If you think that's bad,..... my wife years ago went to Disneyland with the kids and the boat ride broke down going thru the Pepsi exhibit that plays this song in every language ....she was stuck in the Japanese part of the exhibit for 4 hours until it was fixed with the song playing over and over again!!! .....
anytime she hears it now it drives her crazy!! lol

Look, who are we kidding? The minute that ANYTHING you are doing is not actually you live, you have made the compromise. Even if you make your own styles or SMF's from scratch, you are still doing something on stage that involves a machine. Big deal.

We've been sequencing and using arrangers since the 80's. Hardly anything new. Time to stop wringing our hands and wailing 'Woe is me!'

Does it really MATTER?

What matters is what YOU play. The more, the better. The tastier, the better.

Otherwise, go out, get yourself a stage piano, and either go out and get gigs as a straight up pianist, or a B3 and some pedals, and do straight ahead organ (but no rhythm boxes, please!). Or play at home using unaccompanied piano or organ.

Now, don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with either of these forms of music playing. But don't kid yourself. To pull this off takes formidable chops. So, what are you going to do if you are NOT the next Oscar, or Jimmy? You use what is available. If some kind of backing, whether it is a real band, or a sequencer or an arranger helps you get away with more limited skills, and music is what you want to play, I say go for it!

No offense, but their have been solo entertainers as long as there has ever been live music. Not every tribe had a full set of log drum players! Not every mud village had a full mummers consort. Not every theater had a pit orchestra. Finance and availability has always determined that sometimes, the full schmeer can't be used. All kinds of instruments were invented to expand the range that one person could play. Even guitars were developed from instruments of one string, or two. But then, lo and behold, add a few more and now you can chord, bass and solo! The accordion started out as a simple single reed device. But then the left hand side started sprouting bass and chord buttons. Voila! Full band!

Now we have sequencers and arrangers, and even MP3 backings. All these are is the inevitable conclusion of a path created LONG ago. At every stage of this path, the previous generation has gone 'This is cheating', the current generation has gone 'IS this cheating?' and the next generation has gone 'This is how it's done'.

Big deal!

The crux of the matter is, unless you have SOME talent, no amount of any of this is going to make you sound good (except to your mother, and she HAS to like you!). And, whether the backing is a live band, or an SMF, or an arranger, if you suck, you suck! The machine isn't going to cover it up. Unless you don't play a single note. In which case, you HAD better sing pretty good, and dance like Fred Astaire!

Just get over yourselves, quit hand-wringing, and get on with it... However you WANT to make music, make it! Let the audience decide, not you, not your 'colleagues', and not some luddites bent on smashing all machines. Cream rises no matter what you do or don't use, and the grinds sink to the bottom of the cup.

No matter WHAT they use.

The problem with what you just said, Diki, is that up until the sequencers and arrangers, everything was played by the player in real time. One string or a dozen, the player still played every note. You sound as if the audience has NO RIGHT to know whether you're playing it or faking it. I disagree. I DO think there is such a thing as artistic integrity. My father used to say (mostly to women), "If you got something, show it; if you ain't got nothing, SHOW THAT".

While I DO agree that it's what YOU play that's important, I am not ready to write off musical honesty as a virtue and that "as long as it pleases the crowd", it's acceptable. This is not being elitist or a purist or any of the other labels people put on you if you dare disagree with their opinion. This is simply what I believe and just because you may be able to articulate your point better, doesn't necessarily make it more valid. If lip syncing was so acceptable, then why all the hullabaloo and scandal over Milli Vanilli? Obviously, SOMEbody didn't think it was OK.

I said before that I have no problem listening to a good player playing over a SMF or an arranger backing (so I don't think that qualifies me as a "pompous judge"). I already said how much I enjoyed that funk jam with Marco Parisi that you put up. But he is a great player and the parts he was playing were quite obvious. The problem I have is the opportunity for deception, especially in live situations where it's near impossible to tell who is playing what (or even IF). Then there is the fact that you are NOT interacting with other musicians in real time, making it impossible to get the kind of true "live" feel that only a live band can transmit.

