Thinking of switching KORG Pa500 for Roland BK5 thoughts?

pros

cons

If I was gigging as often, and for as long a time, as you are, Donny, I'd get myself a proper top end arranger and not muck about with entry level gear.

You love the Korg sound and are familiar with the OS, so why not get yourself a PA3X?

Didn't DonM have one for sale?

Maybe it's still available?

Ian

PS...if you are needing on-board speakers...the BK5's are pretty dismal.

Isn't this all vaguely familiar?

Donny rapidly goes through a slew of different arrangers, constantly asking everyone what they think about this or that (despite his professed view that he doesn't really care anything about what we might think anyway) and then ends up back on a Yamaha mid-line after touting everything he gets as absolutely fantastic, WAY better than what he had, only to sell it shortly afterwards!

Save yourself a LOT of work, Donny, and just wait for the PSR S950 to come out. You are going to be on it eventually, no matter WHAT you get in the meantime.

Deja vu all over again...

Thank everyone for all the opinions it is greatly appreciated...I will be demonstrating the Bk5 next week at Fran's studio...

Yeah, like Ian said a PA3x would be seem like a perfect fit for Donny. But money is a factor so I'm kind of considering the BK5 or PA 500. Here's a few thoughts:

BK5 is menu driven- for example there's no botton for transposing (bummer)

BK5 looks a lot more "pro" than the PA500, plus the BK5 is more compact, thinner, lighter.... I think most people now days want to get away from big,bulk things. Not that the PA 500 is a big beast but the BK5 has a nice "sleekness" about it.

Isn't the PA 500 something like 6 years old? I would think Korg would come out with something new sometime soon? Not that newer is better but I wouuld think that the BK 5 has some newer technology that the PA 500 hasn't. I don't really know what I'm talking about so I shut up now.

Good luck!

I think it is definitely time for Korg to adopt the four fill system from the PA3X into ALL its arrangers. It is long overdue, Yamaha and Roland have had this for at least 8 years or so...

And while they are at it, how about the Chord Sequencer?!

TBH, at least on AUTO-FILL, there really isn't any reason why the OS's of the mid-price line couldn't be updated to allow for the extra fills. But I imagine Korg would make more money bringing out a new model.

Maybe not with utterly new features that other arrangers don't have, but when you are playing catch up to even low end arrangers from other manufacturers, I don't think it pays to restrict something like the 4 (or 5 if you count Break/Fill) fill system to ONLY the TOTL arranger.

Thanx Paul....I went the Totl route a few times.....it doesnt change anything for my needs....I can sound hst as good on mostly any arranger.....navigation is morebut important to me....the Pa500 does a super job on stage for me as predicted...but lacks a few features that the Bk5 has and vica versa. Imo to spend 3k on an arranger kb in this day and age is a waste of money.

I agree 100%......well, 98%. I can see spending 3k on a kb, just not every couple of years. I think Gary, Diki, Boo, TonyMads, and Fran (more or less } have the right idea. Find something you like and then squeeze every ounce of juice out of it. If you're a working pro, which by definition means you're not rich, it's just a poor business practice to keep unnecessarily changing kb's. It hurts your bottom line AND creates a lot more work constantly trying to recreate an already successful act on new and different equipment.

Soooooo, kick the habit. Learn how to maximize the potential of the gear you already have and use the time you spend reading equipment reviews to polish up your act. And take some Gaviscon for the GAS (gear acquisition syndrome - for the uninformed ).

chas

Chas,... just goes to show you that pro players can use OLD Kb's and make them sound great years after the longevity is over...this is due to TALENT as a Player.....many people think TOTL = Sounding better ...not so in my book.....bad players just sound terrible on any gear no matter how much they believe they can spend hoping the KB will magically turn them into Liberace or Yanni, or Keith Emerson......TOTL is not a replacement for Talent. First learn how to play ...then buy TOTL.
BTW try a few drops of Beano if you have gas..

BEANO

Yeah, I meant BEANO. I just couldn't think of the name of it.

chas

A lot depends on your NEEDS...

I must admit, my needs have always been a bit skewed to most here. I want a GREAT arranger, but I also want a GREAT WS too. And I would prefer them both to be the same piece of gear..! Less to have to lug around, less to have to learn differently, if your arranger and WS are from different manufacturers, less to obscure you while you play.

