....and instead of "all the food you could eat," they offered you "all the speakers you could play through?"

I went to a German Festival tonight....sat there and watched the band. Worst band (or close to it) I ever heard. Like something out of your worst reality TV show!

The accordion player sang out of key and nowhere near his proper vocal range, the rhythm guitarist forgot to change chords, and even the bass player played wrong notes. The music coming out of the speakers was just a big blur. I couldn’t even make out the beats.

What they DID do, though, was sing a lot of eeeeeee-ah’s, yodel here and there, and whip them up into a frenzy doing Ein Proseit. But the people were dancing up a storm. I was the odd one out actually listening (it’s a curse being a musician).

I sat there and thought about everything. The first thing I thought, obviously, was....why bother practicing every day? People really don’t really care about the quality of music, only the “volume“ and the “excitement.” But....that’s OK with me....if that’s the way it is, then that’s the way it is.

Then I remembered years ago, I went to a local bar to see a friend playing. Before I got in the room, I was listening to someone playing I Will Survive. I thought they put a band in that night, but it was my friend playing a new keyboard setup. Controller keyboard working a rack of modules and a left hand bass going through a huge JBL bass bin. Everything amplified by a big watt Crown amp. What a sound he had!

So my next thought was: I was wondering what my PA3x (or a Tyros or Audya) would sound like if I had all that amplification on it. Bass going through a separate channel and into something like 20 bass bins. Drums coming out of their own output and EQ'd on the mixer. Then speakers all over the stage for the main sound. Of course, I’m exaggerating, but I’m thinking would I sound as big as that band tonight if I did do something like that? Which leads to....I’m wondering how close you can come to competing with a band (or many bands) like I was watching tonight if you were a very skilled one-man-band (“power player?”) using enough speakers.

Mark

What you witnessed at the German Festival was probably fueled as much by alcohol and the 'festival' atmosphere as by the band's volume and antics. If a 'bad' jazz group tried that in a jazz club, the 'excitement' you'd see would be the band getting tossed out on it's rear to a chorus of boos. You simply can't apply the experience of one music situation to another. Sheer volume can be as much of a negative as a positive, depending on the venue and the degree of appropriateness. Volume alone has little meaning until framed in context, and is certainly no guarantee of generating audience participation or excitement.

To me, the key isn't LOUD but clarity. Volume should always be just what is appropriate for that specific situation, but CLARITY (as in QUALITY of sound) is ALWAYS in order.

It may not be possible (or practical) to have the perfect (sound) rig for every musical venue so it's probably best to just get the best possible speakers that will best amplify the instruments in YOUR rig (including vocals)......then add 10% (if optimum turns out to be 1000w power amp and 12" speakers, get 1500w and 15's - okay, not exactly 10% but you get the idea).

......and finally, if you're going out specifically to listen to music, stay away from German Festivals.

chas

First of all glad it wasn't us (we didn't play last night). Clarity is key. That's why I use EV's. I play through the pa and actually bought the system after hearing a friend use it. He plays a t-2 and runs the bass through a separate channel into his mixer. But you have a point. I have lost work at a particular venue because the "other guys" jump around the stage, hoot and holler, and have lights flashing all to engage the crowd. Musically and vocally they are way off. But some club owners want the show and not the go.Nothing you can do unless you can do both...oh, and they were cheaper than us too..

Chas- Don't knock the festivals, or the music, or the musicians- I make money there...and we don't drink on the gig....everybody does their own thing and I don't begrudge anyone their style of music as I would not want them to do the same. I have an excellent group of musicians; we have been playing music for 40+ years since we were kids (not together ). My trumpet player also does classical and has traveled all over the world performing both that and German folk music. My bass player has played for several professional touring bands over the years ,etc. You do yours- we do ours..........

Got it........LOUD AND CLEAR.

I wasn't putting down German Folk music. Mark said that he went there as a 'listener' and I suggested that perhaps the carnival-like atmosphere that surrounds most ethnic folk festivals might not be the most conducive for strictly listening but was more oriented towards 'merrymaking' and 'less serious' forms of entertainment. And heaven forbid that I suggest that any serious beer drinking might be going on at a German Folk festival.....what the hell was I thinking? And BTW, I was referring to the festival goers, not the band.

