I decided to start a new thread because Sparky didn't want his thread to devolve into a 'live vs recorded' debate, but it IS an interesting subject that people seem to want to express an opinion about. There are those who think that DJ'ing, KJ'ing, SMF's, backing tracks, and yes, arranger style play, is all okay as long as it gets the job done. Clearly, for this group, being a musician is a secondary consideration. How can one stand in front of a crowd, sing to a prerecorded track and then complain about the dominance of DJ's and KJ's. The only difference I can see is that the DJ/KJ will probably do it better, mainly because the original artist he is 'spinning' probably sings better than the semi-amateur OMB. The truth is, the use of arranger keyboards AS arranger keyboards in a professional setting COULD BE considered one of the things that started us down this transitional road from 'live' bands to DJ's and KJ's. We can continue to delude ourselves into thinking that 'arranger' playing is real playing and that very expensive T4 is not REALLY targeted at well-healed but modestly talented amateurs who lack either the time, the will, or the talent, to learn a 'real' instrument and who demand to sound good with the least possible effort.
I have taken a few shots in the past for expressing my opinion on this subject, with comments like "this is an arranger forum, why do bother to participate?" or some variation of that theme. Usually the label 'purist' will be thrown at you, as though it's a dirty word, if you favor any genre' other than the pablum served up by the 'high counsel', aka 'the good guys', the 'PRO's, the guys 'in the trenches'. The truth is, I like (but don’t LOVE) arrangers. I marvel at the technology, admire the talent of the guys and gals(real musicians all) that produce some of the amazing styles found on some of the keyboards, and can even see a use for them outside the home ie as a ‘sketching’ tool for for quick and dirty arrangements. Although they can (and have) been used successfully in OMB when accompanied by strong vocals, I believe they represent a very small minority in most ‘live’ venues (aside from NH’s and Assisted Living facilities). I would not hesitate to go out to see a singer/guitarist (I just watched a fantastic concert on cable with James Taylor, most of which was just vocals and guitar), or a great solo pianist or pianist/singer, but I would never knowingly go out to see an arranger player, no matter how good the ‘product’ sounded. I like the concept of ‘what you see is what you get’. Likewise, I would never take one to a gig, but then, I only play in jazz venues and jazz is all about playing what’s inside your head. What comes out of an arranger is, to a large degree, what comes out of some else’s head.
If I were planning a wedding today and only had a budget for either a OMB or a DJ, I would choose the DJ without hesitation. At least, what you see is what you get.

chas

Each his own Chas. I marvel at the Yamaha clinicians who use their talents when playing an arranger. I think most audiences would stay till the end of their shows. On the other hand, I passed (2) guitarists playing on a corner the other day and wanted to gag (and gave me a desire to play again). They were doing classic rock but couldn't carry a tune in a bucket and were awful vocalists to boot. So, give me talent and it doesn't matter what they're playing with.

Sadly, those Yamaha clinicians are the exception, not the rule, and even they are, to be perfectly frank, utterly dated and irrelevant to most under the age of 30 (maybe even 40!)...

I do however disagree a bit with chas. I am as willing to listen to virtuosity played on an arranger as much as any other instrument. No need for strong vocals, if the playing is strong enough (not the style, but the REAL playing being made on it). But yes, mostly that's pretty lacking, and relegated to hoary one finger approximations of the original melody, played usually without change on a variety of ill-advised sounds..!

But turn OFF most of what the arranger can do, strip it down to just the drums, maybe the bass line, and play your little brains out over that, and I think the arranger holds itself up pretty well.

I just wish the emphasis here was more about that, than how many OMB/NH gigs you did this week.

Okay, given that some guy playing guitar on a street corner may not be the best example of talent, and that the audiences that YOU are familiar with would stay to the end of an arranger clinic, and that talent trumps all (which I DO agree with), I would still rather hear a super talented person playing solo guitar or solo piano than an arranger. I suspect most musicians would feel the same. Gawd, at what point did we sell our souls?

chas

PS: Diki, great to see you 'alive and kicking'. Hope you'll start to post more. A lot of us really enjoyed some of your reasoned dissertations. I have yet to hear you agree OR disagree with someone without a reasonable, logical, well thought out, argument to back it up. It would be nice to have a little intellectual stimulation here beyond 'who's gigging on New Years Eve?' (or 'OMB or DJ? ).

I'm with DIKI and Zuki on this one Chas. If you can play, I am going to listen. I don't care if it's an arranger. DJ's make me want to puke. They look pathetic IMHO. To me it is like they are saying, "I tried the Trumpet but I couldn't hack it so, I play recordings and BS the public." They (the public) think I'm a musician.' They (the public) are so stupid and drunk and doped up they will never figure it out."

I've said this before. I played with a steel guitar player that could improvise with anyone you can name on straight heads-up jazz. I mean real progressive jazz not "FUNK" only. He made his living playing CW.

Hell, I really, really enjoy listening to DonM do his guitar licks. This is no pun. He's the best at doing this and I can appreciate his talent for accomplishing this, and he does it on an "ARRANGER."