For basic arranger/WS use, I think I have found the best keyboard so far, but there ARE starting to be some things either now or on the horizon which might finally do a better job. Plus, I think I've wrung my G70 reasonably dry!

But I think I'm still hopeful something ground-breaking will come out, the final mind-meld of the arranger and the WS/Looper/Arpeggiator, so I am in no frantic rush. The PA3X76 is about the closest thing so far, but without Karma, it still falls pretty short compared to the Kronos. There is also much I like in the Ketron's OS - an albeit basic arpeggiator, but an arpeggiator nonetheless, key triggered phrases, audio streaming, Break/Fills for each Variation etc., but they need to up the bar on the audio track feature before it isn't simply a great idea, incompletely realized.

You know, in the long run, the thing that, at least on the arranger side makes for the greatest longevity for me has been the editing and style creation tools. I honestly think most of us end up looking for another arranger because we get bored with hearing the same styles over and over and over again! But if you have idiot-proof, mind-blowingly simple tools in the arranger to quickly change the SOUND of a style into something newer, different, fresher, and possibly have something like the SRX expansion slots so you can add in in utterly new sounds without chucking the whole arranger away, you can avoid this boredom factor in a big way.

My Roland's Cover Tools (which can quickly revoice an entire style to be, for instance, more electro-pop or more acoustic in nature with one button press) and the Makeup Tools which allow you to edit the Style's headers in an utterly easy and intuitive and QUICK way have made for contentment over the long haul more than anything.

Struggling or having to work hard to achieve this tends to make you not do it, and simply go look for the latest model (where someone else has already done this work!)! It's an often overlooked, under-appreciated aspect of an arranger, IMO.

Sadly, both the Korg and the Ketron both fall way short of the Roland in this area. So, I keep my old behemoth, and wait patiently....

And wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... and wait...

Kronos with a PA arranger engine...now THAT would be just about nirvana!!!

Amen... but they are still going to have to address that button layout!

Even then most people are still not satisfied.

And what does the BK 5 have that the PA500 don't have? Seems to me that the BK5 don't have alot of things the Korg PA500 have for example pads and a decent sequencer.

Sound... Admittedly, I haven't heard a BK-5, but I have a BK-7, and it can sound as good as a PA3x for much of the styles. Amazingly live sounding drums, fat bass, great pianos, far better guitars than my G70...

PA500 is still older technology, PA2 era or earlier, right? 80 voices as opposed to 128. Older sounds and no guitar modes, right? Pads, yes... Roland need to wake up and smell the coffee. But who is doing serious sequencing in an arranger these days? You use a DAW and transfer the file... But the BK-5 has the Roland's typically first class editing tools to fine tune the sequence or style, something still not as well developed on Korg's (and WAY important, IMO).

And people not being satisfied with what they have has taken us from the plains of Africa to our modern lifestyles, health and longevity. Since when was that ever a BAD thing?!

I was thinking about buying a BK 5 but after hearing it in the music store a few days ago I have changed my mind. Don't come even close to the PA3X.

Maby the PA500 is older but sound much better to me. And has a full blown synthesizer onboard.

And Roland BK 5 sound and technology is also old. A little updated GW8 sounds IMO.

Fran so true just played my pa500 on a gig.....it sounds awesome wow! Will prob stick with Korg.......too many good things!

Yes Donny you will regret it if you switch to the BK 5. Stick with the BEST

Exactly Fran........Korg all the way!!

Frans, I remember you stating several times on this forum how much you loved your Korg PA-500, and, I agree, it is a fine entry level keyboard for Korg, having quite a few marvelous features.

You now own a PA3X, which is the top end 61 key model. A few here seem to feel that it is a waste of money to go to the top range model, and Donny actually says,

"Imo to spend 3k on an arranger kb in this day and age is a waste of money."

And...

"TOTL is not a replacement for Talent. First learn how to play ...then buy TOTL."

There's no doubt that you already knew how to play well before you got the PA-500, and you seem like the type of guy who is very careful about spending unnecessary money, so for what other reasons did you upgrade to the PA3X, and do you feel those reasons justify the price difference?

Ian

PS...Did you keep your PA-500, or exchange/sell it?

