Hey! Who doesn't like the Platters, The Diamonds (Little Darling)? Our band did all of the Do-Wop, Shoo Dupe N’ Shoobee Do stuff of the day and I still love it. Watched many a Do Wop on PBS over the years.

What I'm doing is drawing a comparison to two of the greatest vocal groups competing with the Do Wop groups back in the day early 50’s, to what the instrumentalist Jazzers had to go through with the R&R, R&B so on and so forth of the time.

These people ( The Four Aces and The Four Freshman) actually sang flatted ninths and extended notes of a chord. It is a shame they had to go by the wayside too.

All I am saying is I figure more than half the people here somewhere along the way has and probably works or worked with a group that could do just about every Do Wop song ever written, right?

Here is the big question. Are there any people here that were ever affiliated with a group of vocalist that could produce the harmony on the tunes I have posted here?

You do not hear groups today that can do what these vocalist did with four voices because the tone deaf singers of today can't do it, not even with their pitch controllers.

I mean just think ,they could even cheat by using their harmony machines and play the intricate chord structure and learn and practice what the harmony machine produces and innovate. It too hard, too cold, too hot, Oops I'm getting confused with the hired help I use to get to lay brick in 103 degrees or 22 degrees. Sorry about that! I'll now try to get back on track, OK!

It’s obvious that these vocalist knew chord theory inside out, upside down, over, and out. Ha ha! This means that they weren't just entertainers. They were true musicians first, that knew every chord voicing that is possible to structure, right?

I'm sure that they knew more then the four chords that DonM, Gary and I know. It must be so. They probably used the piano to figure out the voicing.

Can you imagine how these fellows felt having to move over for the C, Am, F, (orDm) G chord structure Do Wopper groups? They had to be pissed.

Don’t forget this is not an argument because I grew up with the Do Woppers and still enjoy them. This post is about putting things into perspective, victims of circumstance or however the intelligent folks here can explain what I’m trying to say.

Come on Chas, Russ everybody. What am I trying to say here eh? Listen to these true vocalist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=teuQEoeWPpA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=pFRW_yqsFHU&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n2BUZtD688&feature=related

These tunes are a little complex and the harmony is very intricate.

The Do Wop folks capitalized on familiarity and a changing audience.

Some think economics was involved. With the growth of American manufacturing came higher disposable income for workers with less education.

Television was "dumbed down" (remember Steve Allen, Dave Garroway and others?) as the medium got less costly. that affected programming. Some think the same thing happened to music.

Whatever happened, both formerly popular kinds of music have a place in music history and, I'm sure, in the musical careers of lots of us here.

Of course, there was some interesting crossover between these two styles over time, but that's a subject for a different day.


Russ

This is known as "The Lick." Look at all the different guys hitting this lick in different genre's of music. It's crazy.
I really believe that I'm not the only one who's nuts.

How long did it take to put this together?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krDxhnaKD7Q

Me, too! Sounds like many great minds are joined at the hip LOL!

R.

boo ... great stuff, great talent, no doubt about it ...
BUT we are not comparing apples to apples when we compare The Four Aces and The Four Freshman to the Doo Wop groups ... As far as the Freshman are concerned, two of them got together while studying at Jordan Conservatory - the music school of Butler University ... they then were taken under the wing of Stan Kenton !!! ... do you think they had some harmony and theory training under him?!? ... I don't know where the Four Aces may have studied, but they were all musicians before they became vocalists ... think that helped with them developing harmonies that other groups might not have been familiar with? ... and as for the vid clip of the Four Aces, I won't even go into the seven back up singers they have - which admittedly, they did NOT have during their popular days ...

Now, how many of the Doo Wop groups of the 50s do you think had the kind of schooling and musical background of the Four Aces or Four Freshman? - I would venture to say, let's see ... about NONE ... most of these groups were kids off the streets who made one recording and done ...

I understand what you are saying about the fact that the Aces and Freshman were 'bumped' by lesser talented groups, but I think we were at a time when 'simple' was better ...

BTW, when our band did doo wop, I actually would interject some M7 or M6 harmonies where possible, just to give it a little better sound ...

As for that 'lick' ... are you telling me that all jazz players do is play the same notes over and over ???

Just some 'food' for YOU to chew on ...

Tony the main point I'm making is just comparing how the Jazz instrumentalist were frustrated and that at the same precise time it happened to those vocalist guys too. That's all. I not making any comparison at all. There isn't any comparison. Just stating about the circumstance of the times and the situation.

Man don't knock the Do Woppers to the New Orleans Cajuns. Like Dave said that is where we cut our teeth. Love the Do Woppers.
However, I just can't help but feel sorry for the guys that had spent so much time honing their skills and studying and practice practice practice.

Tony, Russ thanks for commenting. Seems as though this post is going down the drain too.

Are these guys afraid of me? This can't be over their heads can it. It's just about feelings for fellow musicians.

I guess I'm going to have to start posting about how much better my i30 is in styles and sounds compared to all of the other arrangers to wake this group up eh?

Man 10 years now and all we do is want to hear how the other guy's keyboard sounds. I can go to the downtown music store and play and listen to anything I want. 20-30 thousand dollar pianos.

Can't you guys do that? WOW. Hell he even let me hold a $75,000 something or other guitar I wouldn't give him 50 cent for.

It didn't even have a handle to bend a note. How in the hell is a modern day guitar twainer gonna play that? $75.000 they must be crazy. Ha HA

Boo, I think that this was a well thought out and interesting subject. Don't be too discouraged that not many responded. As a horn player, who "lives and dies" playing variations on a lead line and has to understand the elements of harmony, you are far more qualified to talk about this issue, and have far more sensitivity to it.

I ALWAYS go to horn player buddies to figure out intricate harmony lines on projects.

These old dudes were singing the lines you have to understand and appreciate as part of your craft. And, I can see why playing C Am F (or Dm) and G would get really old for a tenor player.

The only thing worse was time when guitar players dominated pop and tenor players had to play in E and A.

The easy fix was to de-tune so E was actually F, but most working rock tenor guys bit their lip and learned to play in E.


But you were there, so I don't have to tell you..


Be well. I enjoyed this post.


Russ

Different strokes for different folks??? ... good effort. boo ...

Coupla things there, Russ. I take your points entirely, but I reckon Getz or any of the greats could take a sow's ear of C Am F G and make a silk purse out of them.

And detuning E to become an F, eh?:) And folks complain about transpose buttons on arrangers.:)

Man, 124, you're certainly right about Getz. One of my all-time favorites. I was a major Bossa fan...still am.


R.

P.S. Some of my favorite songs are C Am F and G (or close) songe....Since I Fell For You, But You Don't Know Me, Lady Blue(similar changes) and lots of others. In NO WAY am i knocking C, Am, F (or Fm)(or Dm) songs.

They paid for graduate school )LOL)!