

instead. Thank you so much once again for your kindness.

Henni

I did discover that on Saturday allready and afterwards sent it twice even to your other email address. You should have it by now. If not you may have to furnish me with yet another email address !

regards,
John

Well said John. I believe it was Uncle Dave who said something like he only needed about 12 good styles and about 20 good voices. Some of us would rather spend hours going through mountains of styles and buy the latest and greatest keyboard instead of working on our playing and song list. The exceptions to this are Fran and Boo who still play dinosaurs. I believe Boo still has to pump his with his feet.

Tom

Hi Mark,(
definately touch screen ( unless I've been missing something)
Basically you have a button to choose your Style Genre , just say DANCE. Press Dance Button, Up pops the Screen for P1( Page 1), ( there's 8 styles). You have the option of pressing p2,p3 etc on the screen via a tab, or you can keep pressing the Dance Button, to scroll thru the 5 Pages of styles. You do have to pick the individual style via the touch screen. It's a pretty big Icon , would be hard to miss.

Picking Sounds works the same way. You can press button for Piano, keep hitting button to go thru various PIANO pages, & touch the Piano sound you want. ( or you can scroll thru the pages using the touch screen pages Tab.)

Thanks Rikki....I'm going to look at the PA3x again this week. I'll follow what you said before I lose another milimeter of forefinger.

Mark

Hi John,

Thank you for your kindness. I received nothing as yet. I'll make another plan later on.

So sorry for the inconvenience my friend,
Henni

Thanks Riki for your advice regarding busy styles. I had not looked at it that way. Personally I have no problems with it, besides I have such a vast array of styles , including virtually every Yamaha style converted to Korg that there is always something there to cater for my need. And as I only play at home, and not even that much due to personal circumstances, I feel I have even too much to choose from.

Henni,
I have given it another try this morning, hope you will get it now.

regards,
John

Agreed, John. It's funny, but I don't 'get' the problem some seem to have with busy, or as I see it, interesting, full, styles. Mind you, I hardly ever play instrumentals, it's pretty well all vocals with me. But my right hand is busy enough with phrases, riffs, etc. as well, to complete the whole sonic picture. Here's the missus and me with my old i30 and an un-twesked style on an old Marvin Gaye/Tammi Terrell number.
http://www.box.com/shared/yxt9cpt3vg

Hello 124,

A bit shaky at the start but getting better as the song progresses. Great song thanks for sharing. The Korg i30 does a very strong backing here in my view. It goes to show that Korg drums were way ahead of their time half way the nineties. Incidentally which style did you use , I would like to hear it in my PA800.

Hearing this song I cannot help but re-locating the live version of my alltime favourite artist : Cliff Richard, duetting with Cilla Black.
For you Americans unfamiliar with the phenomenon Cliff Richard, He has been in the business since 1958 and has sold more records than ANY other artist, dead or alive. In the States he never really made it big time although he had a most memorable hit there in 1976 with Devil Woman.....This recording goes back to 2006 and his live tour. In November he did a minor UK tour with former Soul legends including the Temptations, Percy Sledge, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKTICOohRaU

Sorry for getting carried away and mucking up my own thread, back to keyboards therefor......

kind regards,
John

Hi John,

Thanks for the listen and your comments. The i30 style I used is simply called Motown - appropriate enough, I guess:-). Initially I said it was un-tweaked, but I'd forgotten to say that I'd changed the one of lead voices from tenor sax to organ - so it's organ and piano on the track. I also upped the tempo from its native 120 to 136. Other than those, it's as is.

As I'm from the UK originally, I know of Cliff well. Back in the day my skiffle group was in a 'battle of the bands' with his group. Must've been around 1957 when he was still plain old Harry Webb. We didn't win, neither did his group. :-) I bought all his old early records, though.

124 Nice job .....great old tune!

Thanks for that, Donny. I love all that old Motown stuff, it'll live forever.

Hope your medical woes are on the mend.

2 month rest then part 2 procedure beginning of May.....
thank you 124

Hi John & all,

'Fraid not. Not to worry, I'll make a plan soon. I should be able to receive up to 7MB on my exxaro account, so I do not understand why not. (hennie.vanrooyen@exxaro.com)

I have a question for you. I see a lot of mentioning about pads. Can my Pa50SD play pads in the same way the Yamaha's play multipads?