Hi Ian,

Good question and to be honest I just wanted a TOTL arranger from Korg. I really didn't needed one as I am not a Pro but I could afford one at that moment so I did buy one.

Also I paid a lot less then the PA3X cost now. I wouldn't buy it for 3200 Euro that is to much I think especialy considering what you get with the PA500 and the PA800.

It is great you got a good deal on it, Frans.

What features are on the PA3X that drew you to make the switch? There must have been something about it, that made it appeal to you, instead of a getting PA-800, or staying with the PA-500?

Is there a noticeable difference in sound and in the styles that you feel justifies it over the PA-800/PA-500?

What speaker system are you using?

Congratulations on your PA3X, by the way...it would be my very next choice after the Tyros4, and, if I had lots of money, I'd have them both. I really like the panel layout on the PA3X...very ergonomically done, especially the sliders.

Ian

Has anyone heard both the BK-5 and the BK-7m? I am a little shocked to hear the BK-5 dissed so resoundingly. Can anyone tell me whether the BK-7m is noticeably better than the BK-5? As I said, I've had the PA3X and the BK-7m next to each other, and with regard to the styles and the overall sound, there is much that is quite comparable, IMO.

And, of course, what differences there are are quite expected when comparing a sub-$1000 arranger to a $3000+ one. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion of course, but much is often made of familiarity. If you are used to Korg's, you are going to think that a MOTL Korg sounds better than a BOTL Roland. And, TBH, yes, to me a BOTL Roland is going to sound decent up against a TOTL Korg. But I really try hard to switch off any manufacturer bias, and simply listen to the SOUND, and to the performance of the styles.

Maybe for us diehard users of one type of arranger, familiarity trumps sound? But Donny has gone through a plethora of different manufactures, all with effusive praise while he had them (and isn't exactly what I would call someone with a burning need for a full synth in an arranger!). Then he traded them. And wasn't so effusive any more! Let's face it, Donny wouldn't even be ASKING about alternatives if he were 100% happy and content with the PA500.

So before you all start telling him 'stick with the best' (YOUR idea of the best, not any empirical 'best' by any degree of imagination!) etc., maybe it is just better to let him try, buy, gush and then sell everything? He's going to be back on the next-gen MOTL Yamaha PSR as soon as it comes out anyway.

Just like he always has...!

Donny, thanks for starting this thread. I'm now going to keep my MicroArranger instead of buying a PA500. I'm so used to playing and enjoying my S910 that I don't think I will replace it after all. The PA500 would not give me any more sound versatility than I already have. As a matter of fact, I'm going to experiment using my XK1 with the KMA and maybe alternate rigs instead of looking for something new or different. Thanks for saving me $1000 or more.

Diki,
I owned the BK-7M - liked it a lot and it sounded really great. I sold it because it was difficult for me to use live. I bought the BK-5 and returned it after only 4 days. I was very disappointed in that it in NO WAY sounded as good as the BK-7M. Functionally it was just fine and the keybed suited me. I recorded about 20 songs with the BK-7M and doing a side-by-side comparison of styles and sounds was very revealing. I had no complaints about build quality or button layout- just the overall sound. NOTHING like the BK-7M. My advice for folks is to buy the BK-7M and a really good controller with lots of buttons to assign things to.

Deane

I got the PA3X for 2600 Euro and the PA800 still was 2200 Euro so the choice was easy. Now you can buy a new PA800 for 1700 Euro new a big difference in price. The PA3X does sound better then the PA500 or PA800 but not that much it is worth paying the double price a PA800 cost at the moment. PA500 and PA800 are still great boards and even the 10 years old PA50 still sounds great to me.

I also listen to the new Yamaha PSR s650 in the store last week and this board sound also better to me then the BK-5. I know I have said no Yamaha more for me but maby the new PSR s950 will be my second board if the price is right.

Frans

Cass your welcome.........after reading all this a Korg player I will stay for obvious reasons.......hard too beat....sound, songbook, navigation,Keybed, editing......all combined is closer to my needs on stage at this point.

If you're after different sounds, try an adjunct module- the roland sound canvas or better yet the ketron sd4. Then you can add layers or substitute sounds at will. Both have drum sets too.

