With Loud Piano, No Piano, and/or No Vocals

The demo samples sound pretty good

Yamaha Audio Backing Tracks

Not bad at all.

But no one knows how many styles you can use at one time.Does anyone has that information?How does it work? Does it go to all that magnificent 64mb of flash or do they go strait from usb??

Hey Larry ,

I think they looked at what i was bussy with

I think they thought thats a good idea to promote something dif then midi but almost the same lollllllllll

Greetz rico i couldnt resist

These are not audio STYLES but rather pro audio BACKING tracks that can be used with any device that plays wave files. Many keyboards support playing wave files from a USB stick where you can play and/or record and add your performance and/or voice. No internal flash memory is needed.

ooooo...Ok..Thanks for the info.Than I really take it back.Rico you are right.But,I think this is worse than using only midi files.Yammie is really selling out even a little bit of soul left in.

Sounds like karaoke ?

karaoke is fun, or most of the time...funny

Maybe they should of named it the k950 ?

Hopefully it is, Larry, as several pro SZ "Entertainers" sing over MP3 and/or Wav backing tracks, and they say that it is, indeed, "fun"...and, in some cases, quite profitable.

Thankfully (for the listeners), I have no aspirations as a singer/karaoke performer, but, no doubt the current bunch of Yamaha arrangers, and other brands, such as Korg's PA-600/PA3, can certainly do a fine job as Karaoke machines (even displaying lyrics on a big screen), equally for amateurs and pros alike.

Perhaps the "K" in "Korg", (which was originally called "Keio Electronic Laboratories", and later became "Korg" — a derivation of the words “Keio” and “ORGan”), could also stand for "Karaoke"???

Today's keyboards sure can be real "entertainment centers", for both home and bars...I think Karaoke it is still at it's most popularity in Japan and some parts of New Jersey....

Ian

Isn't it great that all the modern arrangers give you these options. You don't have to use it but it is nice to know that you can.

Wow! We only have one more step left, the actual SINGING on the track too, and all skill whatsoever will have been removed. Congratulations, Yamaha. You have found your target demographic..!

After all, it's asking altogether too much of anybody to be able to even SING... Let's all just sit around and mime to other people's abilities, and try to fool ourselves we aren't being utter idiots!

Better start practicing that air guitar...

Why not use original cd's and use hologram machine.That whey you can still charge for your performance,while sitting at a bar having free drinks.

That's the beauty of these options...you don't have to use them.

I know several pros who sing (and play guitar/piano) over Wav/MP3 backing tracks (maybe even a few SZ'ers ) and they are pretty happy with having these options, regardless of who makes them available.

I use them when doing demos, and it is always a lot of fun.

Again, the bottom line...the choice to use, or not, is entirely up to the player/performer.

No sign of the PA-600 yet, Frans?

Any idea when you'll get it?

Ian

Tyros 5 to have audio backing tracks I'm hearing.....

Pa600 early Nov...

Looking at some of the attitudes here, it's getting harder and harder to think of this board as a forum for serious musicians. The list of 'acceptable' compromises just keeps growing.

chas

Why does that bother you Chas? Not every one likes the .....same thing nothing wrong with that..

As you know, I think that's been a key long-standing issue.

Let's face it; musicians and entertainers sometimes don't agree or get along sometimes.

As someone who occasionally uses an arranger in performance, I know it's a "slippery slope". A good argument can be made that basic arranger functions are still pre-recorded and are, thus, not much different from backing tracks or the new Yamaha product.

Everyone needs to be comfortable with how they go about the choices they have. As you know, my choices are, 1. Only use the arranger when it is the best choice; never as a crutch. 2. Never use backing tracks of any kind. 3. Never use a laptop on the bandstand.

These are my choices only...what's right for me.

Everyone else should knock themselves out doing what works for them.

Just remember: there are opportunities for those who still prefer to take the more traditional approach.

And that's what makes me feel good!


Russ

I would say that is a pretty good guess.

I believe the new CVP-6** series will have them too.

We all know, not all arranger users are proficient keyboardists...many are vocalist/guitar players that want to do the OMB thing and, an arranger is easier to work with than a keyboard-less SMF player (module), and lets them record their own SMF/Wav/MP3 if they so wish.

Arranger manufactures realize there are many levels of skill and are clever enough to design an instrument to cover most, if not all stages, from the rank beginner all the way up to the very advanced player. Oscar Peterson loved his PSR-9000 Pro.

Ian

I guess for me, the bottom line comes HERE...

Is this a karaoke forum, or is this a forum for arranger PLAYERS?

Not 'START' button pushers.

In all fairness, there are a plethora of karaoke and DJ forums. If you feel that is acceptable, why not post there..? I mean, few musicians would bother to take the time to go to a DJ forum and tell them 'you need to learn how to play all this', but somehow, people that think karaoke and DJ-ing are acceptable forms of 'entertainment' on an arranger players' forum, and go 'this is OK' here.

