Hi Rikki, I have not checked but I will, thanks

Dennis

It's good to hear everybody's different takes on all this.

Personally, I would think that if anyone is looking for a budget arranger, look at what you have to buy to use vArranger software only. For starters, a MIDI controller. And a MIDI controller with a boatload of controls on it, because without these, you are flying blind. Then a decent laptop (in fact, a better than decent one if you want to run a few power hungry VSTi's on it), a decent quality audio interface, a decent MIDI interface (multi-output if you want to split the tracks between a couple of different external modules or existing keyboards) and probably a fast external HD (because things like Giga-Sampler or most of the newer VSTi's are HUGE in size and really need a decent speed HD to load up quickly). Then the VSTi module itself, which can vary from bloody naff sounding free soundfonts to superb TOTL monsters that cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

Cabling to hook it all up, and decent speakers.

No offense, but there are HARDWARE arrangers that can be got for well under $1000 (including s/h versions of many of the last or last-but-one TOTL models) that can sound absolutely brilliant with absolutely ZERO effort.

So far, other than Dennis, most seem to want to run this through some legacy VSTi that barely approaches the quality of an utterly BOTL sound module from 20 years ago! I am amazed! People are GIVING AWAY twenty year old arrangers. Good ones, at that!

For me, I guess, this is the current sticking point. Even budget arrangers like the BK-7m or BK-5, or the Korg Micro-arrangers etc. utterly blow these dinky old Sound Canvas era VSTi's out of the water! And when you add up all the peripherals to run vArranger (if you don't already have them), you are going to end up out of pocket, sounding like you bought an old G600 rather than a new Tyros!

I honestly 'get' vArranger. I think it is the future... But at the moment, I think that the soundsources it plays have a LONG way to go to match hardware reliability and overall quality and especially, QUALITY OF INTEGRATION. An arranger's soundset isn't just a collection of sounds. That what so many often miss. It is a collection of sounds, exquisitely balanced to be almost seamlessly interchangeable.

Change a flute sound to a clarinet sound in an arranger style. Odds are, you won't have to go and alter the volume or brightness. Change a brush kit into a sticks kit, odds are you don't have to go and mess with each drum's individual velocities, or volumes, etc.. Change an acoustic piano into a Rhodes, it's a one button procedure.

We all rely on this every day. We all rely on it working, and it does it so well we don't even THINK about it any more. And we rely on several thousand sounds and drumkits doing it (in most modern arrangers, there are thousands of different sounds, not just 128 GM MIDI Capitol sounds). Until you start working with VSTi's. Then you realize just how much work went into balancing your arranger's soundset!

So, this, more than anything else, is why I am trying to get Dan more interested in leveraging existing modules (I'd LOVE a BK-7m setup file!) and even more importantly, the current crop of TOTL WS's (remember, you budget conscious players out there - most TOTL WS's are FAR less expensive than TOTL arrangers, and have FAR greater capabilities) than in going down what I consider a dead end of VSTi integration before the VSTi exists to make this easy.

We have been LONG envying and talking about WS arp and loop capabilities, how they can sound utterly fresh and contemporary, how things like Karma can add randomized elements to static soundscapes, etc., how they appeal to younger players and many of us older player, but we ALL bitched about how unfriendly they are for producing anything OTHER than strict loop music. The arranger paradigm of Variations, Fills, Intros and Endings, all logically tied together and sync'd so that one flows musically to the next is utterly missing from WS's. Here is the tool to add it...

Please don't turn this into a cheap soundalike of decades old arrangers, Dan. Turn it into the FUTURE, not into the past!

+1 Diki

All valid points, however if Dan was to integrate Kontakt (For example) into his arranger, then he could set it up and balance all the voices to suit, thus it becomes as balanced as any hardware arranger, but with vastly superior sound.

The problem comes (As has been mentioned) if you try and Mix and Match as the designer doesn’t know what to set the arranger up for.

Dan, if you can integrate a high quality VSTi then go for it, just make sure you have full control over it, and are prepared to put many hours into getting the balance right.

As to overloading a decent modern computer, then you would have to be working in a studio to get to the limits, whereas arranger play is quite simple so would not be so much of a problem.

In addition, just like new cars have more features and performance then older cars, they also have much improved fuel economy due to the more efficient use of resources; the same applies to VSTi, where modern versions can do more with less computing power.

Bill

Hi Diki
basically your ideas sound great.

Visions of what V Arranger should or could be.

Dan's got his little niche market, & he's great with trying to give us users what we think we need.

Ideas can sometimes become too grand, & the whole thing fizzles out & dies.

Just ask Dennis about OSL Project. Approx 2 years of hard work. If memory serves me correctly, Dennis first hinted about it round about the time rumours about the PA3X started appearing. I became involved for a few months about a year ago
( only in a small way ) and unfortunately the project for whatever reason has fizzled out. Really sad.

Dan's VArranger has started out fairly basic & it's expanding.
I'm confidant, Dan knows his target market and he knows what he's doing.