I am quite frankly torn between the BK7m and PA3X. I really like both a lot, and there are advantages both ways. I particularly like some of the Roland styles, but then, I also like a lot of the Korg's as well. The Korg as so many great real-time operational features, that it shines in that category, and of course it has great vocal processing.
If the BK7m had a vocal processor it would be ideal.
It's great to have so many good choices, and I don't believe there is a wrong choice.
I did try the BK5 in the music store for maybe 30 minutes, and it didn't seem to sound as good (I was using headphones). Could well be e.q. and setup tweaks were needed though. I also didn't like the user interface. I am able to do so much more with an external controller and the BK7m.
I would not trade my E50 for a BK5. I have played it for the past four nights, while I do some tweaking at home on the Korg, and the audience couldn't care less.
DonM

Don,
I doubt the difference in sound was caused by "tweaking" concerns. While I had the BK-5 I used headphones, played with the built-in speakers, ran it through both of my Bose Compacts and nothing made a big difference in regards to comparing it to the BK-7M I owned. The BK-5 simply did NOT produce the same quality sound as the BK-7M. Now that I know how to properly use and setup a midi controller I am thinking about buying another BK-7M.

Deane

I'm not surprised the BK7m sounds better then the BK5......
but there has to be a good reason that the BK7m module sounds better then the BK5 arranger.. is it price, or something technical inside, sound engine, etc,?...

BK7M sound better than the BK5 ??? I posed this question to what I think are some knowledgeable people including calling Roland Support and what I got are two answers ---"maybe the D/A converters are better on the module" To " there's definately no differance because they both use the same sound engine " No explanation for them being the same price. I wish I knew because I've been kicking this around for awhile.
I'm caught between a good keyboard like a Privia with a BK7M module or the conveinence of an all in one BK5 with the terrible toy keyboard.

I think the Privia with the BK 7m is the best solution. And you have some very good Casio sounds extra.

Bill,
I did not do any recordings with the BK-5 when I had it. But I can assure you the two of them DO NOT sound the same. The BK-7M was far superior. I had both - no doubt in my mind.

Deane

I agree with FransN. That way you have a better sounding engine, better keyboard and Casio sounds thrown in as well. Sounds like a win-win.

I never tried the BK-7m but I sampled the BK-5 in a music store for about a half-hour. The BK-5 sounded fine to me through borrowed headphones--about the same as a GW-8, which I owned for a while. However the on-board speakers are lousy, way inferior to a Yamaha s900 or Roland E-50.

Could the better sounds from the module be due to AFTERTOUCH? If a good controller sends aftertouch messages, the BK-7m can process them, enhancing the sound of at least the Lead voices. However the built-in keyboard of the BK-5 doesn't create aftertouch. The best experiment would be to listen to an SMF in both boards, or play both with an external controller, and through headphones.

Also, I noticed that an OS update was recently released for the BK-5. Recent Rolands have been notoriously buggy, perhaps a consequence of using what seems like different programming teams for each new model. With the recent OS patches, I would now consider one of these. I would like to know what the difference is too. I believe I would miss the lack of a style composer on the BK-7m. Why Roland doesn't release this in software is beyond me! -Ted

Yes, I agree with Nigel and Frans - the Privias are a good bit of kit for the $'s and the action is not too bad either!

For anyone on a budget, a Privia and BK5m would be a killer rig!!

Here are a few differences between the BK7m and the BK5..

First let me mention again,,the BK5 keybed is not toyish..it is shorter key lenght compared to the G70 (half inch)..and is about the same as the PSR and PA keybeds..it is like the Juno G keybeds..and Roland controllers...Not great, but far from toyish...Much better than the mini keys on the little Korg....

Here are important differences between the BK7m and BK5..

The BK5 reads all .kar and .mid lyrics on the internal screen..(the main reason I passed on the BK7m)..

The speakers on the BK5 are okay..12 watts a side and they do not break up at full volume...I have never heard on board speakers that I could use as monitors on stage with a PA system...Studio and home use the BK5 works great..

The difference some folks think they hear, could be the "master tools" settings, and default effects...

I am sure most folks do not know the drums are different between the two models....The BK7m are taken from the G70..The BK5 are from the E80...

The kits sound better on the BK5 because it has the 5 or 6 "new" series drum kits...(new pop, new rock new brush perc etc)..

The tones are from the E80 on both models...

