Because there had been a criticism of smooth jazz on another thread rather than hijack the thread I will create another.

While this smooth jazz may not appeal to jazz purists it is a favorite of mine. Bobby Caldwell is such a talented artist.

I really like the first song. During the 80s I had friends who lived just under 2 hours drive away and I would regularly make the drive on weekends late at night. After sunset this is the kind of thing I would listen to.

Whilst I did not have any Bobby Caldwell, these were in my cassette collection:

I don't think I've ever put together a set list that 'What you won't do for love' wasn't on. One of my alltime favorites and always a surefire crowd pleaser. I still remember how shocked I was when I found out Bobby Caldwell wasn't uh, a 'Brother'. But then again, he came from an era where 'Blue-eyed soul singers' were fairly common (Tom Jones, David Clayton Thomas, and even in Rock, Joe Cocker (my all-time favorite genuine article, soul singer)).

chas

I love this stuff. Great groove. Sinatra thing is great too but I wouldn't call it "smooth jazz" in the modern context, classy pop maybe. Used to be radio station here in the NJ/NYC area that played all Sinatra on Sat. evenings. Used to enjoy listening in the car on the way to a gig or on the way home if it was an early party. also used to be a late Sat. night show called "Groove Boutique" Loved that on the late night drives home. Radio has gotten soooooo bad I almost hate to put it on.

Thanks

You're not the ONLY one, my friend ...

Everyone notice how important the bass lines are in the above songs? ...

I think I've given the wrong impression about smooth jazz... Just like just about ANY musical form, there are exceptional examples, and people that take the form beyond its' limitations.

The thing for me is how universal and pervasive the style has become, and how pretty unimpressive much of the 'me too' players are. I mean, the Weather Channel! Ouch!! (Color me guilty of the same crime, though!)

It is turning into the worst form of muzak, a vanilla pudding of predictability, used for its ability to offend the FEWEST people in any randomly gathered group of consumers stuck waiting for whatever service the 'Corporate Person' decides isn't worth their while to do in a timely fashion.

It isn't that there isn't any GOOD smooth jazz... it's just how much BAD (or bland, tasteless and predictable) there is. I guess, I just tend to prefer music that you either love or HATE... I don't have much time for music that just makes you go 'meh'!

I do understand what you are saying. But I just wanted to point out that there is some awesome music out there that is tagged with this label and shouldn't be ignored because of that. But sure, like any genre it is being exploited for commercial purposes.

And as Tonewheeldude points out George Benson is another fantastic musician that falls under this tag. In fact George has been playing great music long before the "smooth jazz" tag was even created. smooth ... yes ... jazz ... yes ... awesome ... yes !!!!

One of the things about the greats playing smooth jazz that always kind of gets me is watching them underplay massively.

You KNOW these guys are able to play circles around what is on the record (and often, smooth jazz artists can amaze live, given the opportunity to stretch out a bit past the CD release) and can harmonically move WAY beyond the safe choices the genre makes them pick. But the record company or their management force them to play it safe, and knock off all the sharp edges, in case the consumer cuts themselves!

I have to confess... I prefer Benson's work from before the move to this 'smooth' phase. I'll even take the disco years over this!

I don't post often but I do enjoy the discussions on this forum. On this specific subject I do have a strong opinion. While I too enjoy this style of music (Caldwell'S Song)very much I have never considered it "Jazz" and I think the controversy comes from applying that word to this style. Granted the musicians on this video are more than capable of playing jazz but this is not jazz.
IMHO it's funk/pop blended with R&B. Very nice style and I really like it. To me Jazz is improvising and creating live. That's not what's going on here for the most part.

joesax

Well, if I'm being honest, I have to agree with joesax.....100%. Although we play 'What you won't do for love' almost every gig, we play it very straight with heavy jazz/funk/blues-type solos played over that great horn riff which whoever is not soloing is playing softly in the background. Very cool. Very effective. But yeah, I've always thought of it as R&B quite frankly. Good R&B, but still R&B. Still it just goes to show how much overlap there is in different genre's of music, but it also shows the potential negative effect of putting too much emphasis on labels.

chas

This is my opinion – it does not change the value of others and what they find value in.

When I think about jazz/rock improvising what I hear most of the time is an emotion; very much the same type of emotion I get when I listen to a great drummer.

Years ago I brought a recording to my guitar teacher and after listening I asked for his opinion; his answer was that the guitar player was very good but he sounded like a hundred other guitar players. It took me a while until I received the full meaning of what he said.

What I hear in the many areas of Rock/Jazz today is a well put together group of scales and modes based on the chords or key being played. I was lucky to be on a job with an excellent Tenor Sax man; we were playing an old Sinatra tune Witchcraft. When he took his solo I realized that his solo was based on the chord progression – ¾ through with the song he leaned close to me and said, “What song are we playing”.
Please understand I respect all types of music and how they are played; they all have a story to tell.