In any case, as a relatively junior member, I'm sure you'll be a wonderful addition to the forum. Your closing statement speaks volumes.

chas

You may be surprised to know we do other forms of music. Oldies, some common pop tunes, big band and swing, etc. sure there are some groups who are simply hokey and managed to get paid. Like any other form of music you can't paint everybody with a broad brush.

Yes I am a junior member. And I belong to other forums as a senior member. Neither status gives me or anybody else the right to walk on anybody else, or takes away the right to defend yourself. With all due respect, I'm glad you understand.

I'll admit I may be wrong here; are senior members here granted certain inalienable rights that others aren't? Perhaps Nigel can answer that.

Back to the subject, again I choose Electro-Voice for clarity. SB122 subs and ZX1 satellites. Power amps in the rack. Add Klipsch 15's for big stuff. Everything runs through the mixer. Proper equalization is a must- some ignore this. Even the best speakers can sound crappy if no one pays attention to the eq settings. I back off on the midrange to take the "mud" out. Outdoor venues require different settings than indoor- I find it's just not set it and forget it for all jobs.

Could you point to the specific part of my first post where you were 'walked on'. I think I missed it. In fact, I don't recall mentioning you at all. For the most part, I believe we try very hard to avoid 'us and them' type references when talking about our own membership. Perhaps that's more acceptable on those fora where you're a senior member.

chas

It's not acceptable anywhere. Perhaps I mistook direct speech for sarcasm. I simply interpreted your comments about "less serious forms of entertainment" as a slant against all of those who play this type of venue or music. Perhaps I was wrong to do so. Even as a junior member, I know when to admit that....

You have to invest time and testing in your setup to avoid sounding bad. Of course you need talented musicians. Practice/rehearsal time can be a challenge ,but we do it. Doing 4 part harmonies requires it. A good monitor setup is crucial; it's a complete 2nd setup on the job.
We also do sound checks before we start checking tone, pa, and monitor levels. Of course this is adjusted throughout. This also means getting everybody there early enough to set up their own stuff and do the checks- a bigger challenge...

This reminds me of our visit to Germany this summer. We went to a very famous beer garden in Munich. The place was huge - holds over 5000 people comfortably! Everyone was having a great time - drinking oversized mugs of the best tasting beer you have ever put in your mouth. It was very loud with singing and laughter. Well, there was also a band playing the songs you would expect in such a place and they had the crowd in their hands. But, wow - were they lousy from a musicians point of view. BUT NO ONE CARED - NOT EVEN ME!

Deane

Yeah- being professional in your performance, equipment, and preparation still doesn't guarantee you the gold medal...

Ok, big misunderstanding. I'm more than ready to move on. I'll be the first to admit that quite often my posts may contain a healthy dose of sarcasm (sort of my 'personality'), but hopefully not in a malicious or hateful way, especially towards an individual or GROUP. Also, I can assure you that Nigel makes absolutly NO distinction between 'junior' and 'senior' when it comes to what is appropriate behavior on the forum. I can point you to a number of 'seniors' (myself included) that can attest to that .

As for my setup; I don't play out much anymore, only about once a week on average. I play mostly in one club and that club is blessed with a great in-house PA and usually has it's own sound guy in on the weekends. Since I only play organ I only use a single Leslie 3300 miked thru the PA but not fed back to a stage monitor (not necessary). Prior to that, I used a Motionsound Pro45 but needed a (Peavy) sub to augment the bass. Before that, I used a Traynor K4 with two Aux powered 8"'s (Podium 802). All worked well but none as well as the real Leslie. I also have a Mackie 808S driving two Cerwin Vegas (for vocals) for those rare other gigs but plan to replace those with a my little MDX10 Roland Mixer, a power amp and 2 EV's. In my opinion, EV's are the best-sounding all-around PA speaker (both their active and their passive). At rehearsal (in my studio/rehearsal room), I use the K4 to cover my eDrum kit. My guitarist brings his own (Fender twin reverb, I think). I'm looking forward to replacing the CVs with the EVs.

Peace,

chas