Both models have the "make up tools"...but the BK7m has the "covers" for SMF and styles.....Don't know why they dropped the covers on the BK5..it is a quick realtime change tool.

The lastest update on the BK5 improved the mobility of the operating system on stage...This was on my wish list...it is easier to go to other folders and back to lyric page without extra steps..

The BK5 has a decent search feature for songs etc , where the BK7m will only search performances.....I can scan 32 gigs (my thumbdrive size)..completely in about six seconds and shows the entire list with the search word you looked for..Both SMF and wav/MP3 ...I can even use this when DJing....(I have about 50,000 songs on the thumb drive..).


The GW8 is not the same sound engine as the BK series....The GW8 is the Juno/Sonic Cell engine ( inferior to the BK engine)..

Fran thanx for the explanation I knew you would come thru !!
Next I have to play it in YOUR studio this week and put it thru it's paces just to sooth my curiosity.

The smartest guy in the bunch in my humble view. No offence to anyone but I have always advocated the use of two keyboards of a different brand and I think that a Korg + Yamaha combination is a winner at whichever level. I do think that Cassp's combination of the PSR910 with the Micro is fantastic value for money. I know that Roland folks like Fran may not want to hear this but "the times they are a-changing ......"

regards
John Smies

Schlepping two kbs on a gig is ridiculous day after day.....not needed IMHO FOR A Omb act...

If I had the skill set needed for a OMB act, and wanted an arranger in the mix, I would use my VP770 midi'ed to my BK7m. That would give me access to two sets of Roland voices plus some 'insane' vocal possibilities. With a little programming effort, the VP770 makes a half way decent controller for arranger duties. What about it Donny? Would a keyboard and a module be acceptable? Think of it as a compromise solution. BTW, if anyone was willing to dedicate two solid days of checking out a VP770, at least 50% of you (especially OMB's) would have one in your rig. In the top ten of 'most fun' keyboards. Only downside; pricey.

chas

Donny, when we are thinking "I can get by with just this board"...It is true, and for multiple daily 1 hour jobs..maybe it makes sense.....but (You knew that was coming0

If I am doing a "fun" 4 hour job..(fun, meaning enjoying myself, with the right folks on stage with me ..)..I would love to have two keyboards on stage...My logic..my current two arranger keyboards offer the best of everything..and what one lacks the other has ..

When I want my best..I have the G70, offering me the sounds, stage friendly, mic inputs and harmony with all the mixing I need...lacks the MP3/wav play..so I carry a laptop for that, but why not use the BK5...it handles the MP3/wav chores of the laptop...and it gives me a lot of new sounds styles, drum kits etc...besides another keybed for dual manual operation...

Just adding another 16 pounds (25 pounds in the case)...same amount of time to set up as the laptop..It has 32 gigs of MP3's on board(and that is a lot)

Some additional reasoning....One hour gig with the 16 pound BK5..I need a mic with effects..so that would be either the Edirol mixer (and Cube) or BA330 ...Both are efficient...Since I do not play any MP3's on the one hour jobs..it is just as practical to use the G70 and a Cube....for a complete arsenal..

Although the BK5 and G70 are basically the same sound engine..they are different in drums and styles and also a large variety of different tones..

Thankfully I have the options, and any one or combination can do the job

Now if I can figure out how to use my accordion, and Mediastation...in a practical way...

Chas , you are right..but you will never convince anyone other than a Roland user to try the VP series....they believe what other non users say..and won't listen to you...

The one draw back to me is only 49 keys...yes I know "we can get by with 49"....but even 61 would be so much better...

I have given consideration of adding the VP7 to the BK5...a reverse of your suggestion....Yes the VP770 is superior over the VP7...but it would function well with the BK5..

Modules Chas...midi hookups?......don't get me started....no way Jose!!!

Donny, You change keyboards quite frequently which tells me you do not get into the many options that they offer. You say you can make it on any keyboard and I believe that so changing keyboards is not a big task for you. I’m betting you become tired of the same type of sounds and styles so changing keyboards takes care of that problem for a while.

When you get a new keyboard it is always the best -- excitement -- new sounds – new styles, and there ain’t anything wrong with that. So do make the change and satisfy you. I spend a great deal of time getting into the depths of a keyboard but after a time (much longer than you) I’m glad to see it go. My deep down desire, and I’m guessing yours to, is to get what you will never get from a keyboard – and that’s sounding live. They do come close, but they do miss the mark.