Man if some one can really do something and is exceptional at what he is doing, you have to appreciate it. If you can't, there's no doubt you're shallow. I mean really really shallow.

For example:
I have friends that do art and take 6 months to do what "Bob Ross" does in half an hour and most of the time in that half hour he's tapping and cleaning his brush to change colors. Also to add insult to injury, he can do more with his putty knife on the canvas in 10 seconds than my friends can do with a paint brush in 6 months. They adamantly claim that he is not an artist. You can see the redness and jealousy in their faces when I mention his name.

Some folks got it and some folks don't. Most people will never will be able to do what Dexter Gordon could do if they played sax for 20,000 years, and avoid eating and sleeping and just practice all day. He had it and they never will.

Some of us can sleep all day without even trying. I can't stay in the bed for more than 6-8 hours tops. Some of us have it and most of us don't.
I'm not prejudiced I hate every body.

I agree with some of what Chas and Diki said, but obviously not everything. In my case, I began traveling down my musical road as a rhythm guitar player and singer. I was content to sit in a smoke-filled bar on a stool with my acoustic guitar, Shure mic and a old tube amp singing to drunks that wanted to hear country and 50s rock music. Back then I always thought it was neat to get hit on by good-looking young gals because you were the "star" up there singing their favorite, country love songs.

When Roland came out with a programmable drum machine I was elated. Now I had a drummer, one that could keep perfect time, didn't show up late for the jobs and I didn't have to pay him a dime. The initial cost was about what I was making for two nights of playing, $150. For the next couple years I was king of the hill and booked more jobs than I should have.

It wasn't too many years after that when I was approached by a fellow musician that suggested we get together and form a Doo-Wap band, couple guitar players, drummer, sax player, etc... The band was a blast, we booked lots of jobs, the money was lousy, though. The band remained together for about 5 years, then one day it was all over, I was back in the bars with a guitar, singing to the drunks and sucking cigarette smoke into my lungs. The money was better, but other than switching to a 12-string guitar, I went full circle.

When the local music store got it's first shipment of arranger keyboards I happened to be there buying some new guitar strings. The store's owner, who is among my best friends, said "Take a look at this thing, will you." He was an ex nite-club entertainer who played piano with some the top musicians in this area. He made that arranger really sound great. Back then it was nothing more than an electronic drum machine with a half-dozen right hand voices, the best of which was a cheesy sounding piano. I decided to wait until the next generation came along before taking the plunge. And, I really didn't want to give up my guitars.

When Yamaha came out with the PSR-500 I had to have one. There was a guy performing at the Red Fox Restaurant in Bel Air, MD with one and after watching his performance I knew it was something that I wanted to explore in depth. Two weeks later I purchased the keyboard, and after a year of exploring all the possibilities it had to offer, I ventured out to the same, smoke-filled bars where I played guitar and sang and gradually made the transition to an arranger keyboard. Believe me I was scared to death, but the audiences loved it. From that point on I never looked back.

To me, an arranger keyboard is just another instrument. It's a wonderful instrument that allows you to perform any way you want. It can be used as a drum machine while you play guitar, a piano, or any other, single instrument. And, while most of the onboard styles are based upon specific songs, they are generic enough that they can be applied to a multitude of songs.

I'm not remotely close to the musicianship of many of the forum members, and I'll be the first to admit it. I only know three of the four chords Don Mason knows, and I'm not sure about them. My saving grace has always been my vocals, which some may say are outdated because I don't sing like the youngsters on American Idol, etc... I sincerely believe that Diki is right on the money when he stated "Turn OFF most of what the arranger can do, strip it down to just the drums, maybe the bass line, and play your little brains out over that, and I think the arranger holds itself up pretty well." In my case, though, I sing my little brains out.

Cheers,

Gary

[quote=travlin'easy." In my case, though, I sing my little brains out.

Cheers,

Gary [/quote]


That's nice Gary

That I'M familiar with? lol

Okay, that WAS a slight. Sorry.

chas


PS: You know how I hate it when someone disagrees with me .

From music to politics...economics to religion, Chas and I are generally joined at the hip.

Here, there's a slight bump. As a traditional jazz player, he never uses an arranger for performance. I'm a generalist (a music sell-out/whore, in many ways). While I really want to play jazz all the time, I'm really not into starvation.

Occasionally, I do use arrangers for performance. Last week overseas, I used the Korg Micro, I bought to travel with and write film score roughs for a last minute cocktail party.

Mostly, I use them for film score roughs and, occasionally, when there is no budget, for a completed small score or jingle.

There are few arranger players around Lexington and the ones
I know are really lame.

I think they (arrangers) are valuable for use as tools, but it's unwise to use them as crutches.

Thankfully, my jobs really vary. In September, for instance, I'm revising "Faux Diddley", my alter ego, complete with pork pie hat, motor scooter (gonna drive it onto the stage)and rectangular shapped Gretsch Diddley style guitar. Will be a 4 night series with an area philharmonic (I've done it twice before).

I mean, think of it! He's my hero...8 million selling hits, all in the key of "E"...no changes...all about his D***!

He's my hero LOL!


Be well, folks,


Russ