When I listen to Django Reinhart his lines are good and not tiring. He may use some scales but most comes right from his heart. My take on jazz is based on the song itself. I take the original song and begin to add and substitute – to fill the empty areas – to create more areas where notes are silent. You can actually hum the song I am playing although I am playing only scatted parts of the melody. It is my version of the song. I work within the original structure of the song.

John C.

I enjoy a lot of "smooth jazz" but I don't hear much "jazz" in it. If there is zero interplay/interaction between the soloist and the rhythm section it's not really jazz IMO. I think most "smooth jazz" should be called "intrumental pop, intrumental funk..."

i like some smooth jazz tunes especially on the weather channel "Local on the 8ths" .....but, 99% NOT created on an arranger KB....I hear Synth & WS written all over it mixed in with live players mostly,.....it's very creative using all available as it should be, ..it's just another genre of music to enjoy.

At least on my restaurant gigs, I play smooth jazz almost exclusively. That's because it has enough structure left (most of it, at least) to keep me from falling asleep, lots of "current" favorites are nothing but reprocessed 70's and 80's music people remember, and the majority of customers can be "bamboozled" into believing that if they act like they like it they join the group of "cool" folks.

It is the compromise I make to keep working, and most of the material just is not that bad...especially the George Duke kind of stuff.

I worked lots of trade shows with George Benson in the 70's and before. He recorded lots of instrumental jazz albums for Blue Note and sold about 500,000 each.

Then, He recorded his 1976 album (Breezin') with Masquerade as the major piece and 13 weeks later, had sold 12 million copies.I was lucky enough to play the tune with him at a winter NAMM.

It was the first immensely successful smooth jazz album. I talked to him about it in 1979. He said lots of "hard liners" (probably lots of unemployed jazz players) gave him a really hard time about selling out. He said, "hey, I just lost my jazz contract, I was thinking about getting into the contracting business. I'm not gonna make ANY excuses. I'm feeding my family, and brought a slightly more commercial form of jazz to a whole lot more people".

I say WAY TO GO, GEORGE!

Making compromises is not necessarily selling out.

Now me, I've sold out". I'm spending several days this week recording FRIED CHICKEN MUSIC (LOL)!

Donny wears a chicken hat...I play chicken music. I COULD play the music wearing the hat, but that would be a little over the top!


Be well,


Russ

This thread (and its companion - chord substitutions) are possibly the two BEST threads I have ever read on SZ.

Tremendously interesting to read, and they both prove that all views can be listened to, as long as the mutual respect for each persists.

Bravo to everyone who has contributed.

Thanks

Dennis

Dennis, your contributions here on the two threads you mention are some of the most valuable, in terms of meaning, usefulness sincerity.

Thanks,


Russ

Hi Nigel:

Smooth jazz, cool jazz, just about any jazz, like all other forms of music will have those who can't get enough of it... and those who can't stand it. Guess that's why people buy either Chevys or Fords... LOL!

There aren't many forms of jazz I don't enjoy... but then I like most genres with a few exceptions. On another music oriented site, the founder has one definition of good music... "Does it move you?" That works pretty well for me.

Thanks for bringing this up and sharing songs you enjoy.

Dave Rice

Tony, when I have a choice, the bass player is the strongest player in any of my configurations.

Bass lines on these kinds of tunes are the engine that makes them work.

Good observation.

Quality of bass lines with arrangers is one of the reasons I'm a little reluctant to use them. It's not that they're bad; they're just dull, generally.

45% of my work over the years has been as a "slappin" bass player. I even have a custom built double neck with a fretless neck at the top and a fretted neck on the bottom.

I don't even mind playing country bass (I Know, I Know), where the job is to be part percussionist.

LOVE my old 59 P bass and my 1963 jazz. They're now worth more than my new Subaru.


Russ

Russ ... thanks ...
I do find bass lines on the arranger rather repetitive ... perhaps if I was talented enough I could play a 'walking bass' ...
Two New Year's eves ago we went out for the night ... the bass player in the band formerly played with "Tavares" ... he moved that band all night ...

To BOTH the appreciaters & haters of 'smooth jazz' here:

Realizing that 'smooth jazz' genre can mean very different things to different people,
please list which 'smooth jazz' artists and/or songs you especially like or
can't stand. What specific musical attributes about 'smooth jazz'
do you dis-like or find appealing?

Scott, Nigel's list on the "chord substitutions" thread is, for me, at least, a perfect start. I'd ad Foreplay and a few others, but you get my direction.

Love to play this stuff!


Russ

Scott:

I enjoy all types of music and certainly the category of what is called "smooth jazz" is one of them. There really isn't anything I dislike about it. As with any type of music there are good and bad samples. I do however believe that "smooth jazz" has not evolved enough and seems to be stuck in the same place for a while. It's template tends toward shorter repetitive melodic phrases that don't offer the opportunity to create alternates so you are more or less confined to the chord progressions as the inspiration for improvisation.

As to Arranger bass line repetitiveness I can agree. Although I have found a few styles on my T3 that were interesting. However since adding a Motif XF6 to my setup I can tell you that the Motif offers a fantastic array of infinitely adjustable bass arps that respond to your mode of playing. It is truly amazing.

joe