My only thought is that Korg offers a lot of drive for your audience, you may miss that. But you can always sell the BK5 and buy the next thing you fall in love with, (smile) Life is good, go do it.

John C.

Tuesday.....after my morning gig lunch and a Pro Bk5 demo at Fran's studio..!! To be continued..........

Did you take a look in at the settings of each Master Tools, Fran? Are you guessing they are different, or do you know?

I can assure everybody that there ARE the E80 drumkits in a BK-7m (you must have missed them somehow, Fran) including the New Pop, New Folk, New BrushPop, NewPBrushPerc, New Pop Perc, New Rock, plus several more ethnic kits. They aren't in the Manual, which is why you need to actually MESS with them a bit, Fran! v1.06 update added a couple of Greek Kits, too.

These new kits are one of the primary reasons I got this unit. They push the styles from already being lively into new dimensions of great feel and exceptional liveness.

Until I get them side by side, I guess I am just going to have to guess, but if I were a betting man, having had the G600 and the G1000 next to each other back in the old days, I would guess that Roland are doing their usual trick (and most manufacturers do this too) of squeezing the compression harder on the samples (more samples in less memory, shorter loops, less multisamples) and using lower price and quality D/A converters on BOTL gear. On IDENTICAL patches on the G600 compared to the G1000, there was a noticeable drop in sound quality, a sort of 'brittleness' and lack of 'life' and whole styles felt brighter and thinner.... Just a hair, but noticeable, nonetheless.

I guess, with the BK-5 and BK-7m being comparably priced, Roland had to cut SOMETHING to add speakers, a keybed and a full case. But I am sad to hear it is the sound quality. And the Cover Tools. I find these of great value squeezing extra mileage out of styles with the minimum of effort. Thank God they didn't drop the Makeup Tools is all I can say!

Oh well...

I found my info in the manual..The G70 and BK7m share the same drum sets....and the BK5 shares the same as the E80...Here are the pages from each manual..

Diki, I am not convinced the sound quality does not measure up to the BK7m...The Bk5 sounds great to me..I have a pro player friend that played the BK5 and said it was a lot better sound than the Prelude...(I already knew that)....So other players can tell it is quality sound....

I have not played the two units side by side...so I can not swear there is no difference....

I did play the E-60 and G70 side by side, and yes there was a difference between common tones...as you mentioned, most likely sample size or converters..

Fran thanx for explaining all this for us...

Just came from a visit to the toy store (Sam Ash-Edison NJ). Disappointed they did not have a pa500 or 800 to try out. They have a pa50, and an owner's manual sitting on top of it. That's because the guys there didn't know much about the navigation. I got the hang of it after a while, and it didn't sound bad making me more curious about the others. They did have a PA3X there and it was terriffic, except- the matte finish keytops was like a coating of wax paper to me, and they were a bit heavy. But loved the sounds/rhythms.

Tried the Roland BK5. At first, I hated the sounds until I took the advice of the brotherhood here and ran it through a KC550 while toning down the treble a bit. This filled out the sounds with the bass just above mid point, the midrange flat, and the treble slightly under midpoint. The strings filled out as did the saxes. But as was said, those speakers have to go. Navigation was simple; rhythms were a little thin to me in that they didn't seem flowing or smooth. It seemed that some were done very well and others not so just to fill up the menu, even on the highest variation level. Keypad felt better than the PA50.

Then it was the psr910 which I have played before. Superior sounds, particularly the ensembles for Big Bands, etc. Could use a thicker alto sax for me, but it may just need tweaking. Loved the rhythms, especially the accompaniment in the higher variations. And liked the much maligned keypad the best out of all. I have a heavy touch and it suits me. Smoother than the rest too..but it is an unfair comparison as it is not in the 1k price range. Would have liked to try a psr710. Lucky they have what I did get to try.

My 2 cents. Anybody have the psr710?

Didn't they have the new Yamaha PSR S650? Almost the same price as the BK-5.

I didn't notice it, but the PSR650 goes for $799USD and has no midi connectivity according to the description I read. The Roland BK5 is $999USD. The PA500 $1,099USD, the PA50 $899USD. The Yamaha PSR710 is $1,099USD. these are the most copmmon prices amongst retailers here.

