....and instead of "all the food you could eat," they offered you "all the speakers you could play through?"

I went to a German Festival tonight....sat there and watched the band. Worst band (or close to it) I ever heard. Like something out of your worst reality TV show!

The accordion player sang out of key and nowhere near his proper vocal range, the rhythm guitarist forgot to change chords, and even the bass player played wrong notes. The music coming out of the speakers was just a big blur. I couldn’t even make out the beats.

What they DID do, though, was sing a lot of eeeeeee-ah’s, yodel here and there, and whip them up into a frenzy doing Ein Proseit. But the people were dancing up a storm. I was the odd one out actually listening (it’s a curse being a musician).

I sat there and thought about everything. The first thing I thought, obviously, was....why bother practicing every day? People really don’t really care about the quality of music, only the “volume“ and the “excitement.” But....that’s OK with me....if that’s the way it is, then that’s the way it is.

Then I remembered years ago, I went to a local bar to see a friend playing. Before I got in the room, I was listening to someone playing I Will Survive. I thought they put a band in that night, but it was my friend playing a new keyboard setup. Controller keyboard working a rack of modules and a left hand bass going through a huge JBL bass bin. Everything amplified by a big watt Crown amp. What a sound he had!

So my next thought was: I was wondering what my PA3x (or a Tyros or Audya) would sound like if I had all that amplification on it. Bass going through a separate channel and into something like 20 bass bins. Drums coming out of their own output and EQ'd on the mixer. Then speakers all over the stage for the main sound. Of course, I’m exaggerating, but I’m thinking would I sound as big as that band tonight if I did do something like that? Which leads to....I’m wondering how close you can come to competing with a band (or many bands) like I was watching tonight if you were a very skilled one-man-band (“power player?”) using enough speakers.

Mark

What you witnessed at the German Festival was probably fueled as much by alcohol and the 'festival' atmosphere as by the band's volume and antics. If a 'bad' jazz group tried that in a jazz club, the 'excitement' you'd see would be the band getting tossed out on it's rear to a chorus of boos. You simply can't apply the experience of one music situation to another. Sheer volume can be as much of a negative as a positive, depending on the venue and the degree of appropriateness. Volume alone has little meaning until framed in context, and is certainly no guarantee of generating audience participation or excitement.

To me, the key isn't LOUD but clarity. Volume should always be just what is appropriate for that specific situation, but CLARITY (as in QUALITY of sound) is ALWAYS in order.

It may not be possible (or practical) to have the perfect (sound) rig for every musical venue so it's probably best to just get the best possible speakers that will best amplify the instruments in YOUR rig (including vocals)......then add 10% (if optimum turns out to be 1000w power amp and 12" speakers, get 1500w and 15's - okay, not exactly 10% but you get the idea).

......and finally, if you're going out specifically to listen to music, stay away from German Festivals.

chas

First of all glad it wasn't us (we didn't play last night). Clarity is key. That's why I use EV's. I play through the pa and actually bought the system after hearing a friend use it. He plays a t-2 and runs the bass through a separate channel into his mixer. But you have a point. I have lost work at a particular venue because the "other guys" jump around the stage, hoot and holler, and have lights flashing all to engage the crowd. Musically and vocally they are way off. But some club owners want the show and not the go.Nothing you can do unless you can do both...oh, and they were cheaper than us too..

Chas- Don't knock the festivals, or the music, or the musicians- I make money there...and we don't drink on the gig....everybody does their own thing and I don't begrudge anyone their style of music as I would not want them to do the same. I have an excellent group of musicians; we have been playing music for 40+ years since we were kids (not together ). My trumpet player also does classical and has traveled all over the world performing both that and German folk music. My bass player has played for several professional touring bands over the years ,etc. You do yours- we do ours..........

Got it........LOUD AND CLEAR.

I wasn't putting down German Folk music. Mark said that he went there as a 'listener' and I suggested that perhaps the carnival-like atmosphere that surrounds most ethnic folk festivals might not be the most conducive for strictly listening but was more oriented towards 'merrymaking' and 'less serious' forms of entertainment. And heaven forbid that I suggest that any serious beer drinking might be going on at a German Folk festival.....what the hell was I thinking? And BTW, I was referring to the festival goers, not the band.

In any case, as a relatively junior member, I'm sure you'll be a wonderful addition to the forum. Your closing statement speaks volumes.

chas

You may be surprised to know we do other forms of music. Oldies, some common pop tunes, big band and swing, etc. sure there are some groups who are simply hokey and managed to get paid. Like any other form of music you can't paint everybody with a broad brush.