Well,
I tried my gm/gs soundfonts for the Roland styles. My soundfonts suck. I've got Freebie Banks as well as banks I paid reasonably good money for.
I think I was looking back on them with Rose Colored Glasses.
The TTS1 sounded better than the fonts. Also the softsynth (coyote something or other) that comes with Band in a Box sounded better than the fonts. Only problem is I don't think it has all the gm2 drum sets.
Decided not to bother trying to sort thru & set up the ketron or Yammie ones. Quality probably wouldn't be any better than my GM banks.

My SD2 on the other hand, sounded pretty good with the few Roland styles I tried to date.

[quote=rikkisbears]


Hi Diki,
I have soundsets for Ketron & Yamaha. Admitedly they're only soundfonts, but I probably could get them to work reasonably well.

This is what utterly defeated Dom at Lionstracs. Even monster VSTi's like Colossus don't have the comprehensiveness of sounds you find in even a modest arranger like a BK-7m. Not to mention, you are going to have to have pretty close equivalents for ALL the Variation sounds in EACH arranger your vArranger plays the styles of. That's over a thousand for probably every arranger out there, and other than the basic Capital sounds and the major GS/XG variations, they are ALL DIFFERENT!

And that isn't even STARTING to address how you are possibly going to have ALL these sounds loaded up in RAM, because playing an arranger is improvisational in nature... you are playing one tune, want to medley into another, are you going to be happy while the whole thing goes dead while it loads up the sounds for the next style? Hell no!

vArranger works wonderfully with the Ketron module. The next step is to have it work wonderfully with something like the BK-7m, or Korg Micro Arranger, or an S910 (so those with one kind of arranger can play styles easily from other makers). Then the NEXT step is to have it work well with MoXF/S's, FantomG's, Jupiter80's, JunoDi's, etc.

Then the NEXT step is to have it work well with the Kronos and M3, and integrate into the Karma functions, too!

And the FINAL step... once you have addressed the needs of everybody THAT ALREADY HAS A SOUNDSOURCE AS GOOD AS A TOTL ARRANGER, then you can spend your time tilting at the windmill of VSTi integration, and the 'all in the laptop' arranger.

Bill, your suggestion that Dan use Kontakt then 'set it up and balance all the voices to suit' fails to address just what a HUGE task that is you just casually tossed out.

HI Diki

What you are asking for is for Dan to design his arranger software to work with multiple sound engines, and quite honestly this would take a team of dedicated engineer’s ages to achieve, (Not forgetting the constant updates that would be required as manufactures updated their sound engines) and to be quite honest is not a practical solution.

If you only have 1 sound engine to work with, then the time to balance everything up is considerably reduced, and it becomes like a hardware arranger (IE fully integrated) rather than a universal arranger. (Jack of all trades, master of none)

Regarding loading voices when changing styles, then this is a non-issue, as most hardware arrangers have about 1000 voices, and that amount can easily be loaded into memory at start up, (Ram is cheap, and SSD are dropping in price so fast that speed and storage will have little relevance)

Bill

Hi Guys

I think you may have missed one minor point, wheras an SD2 will probably play back a roland style quite well, ( the few I've tried to date , sound quite good ) a Roland soundsource will not play back a Ketron style that uses Live Drums ( ie sd1 styles ). My impression has been that Roland only has the the one drum track?? not percussion & drum like Korg, Yamaha, Ketron??
Even if it has 2 drum tracks, Live Drum tracks are not easy to duplicate. I recently converted one of my favourite SD1 styles Slow Orch to PA3X using VArranger to create the midifile for my conversion. Discovered the Brush Live Drum kit it used consisted of at least 40 or so different types of brush swishes taps, hits etc and the style used about 20 of them. Basically the kit is like a sliced loop. For me personally I'd be able to play the style using the sd2 for the Live drums, even went to the extent of trying to create a Live Drum Kit from my sd2 Soundfonts, but in the endI decided to redo the track completely.




vArranger works wonderfully with the Ketron module. The next step is to have it work wonderfully with something like the BK-7m, or Korg Micro Arranger, or an S910 (so those with one kind of arranger can play styles easily from other makers). Then the NEXT step is to have it work well with MoXF/S's, FantomG's, Jupiter80's, JunoDi's, etc.

With the worries that some have expressed about having to load sounds between styles, I thought I would post an item that I posted earlier on in the year, (And may have been missed by some) and it regards a new prototype that Wersi (Music Store) showed at the Frankfurt Musikmesse this year. (And was scheduled for possible release later this year, although no actual time frame was given)

As can be seen from the spec sheet, not having enough voices directly available to the user (No loading time) is a non-entity, and while it will probably be a few years before the technology is available in affordable Arranger Keyboards, (Although probably not as long as most think) it does show how manufactures are thinking. (Remember the Kronos is basically a pre-set (Determined by the manufacturer) VST player which has an OS that integrates everything together with other features.

Here is the link: https://www.box.com/s/698424b2822b604bc215

NOTE: Google Translate is not 100% so there may be slight errors in the translation

Bill