That's cheap for the Yamaha. Yamaha's cost a lot more here in the Netherlands while Korg and Roland are cheaper. For example I can buy a Roland BK-5 for 763 Euro and a PSR S650 cost 819 Euro. Very strange.

As I said, Fran.... the kits aren't in the manual... BUT THEY ARE IN THE BK-7m!

Never take manuals as Gospel.

Could the "New" kits been added with a new OS update?

I don't believe the manual was wrong...so my guess is they added the kits at a later date....

We are looking for the reason..the BK5 should be more money than the BK7m...maybe it is as simple as ..the return on research and development..another year plus...could bring down the cost...

The demand for a module also could have brought a higher price for the BK7m....the BK5 may need to be more competitive..price wise.

I know I prefer the benefits of the BK5 over the BK7m...at the same price point..

John,
Pretty soon all boards will be equal to the i30.
Couldn't pass this up. I wanted to but, "the devil made me do it." LOL

No Fran. Those kits were in the BK-7m from day 1. But the current PDF manual (BK-7m_e2.pdf) STILL does not mention them. The addendum for v1.06 maps out the two new Greek kits (which WERE added), but still nothing for all the great E80 kits. Sloppy.

Roland's technical manual writing staff has gotten more and more sloppy. They used to be the industry standard for comprehensiveness, exhaustive sys-ex implementations and exacting correctness.

But lately, the details are getting lip service at best.

Mind you, compared to Korg or Yamaha, their manuals are still pretty good, but they aren't as good as they used to be..!

Yes, the E80 kits are in the BK7m, and have been since its introduction.
DonM

Something came up which made me cancel my BK5 demo at Fran's studio the other day so I am still looking forward to doing so very soon probably next week sometime.......but I appreciate the comments to this Posting from everyone... I have done extensive editing work on my Pa500 to get it to where I am satisfied at this point for stage performances week after week, more so then any other Arranger I have owned in recent years......BUT,......after all is said and done the intensive "homework" was well worth it in many ways. It now sounds amazing for my needs, factory and converted styles are tweaked to perfection,...the Songbook is a performers dream come true on stage, & keybed, navigational & editing capabilities in real time & in studio are very sufficient to suit my needs at this time to create the type of sound I want..I only use the Pa500 in real time style play 99% of the time.....conjoined with a laptop when needed for Mp3 backing tracks I record with the Pa500 also, or my DJ work, and Mixer with Fx for Vocals........I'll give the BK5 a good tryout but, my expectations are low if it will compete as equal to what I am using now,..........stand by...

Hi Donny- could you please educate me on this feature? What does it do?

Thanks!

Paul, the Korg "songbook" is similar to Roland's "User programs"...It retains all the panel settings, and links to SMF's..If the board has a mic input and harmonizer , such as the G70 and PA3x..it will remember those settings too..

You can name the songbook to specific names...

Unlike Yamaha.the songbook can retain all info including transpose also...

The engine in the PA3x is just fine for me ... I LOVE the sounds - it's as good as anything I hear around.

+1 Dave Kronos/Pa3x combo....awesome !!!...

KORG has it going on big time now!!

Hi Paul....

The SongBook is an on-board database that allows you to organize various “musical resources” (Style, Standard MIDI Files, KAR files) for easy retrieving. The SongBook mode overlaps the Style Play and Song Play operating modes. When you select an entry from the database, the Style Play or Song Play mode is automatically selected, depending on the type of file associated with the entry. In addition to helping you organize your shows, the SongBook allows you to associate four Pads, and up to four STS to each Standard MIDI File, played back in Song Play mode. This way, it is easy to recall a complete setup for Keyboard tracks and effects, for real-time playing over a midi-file.

I just wish i could put my hands on a pa500. I was totally disgusted today when I went to Guitar Center and the best arranger they had was a Yamaha 433 for $250. Same at another I called. But there was a jungle of synths and workstations, and a separate room for electric pianos. Same at Sam Ash across the highway. The other Sam Ash store I went to (their flagship store) at least had the Roland bk5 and a Korg pa50, pa3x, and Yamaha psr910.

Good news though- we're getting a new Guitar Center in Bridgewater NJ in October- next town over from me.. Bad news is they won't have what I want either.