Yes I am a junior member. And I belong to other forums as a senior member. Neither status gives me or anybody else the right to walk on anybody else, or takes away the right to defend yourself. With all due respect, I'm glad you understand.

I'll admit I may be wrong here; are senior members here granted certain inalienable rights that others aren't? Perhaps Nigel can answer that.

Back to the subject, again I choose Electro-Voice for clarity. SB122 subs and ZX1 satellites. Power amps in the rack. Add Klipsch 15's for big stuff. Everything runs through the mixer. Proper equalization is a must- some ignore this. Even the best speakers can sound crappy if no one pays attention to the eq settings. I back off on the midrange to take the "mud" out. Outdoor venues require different settings than indoor- I find it's just not set it and forget it for all jobs.

Could you point to the specific part of my first post where you were 'walked on'. I think I missed it. In fact, I don't recall mentioning you at all. For the most part, I believe we try very hard to avoid 'us and them' type references when talking about our own membership. Perhaps that's more acceptable on those fora where you're a senior member.

chas

It's not acceptable anywhere. Perhaps I mistook direct speech for sarcasm. I simply interpreted your comments about "less serious forms of entertainment" as a slant against all of those who play this type of venue or music. Perhaps I was wrong to do so. Even as a junior member, I know when to admit that....

You have to invest time and testing in your setup to avoid sounding bad. Of course you need talented musicians. Practice/rehearsal time can be a challenge ,but we do it. Doing 4 part harmonies requires it. A good monitor setup is crucial; it's a complete 2nd setup on the job.
We also do sound checks before we start checking tone, pa, and monitor levels. Of course this is adjusted throughout. This also means getting everybody there early enough to set up their own stuff and do the checks- a bigger challenge...

This reminds me of our visit to Germany this summer. We went to a very famous beer garden in Munich. The place was huge - holds over 5000 people comfortably! Everyone was having a great time - drinking oversized mugs of the best tasting beer you have ever put in your mouth. It was very loud with singing and laughter. Well, there was also a band playing the songs you would expect in such a place and they had the crowd in their hands. But, wow - were they lousy from a musicians point of view. BUT NO ONE CARED - NOT EVEN ME!

Deane

Yeah- being professional in your performance, equipment, and preparation still doesn't guarantee you the gold medal...

Ok, big misunderstanding. I'm more than ready to move on. I'll be the first to admit that quite often my posts may contain a healthy dose of sarcasm (sort of my 'personality'), but hopefully not in a malicious or hateful way, especially towards an individual or GROUP. Also, I can assure you that Nigel makes absolutly NO distinction between 'junior' and 'senior' when it comes to what is appropriate behavior on the forum. I can point you to a number of 'seniors' (myself included) that can attest to that .

As for my setup; I don't play out much anymore, only about once a week on average. I play mostly in one club and that club is blessed with a great in-house PA and usually has it's own sound guy in on the weekends. Since I only play organ I only use a single Leslie 3300 miked thru the PA but not fed back to a stage monitor (not necessary). Prior to that, I used a Motionsound Pro45 but needed a (Peavy) sub to augment the bass. Before that, I used a Traynor K4 with two Aux powered 8"'s (Podium 802). All worked well but none as well as the real Leslie. I also have a Mackie 808S driving two Cerwin Vegas (for vocals) for those rare other gigs but plan to replace those with a my little MDX10 Roland Mixer, a power amp and 2 EV's. In my opinion, EV's are the best-sounding all-around PA speaker (both their active and their passive). At rehearsal (in my studio/rehearsal room), I use the K4 to cover my eDrum kit. My guitarist brings his own (Fender twin reverb, I think). I'm looking forward to replacing the CVs with the EVs.

Peace,

chas

We could all do with remembering that even jazz has its share of 'entertainers' and that often, during its heyday, there were bigbands that relied more on showmanship and 'antics' than on sheer musicianship and introspection.

For every genre I can think of, there are giants and midgets, and everything in between. It isn't really fair to put ANY particular style or genre down because the majority of who we have seen may not compare favorably with our favorites..!

I think everyone missed my point (above). Arrangers have come a long way. You can program them now to put instruments at your fingertaps, and the means to instantly change the instrument you're playing......do a variation or two or three, or even four of the rhythm......use a vocal harmonizer.....pan the instruments.....run the bass out to it's own amp.