Also this songbook feature that Donny finds so nice, do I have it on the Pa50SD also?

Maybe I should start to look at the style editing features. Can intros and endings be copied from other styles?

Rikki, may I not maybe have some of your converted Yamaha styles other than those yamaha ones I've found on the web?

John, I found some Bankstyles on the net. How do I load it into my Pa50SD? I presume these replace my default styles.

Keep well my friends,
Henni

[img:center]http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13584.0;attach=7112[/img]

[img:center]http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13584.0;attach=7160[/img]

Ha ha,

Tried to be wise & to insert two pics - well it did not work & I am no longer allowed to remove or edit it.

Sorry for the inconvenience all,

Henni

I have a question for you. I see a lot of mentioning about pads. Can my Pa50SD play pads in the same way the Yamaha's play multipads?

Nope, in actual fact you cannot even use it the way you can with PA500 and PA800, that is using sequences ( in actual fact extra acc. tracks). You can only choose certain short sounds, predominantly drum elements. ( see list on page 226 of your manual).

Also this songbook feature that Donny finds so nice, do I have it on the Pa50SD also?

Nope again. Actually that is where I " went wrong " with some folks who acquired my 500/800 software over the last two years. As I started out with the PA80 (=PA50) I have always approached the performance settings the way others use their songbook. Of course you are limited to 160 settings, but heck how many songs do you want to exercise within two hours at home or during a performance ? And loading another ALL.set takes less than a minute. So in practice there is nothing wrong with using your Performances as a way of Songbook. Shame you have not managed to get my file as yet..........

Maybe I should start to look at the style editing features. Can intros and endings be copied from other styles?

Yes and no. Style editing is very worthwhile but not something you should start with. I think the best way is to get familiar with organising first ( load, save, restore data, etc), then get familiar with using, changing,and tweaking the upper sounds before getting to the more serious style editing. Of course it pays to tweak styles to a certain extent which I have done a lot in most of my Resources . Drums are the first that come to mind, and here you can tweak a lot more than in any other brand of keyboard thus giving the same style already a different feel or sound.


John, I found some Bankstyles on the net. How do I load it into my Pa50SD? I presume these replace my default styles.

Not necessarily, but it is all in the factory manual. It is also in the manuals that I wrote to accompany my Resources. You can replace one single style or a bank of styles in the users, but also in the factory style locations by first switching off "factory style protect ".....

greetings,
John

Hi John,

Thank you so much for your detailed answers. As soon as I can download your resources I'll provide you with feedback. Amongst the stuff I've found on the net, I've found quite a few of your conversions and even though I as yet still do not have the files to update all of my OS, I can allready hear a remarkable difference. Your modified styles sounds much more rich and full.

What freaks me out is the amount of turkish & other styles mixed with all the files I've downloaded. How I wish I had a program to quickly open a user style file to see what's inside and delete before even loading into my Pa50SD.

Another question please, is there perhaps a quick way to modify all those Pa500, 800 & Pa80 styles that won't open on my Pa50SD? There are so many such free utilities available for the Yamaha's. All I have is i30 Style Editor which I'm used to working with in the past, but it does not like my files.

All the best my friend,

Henni

Hi Henni,
I'd be happy for you to have them, regrettably discovered that EMC won't convert my PA800 conversions to PA80/50 format.
I was going to try & convert a couple waltzes thru EMC to work in KMA ( PA80/50 format also), but the data just dissapeared after I converted. Not sure if it's a bug, or it's just not possible to convert to the earlier format.

If I find some way round it I'd be happy to send them to you.

[quote=Henni]
Rikki, may I not maybe have some of your converted Yamaha styles other than those yamaha ones I've found on the web?

Hi,

Thank you so much for your trouble. Yamaha is lucky to have highly skilled talented private individuals who created advance style modification utilities that does just that - convert later model styles to work with older version Yamaha arrangers.