Sure there are times and circumstances where "compromise" is appropriate, but I don't think we should ever allow ourselves to be comfortable with it or accept it as the norm. JMO and NO, I don't insist that everyone agree with it or that MY logic and sensibilities are on a higher plane than their's. It's JUST MY OPINION.

chas

“Why the shame in playing over SMF or Custom Backing Sequences?”

There is no shame as long as you do not pass it off as all your work.

I have a friend who downloads a midi file, makes some changes and then he calls them his arrangements.

My answer has always been if I do not use the midi file and play it with my arranger keyboard you will not hear all that the original song has to offer. If I do not use my keyboard you will have to hire 4 or 5 musicians to do the job.
(Which would be my preference)

John C.

My sentiments exactly...also, singing over a commercial midi-file, and not playing a note, does not qualify someone as an arranger/keyboard "player"...more like an arranger/keyboard "user", in my opinion.

Ian

More like an "Arranger KB Controller" I would say is we are & do,......operating PRE programed Styles and Sequences is what is being done with these machines, lets be real here shall we?

... you guys trying to take the S-Z jester crown away from Tony Hughes ???

Jezz Tony they would need to get early in a morning to do that and smarten up a bit..

I guess it's down to how you define "keyboard playing" Donny...in my opinion, it means fingers actually pressing keys that make sounds, whether playing along with a midi file or a style or playing piano or B-3 either solo or with a band.

Pressing "Play" on the sequencer and singing over it (or even playing another non-keyboard instrument) is fine, and I have no problem with that...but, I just don't feel think it constitutes someone calling themselves a keyboardist/keyboard player/arranger player.

An "entertainer", perhaps, but not a keyboard player.

"Being real" (as in being a "keyboardist") or not depends on if one is really "playing" keys.

I'm sure that there are performers who combine simply singing over a commercial midi-file and also play the keyboard along with a certain percentage of the setlist, but I'm not talking about those people...I'm talking about those who don't play the keys at all.

Ian

Chas, I think the point that I was trying to make was, whether it's a REAL band, or a sequence, it still ISN'T all you. And I honestly think we are insulting our audience's intelligence to imply that they really DO think it is all you, when you sit down and a full band comes out of the speakers.

They can tell the difference, but honestly don't care. Just like no-one really cared when guitars went from one string to six (or more), or the accordion sprouted the chord and bass buttons.

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between someone who plays a one finger melody over a complete backing, and the player that plays 100% of all the parts other than bass, drums and maybe a guitar rhythm, but unless he is playing behind a curtain, give them some credit and admit that the audience CAN tell the difference.

TBH, as far as the audience is concerned, as long as either is entertaining (remember, we aren't talking studio here!) it is all good. I think the idea that the audience, if they are paying ANY attention at all, can't tell the difference is a bit naive.

BTW, the furor over Minni Vannilli lip synching wasn't that they were lip-synching. Plenty of artists have got away with that in a variety of circumstances. What they got busted for was lip-synching to SOMEONE ELSE'S vocals! Most major artists lip synch to their OWN recorded vocals... sometimes for TV issues, sometimes for health reasons (some of the singer/dancer acts are huge productions that can't be cancelled easily if the singer has a sore throat). And, let's not be rosy-glassed here... Some of the biggest and brightest stars in the world of jazz and popular standards singers have gone on TV singing to tracks. The practice has been going on FAR longer than the advent of sequencers and arrangers!

Where was the outrage?

Sorry, but this is a far deeper question than simply sequencer or not. Let's face it, the TRUE question goes back to the wax cylinder. The minute that ANY music got produced without a roomful of live musicians, the rot had set in. I bet you have a CD player, an iPod, a radio. That's not "everything was played by the player in real time", even in the studio while it was being created..!

Just give the audience more credit. If they are looking in your direction while you play, and give a damn at all, it's pretty easy to tell what YOU are doing and what you aren't. And if they don't give a damn at all, who CARES what they think?!