So the point was.....I'm wondering what my PA3x would sound like if I had it going through gargantuan speakers? Have arrangers progressed now so far that a really good one-man-band/vocalist, with a big, I mean BIG, sound compete with your average every-day band? Like Vagro's "Scissors Cut".....if I didn't know he was playing a PA3x and a Yamaha, I'd swear that was a small group playing.

You know I just might go down to SA with my keyboard and ask him to run it through the biggest system they have ready to go and see what it sounds like at max power?

Mark

Sam Ash in Edison had a pa3x on display a few days ago- you dont' have to bring yours. I'm probably going there later today. My friend's T-2 sounds awesome through the his pa system.

Mark

I posted before about a Jersey Shore Legend who's still around, Al Rando. I'll just describe the setup he used in the past at a place called PJ Ruggles where I would go see him all the time.
Yamaha TOL organ and two midi controller keyboards. Rack of modules and power amps behind a wall in the coat room. 8 -- JBL 3 way cabinets with 18" woofers in them. Yes that's 8 !!! And because he let people sing with him he had 8 home stereo type speakers on top of the JBL's just for 1 mic. The sound was incredible but under control so I guess back to your question, yes, in the right hands power can work.

used to see Al at the White Sands in Pp.........is he still around ?

Oh yea, the heyday at the White Sands. B3, 4 leslies, baby grand, conn theatre organ, two mini-moogs --run for cover !!

I believe he's still doing some nights at Brennn's Steakhouse on Rt. 35 in Neptune. Saw him there some years ago. He's down to 1 Yamaha keyboard but makes it sound great. Fran tipped me off recently and they're still adverstising him

http://brennensnj.com/

Used to see him a Savanahas in spring lake also.......great player

Just as arrangers have improved dramatically, so have sound systems. It is no longer necessary to have huge, multiple amps and speakers to sound great.
You can take a Bose system, or two, and sound just as incredible. You can use a small, lightweight digital mixer to run the separate outs if you wish.
All this can easily be transported without using a Uhaul!
A few years ago, there was a guy here who did much as you described. For every sound he had a dedicated source--keyboards, a rack of modules, etc. For every source he had a dedicated amp and speaker. The setup took half the room and there were very few venues hiring a one-man band that had room to accommodate his setup. Must say he did sound incredible, but I was getting most of the jobs because his setup took so much room. Also, unless you were in a really big venue, it was hard to hear that the sounds weren't coming from one speaker.
DonM

I agree with my very intelligent, southern gentleman counterpart. We had a couple guys here with similar setups, they played some large weddings and other venues, but the setup time took hours and much of the entire stage. The halls eventually decided that it was overkill, and during the time it took to set up their gear they could book another, smaller event in the same hall prior to the larger job.

Cheers,

Gary

Sonically I don’t see why a OMB couldn’t be in the same league as a live band (at least volume wise)
But of course a band will most likely be more visually appealing (exciting to watch) than a OMB. It’s always a pleasure to witness the “magical” musical chemistry that happens with a live band.

For a OMB to really “compete” against a live band, the OMB has to be exceptionally good. For example let’s say you have an above average (but not great) OMB and an average live band alternating sets. Chances are the audience will respond better to the band. This will be especially be true if all the members of the mediocre band are good entertainers. The band of course has the advantage of number of guys/gals on stage. In other words it’s more visually appealing.

What if at that German festival that you went to had a OMB that was as bad as the live band that you described? I’m pretty sure the OMB would not have gotten the enthusiastic reaction that the lousy band did.

I think my friends here with Bose systems are not really thinking about the volume levels a REAL band would put out, yet alone a LOUD real band!

You want the same visceral thump that a real drummer and a band put out, when even that is amplified by a REAL live band amplification system, there really isn't any substitute for the real thing.

Lately, I have been pretty impressed with the new QSC self powered systems, when paired with a beefy powered sub or two. A couple of raucous rowdy nightclubs with traveling bands playing live have got these as house systems, and I can tell you! Ear-splittingly loud, but still clean as a whistle and with plenty of presence. Highly recommended

I hear ya Diki and of course I see your point. But we are trying to make an arranger SOUND like a live band, and we don't have a live drummer and bass player, although we're gettin' closer.