I've run many, many styles through those. Pity same can't be found for the Korgs. Guess that's why I'll never turn away from Yamaha, regardless of what I can afford in future. Imagine having a Tyros 4, Korg Pa3X and an Audya 5. Those toys can keep anyone happy for a very long time!

Keep well,
Henni

Hi Henni,
it's to do with Yamaha's style format, that makes them so versatile. Basically all one needs to do is change the .sty or .prs extensions to .mid & you got a midifile of the style. Can't do that with any other brand of keyboard style.
I don't know anything about computer programming, but maybe that's helped members like Jorgen & Michael being able to write the utility programs that they do.

I've owned Technics, Roland, Ketron , Yamaha & Korg keyboards over the years, Yamaha is the only one where i've been able to a brand new style into the previous model keyboard. ie psrs700 into psr1500. OK, maybe not perfect, but Jorgens/Michael's programs help to fix problems.
I can't load PA3X style into PA800, can't load PA800 style into PA80.
Strange, I though EMC would have made it possible to convert PA800 to PA80, I've never tried going backwards before just , from one brand to another.

Unfortunately EMC doesn't do a very good job of converting psr to korg, but Donny ( DNJ) mentioned on another post that EMC is converting his Roland & Ketron styles reasonably well to PA500 format. Given me a bizzare idea of maybe converting my PA800 conversions to Roland & then converting to PA50 format. Don't hold much hope that they'll sound any good, but I'm running out of ideas & I figure might be worth a try.

Hi Henni,

Upon your request I sent you my complete package for the Micro. As stated in my email I have also added a fair amount of my own style collection in addition to the Resources itself. In there you will find a large amount of Yamaha style conversions towards the PA50 and Micro. For starters loads going back to the renowned PSR9000 but also a couple of sets that find their origins in the early Tyros models. So I would suggest you give them a try first before searching for whatever conversion programme!!
Best of luck,

John

Are there any good tutorials for the Korg PA50sd the manual is less then productive. I would like to know about setting up registrations and good sound combinations. I would also like to know a good source of styles and registrations.

I posted this over in the Ketron Forum, it might interest you to know how I use my Audya 5

1) Deleted all user styles (which is just a clone of the factory styles that you have control over) and added only the styles I use (including many modified styles and ones created using style view.)

2) Create USER VOICE LISTS (these are blocks of sounds that can be called up quickly from the main screen). Some of my UVL's are song names others just styles of play. Many of my user voice list sounds are from the PROGRAM section which has my own modified sounds.

3) Link my USER VOICE LISTS to my various USER STYLES so they load when selecting the style

4) create registrations that link to a USER STYLE which in turn loads a USER VOICE LIST.

So basically when I select one of my styles it automatically brings up 10 voices on the screen that I will use with that particular style. Or I load a registration (sometimes I have two or three for a particular song because I am not a good enough player to change lots of things at the same time as playing the keys!).

I don't believe its possible to do this kind of deep level programming on any other board is it?

Wersi OAS 7 instruments can do that with ease; therefore I would be surprised if other manufactures didn’t have a similar system.

Bill

Add the Roland G70 to the top of that list...Just to mention a quick description.....
The user programs will remember all the panel settings, including tone edits, style edits,
harmony edits, as well as links to SMF's etc...The G70 can save the typical one touch settings.
.four selections, but they can save in each selection a group of 6 tones.
.these tones can be used by selected the tone button.....
each of the 4 one touch settings has a group of 6 tones, layered , split or what ever combination you want..

My favorite way to use tone selections....the G70 remembers the last tone selected in each family of tones..
.in reality ..this is 18 favorites (18 families including the SRX board and the Harmonic bars)..

The Genesys XP module has a similar feature as well. Each style is linked with 4 voices already set by GEM. These voices are called Style Presets. (You can easily replace these 4 voices with other voices of your choice).

In addition, there are empty slots for you to link even more voices to each style if you choose to do so on your own.

"the G70 remembers the last tone selected in each family of tones..
.in reality ..this is 18 favorites (18 families including the SRX board and the Harmonic bars"

This is also an option on PA3X. Very useful.
DonM

That was very well done !!!

Thank you, Machetero. Glad you enjoyed it.