I have done a huge Mardi Gras party for our church (Catholic) the past 8 or 9 years. Last year there were nearly 400 people there. I generally use two Bose L1s, although I have done it with one L1, and also with two Compacts. The two L1s did a great job; the two Compacts just adequate and were maxed out, but still good sound. When I used a Tyros to do it, I ran the drums out to two channels in the mixer and e.q.d them in order to get them to sound decent. This was not necessary on Roland or Audya. (I tried it and the difference wasn't worth the trouble).
Anyway, this year a new person was in charge and made a change and hired a "whole band". They had a truck load of gear. (Turns out her brother was the singer). I didn't go, but people are still complaining that it was painful on the dance floor and you couldn't hear anything but a roar in the back. Point is that it takes more than bodies to make a good sound, regardless if it's an arranger or individual instruments. They have already booked me for next year's party, in February.
I think we are all on the same page, but if you are going to do something BIG, you still need to do it RIGHT. I guess my point is that the audience, at least this audience, wants to be able to feel the beat on the dance floor, but still hear things clearly, even at the tables in the back.
I'm still not convinced the effort to use individual sound sources and individual amps and speakers for those sources would make people think there is a "real" band unless perhaps they were not watching, only listening.
In my opinion the number one advantage of having more than one band member is the interplay between members, not only musically but with regard to showmanship. BIG disadvantage is that the money must be divided among the band members. I only have to divide it with my wife!
DonM

I hear ya', Don!

And, once you get into large room volumes, the stage sound from the band is still only a small fraction of what the audience hears, so separate amps for the drums, bass, etc. is only really going to improve things for those on stage or REAL close to it. Seems like an awful lot of gear for something so few would appreciate (or even want!).

Mind you, if, as there have been a few posts about recently, there are some REAL players playing in with the arranger, a bass player, a frisky guitarist, even a drummer locking to the click (or just playing with your LH bass), having those Parts split out and sent to rigs on stage can go a LONG way towards making them feel comfortable on stage, and them not have to make major adjustments to their playing techniques. I have on occasion used a bass rig for my LH, but I prefer not to if I can help it!

I have noticed, though, that if you DO split out those bass heavy parts, your need for YOUR on stage monitoring goes down radically. Other than the bass and drums, 99% of what the 'keyboard player' plays has little low end, and tiny little monitors suffice really well..!

I read what everyone wrote here and......thanks for the input....you gave me a lot to think about that I hadn't previously considered.

I guess I should have said, though, that the sound system thoughts were for doing jobs with lots of stage area, lots of time to set up, and (hopefully) lots of money to be made...shows, Festivals, demonstrations, summer fairs, DisneyWorld type locations, etc.

I've been thinking for a while now about this as I'm watching ordinary gigs becoming almost non-existent overnight and I'm thinking it's time to reinvent myself.

It's in the planning stages now (stage shows), but, to be honest, it's been in the planning stages for a few years now. Still, I'd love to hear (before I get too old to be carrying equipment around) what can be done sonic-wise with the new big three TOTL arrangers, and maybe that will "jump-start" me into doing something with my ideas.

You hear a lot of good demos with a lot of fancy players playing a lot of fancy music but you don't hear examples of what these keyboards sound like through gargantuan sound systems. Personally, I'd like to run my PA3x through Deep Purple's setup and hear what it can sound like at it's best.

As for the separate "outs," I wanted to "out" each note of the percussion instruments into a separate channel on maybe a 16 channel mixer and EQ each of them......particularly to clean up the bass, snare, cymbals, and cowbells....I have a fetish for cowbells. But I'm not even sure you can separate the sounds on the percussion track. I never really looked into it.

I think also, that if you're looking to sound like a band, in addition to good "punch" in your sound, you also need to make up a lot of drum patterns and a lot of "fills" for each genre so that it doesn't get monotonous to the listener and keep switching between them in your song maybe every 2-4 measures. The one thing I notice the most on OMB players is they tend to leave the same style running and use very little "fills." I watch drummers play now, and I see how you don't realize how much the drummer is doing in the background to fill out a song by complementing the lead player/vocalist. Good arranger playing requires that kind of versatility, though you could easily wear down your fingertips by pressing tabs and going through style variations and fills a few hundred times per song!

Also the bass. I used to think a bass is a bass is a bass. As I listen now, I realize that the bass player is the one who defines the song and makes it come alive. How could you play Motown without a great bass line? Another "must do" to sound like a band!

Unfortunately now, I'm more of a player than a technician. I wish I had as much tech knowledge as you guys have. There's no room for just a "player," you also have to have a good knowledge of the proper reproduction of your "playing."

As I think about all the info on this thread, I'm reminded of what Frank at AudioWorks said to me when I bought my PA3x. "There is so much you can do with this board, that you have to keep remembering to ask yourself is what you're working on presently (with the keyboard) going to be worth the end result....i.e. is the "end" worth the "means?" Will anyone really notice or care these "non-listener" days that you EQ'd the drums for max sound quality? Or you panned each instrument? Or you programmed just the right amount of vibrato at a 2 second delay into your violin patch? I don't think so.

But...at the end of the day. I'd still love to just hear someone playing a TOTL arranger on maybe even Springsteen's setup. I certainly could use the motivation.

Mark

Sparky......Yes, I called them today. Yes, they DO have one. And some nice EV's to run it through. I'm surprised, I thought the only PA3x SA demo'd was in NY. With that in mind, maybe we can set up a date to meet there and trade some ideas?

Mark

Now Mark, this is where the Audya really, but really shines. I know, hard to believe or appreciate unless one has his very own to experiment with. This is one of the immediate outstanding features of my Audy for me, that stunning, super intelligent drummer. Whether I use many fills or not (and I really use many - always), he does his own thing in the background over and above. You have to hear it & play with it yourself to really beieve it.

Regards,
Henni

Henni,

I'm with you on that one. I first played a Ketron SD3 about 5 years ago when I didn't even know what they were all about. I was on that thing for about 3 hours and enjoying every minute of it.

Ever since I wanted to buy one. But I got sidetracked along the way, and that brings me up to today when I'm facing the Tyros, the PA3x, and a Ketron keyboard.

When I purchased my PA3x, truthfully speaking, I really wanted an Audya (and I needed 76 keys). But for my use, I thought the Korg was better for my needs as I want to do editing and I think the Korg excels in that.

Then there were the stories I heard about Ketron support here in the USA. I realize AJ can only do so much tech support, but Korg has service centers all over (I hope!).

In the end, I figure if things work out for me with this PA3x, then I will buy an Audya for a backup keyboard.

You're one of the lucky Ketron owners.......good luck with it!

Mark

Mark,

I truly believe that most Audya issues are software related. I even stuffed up mine by loading the wrong stuff onto it & now I also experience strange things.

However, the restoration DVD's are on their way to me. Every Audya owner should have a set of these. The Audya allows access to it's operating system and you know what happens to even Windows when you mess up over there.

But, these lock ups are way over emphasized. A simple reboot takes less than a minute and solves all. I know that with the latest operating systems, these do not occur anymore and also I did not experience same before I started messing around.

I follow all demos, forums discussions, downloads and every bit of news on all arrangers. The Audya is unlike anything else. I can never be satisfied with less. I'm like a spoiled brat now, I have it all!!

But I know, all this talk from me is hard to believe. I'm no arranger novice. I've modified and tweaked and uploaded my share of styles for the Yamaha community.

In the Audya I have the best of all. I crave for nothing else at the moment. I'm discovering new stuff as I go along and it does not sieze to amaze me.

Maybe the kind of styles are to my personal liking & maybe the Audya is not everyone's cup of tea. But it fills our requirements perfectly and we are really elated.

And then, did I mention that super intelligent drummer that now works for me...Did I mention those stunning bass riffs that my bass player so freely provides. And those live guitar players...Really, it's hard for me to stop.

And soon I'll put my money to where my mouth is and post some stuff here for all to listen & see what all this hype is about.

My friend, whom I bought my Audya from, says he's never seen anyone pressing so many buttons when playing an arranger. I use intro's and endings as fills. In this way the Audya is perfect for me. It can do same and the huge variety of fills makes it sound even more live.

On top of this, my drummer does his own thing. It's amazing to say the least! It truly cannot be compared with anything else currently available out there as far as arrangers go.

Keep well my friend,
Henni

I agree that for what you want to do, the Audya would be ideal. Nothing else sounds as LIVE. I have PA3X now and I am very happy with it, but the Audya seems to be designed and built for what you want to do. It has facility for multiple outputs, so you could route things the way you want. The drummer and bass player seem to read your mind and add tasteful fills and riffs seamlessly.
I had zero problems with my Audya, and I played in nearly every night for over two years.
DonM

Mark, Let me know what's good for you..I'm flexible..my schedule that is, not me anymore...