And then wonder why there's a hostile reception to it..!

I'm sure you could use the audio backing tracks on anything that plays MP'3s, including your computer. You can then play along, sing along, fill in, edit, etc. with the backing tracks. If you have the right software like Audacity, or Acoustica, you can also record and save your performance.

However, the nice thing about having a keyboard that plays MP3'S is, you can do all that, along with utilizing the voices, VH, fills, etc, of the keyboard mixed with the audio backing tracks, then record and save it all directly from the keyboard to a USB.

IMO, there will be many purchases both by pros and amatures.
I find it not that much different than entering a recording studio, and singing over a pre-recorded backing. It's the way pro singers have been cutting albums for years.

I guess it bothers me because you represent yourself as a musician and it DOESN'T bother YOU. Lip Synching? Fully fleshed out audio tracks? What the hell does that have to do with art? If that's how you want to be defined as a musician then more power to you. I'm not pompous, elitist, purist, or anything else; I just think there is a limit to what you can pass off as 'creativity' or as a 'performance'. And yes, Donny, I'll say it; we definitely have a different standard. I still think that music is an art form, not some kind of technology project which the untalented, the un-studied, and yes, even the unscrupulous, can exploit for profit. I guess, for me, it's a question of values. There is a reason why a painting can be valued at millions of dollars while even a very good print or copy of it can be had for for few hundred. There IS such a thing as artistic integrity. It's one of the things that defines us as a society. So when people say that these forms of obvious FAKERY doesn't matter, then YES, it does bother me. Did that answer your question, Donny?

chas

I don't understand why some people are content to use a MIDI track or SMF in their keyboard, but are offended by an MP3.

That's a good way of putting it, Larry.

The beauty of these new Wav and MP3 players, is that they can be transposed and the tempo can be changed, the latter not affecting the pitch.

I know there are other ways of doing this, but, it is nice to see it all on an arranger (including SMF, and styles), and a rather reasonably priced one at that.

And, I agree, this will be very popular to both pros and amateurs.

Ian

Ian, good point...I forgot about the tempo and transpose options available on keyboards with audio backing capability.

It's my understanding, you have options with these audio backing tracks.

1. Full original recording to learn a song.

2. Minus one instrument so you can be the fill in guy

3. No vocal,(right hand) so one can sing or play along.

All of that sounds similar using recorded styles and midi's, only this is in audio format. To me it sounds like fun, and at the same time you get to be a part of the original recording.

Lip Syncing to someone else voice? Who does that professionally? If it's part of your act and the audience knows that, then maybe, but if you're trying to fool the audience that your Frank Sinatra, they will know...nobody's that's good.

Chas angry again? Chill dude.....I dropped the thought its getting too weird I'd rather just ignore it as this can only get ugly. Have a great evening.

I hope begin November but with Korg you never know for sure

Like him or not (I happen to count on him as a personal friend), you 'gotta' respect Chas as the standard bearer for keeping the creativity and the artistic components of creating great music alive.

He's the voice of a "small but mighty" group of people to whom the integrity of the music is everything.

We need these folks in the world. Sadly, to an extent, I've sold out. Chas would have loved to be a full-time jazz musician, and has the chops to have done it.

But, the great B-3 players in the world, for instance, often make about what I did as a communications VP at a major electrical company or what Chas made as a major airline pilot.

Again, musicians and entertainers often are not on the same page.

I respect Chas for being the "torch bearer"!

Russ (old school) Lay

One of the primary differences between an SMF and an audio backing track is... The SMF can be edited. You can mute out parts you don't want, you can mute out parts you want to play yourself, you can replace parts you think you can play better yourself, you can delete mistakes, you can seamlessly edit the song to a different structure, you can replace the drums (and the whole sequence) with an entire different groove.

An audio file? NOTHING. Nada. Zip. Oh yeah... whoop-te-do! You can change tempo and key (a bit, but not much).

I'm with chas on this aspect of it. Printing out an inkjet copy of a DaVinci masterpiece doesn't make you an artist in the slightest. It makes you a copy-boy.

As long as we don't confuse "integrity of the music" with narrow mindedness and/or unwillingness to try, or appreciate something new or different, everything should work out just fine.

And, I'm with Larry, in that singing, or performing, over a complete (finished) pre-recorded audio backing, is nothing new. "It's the way pro singers have been cutting albums for years."

Not only albums, but stage and TV shows as well.

Some very famous and well respected artists (including some instrumentalists), have never even met the musicians who played on their recordings.

Ian

Few of them ever went out live tours without musicians, though. And even fewer of them sung over backings commercially available to ANYONE that wanted them!

If my 'narrow-mindedness' is what prevents me turning into a karaoke act, with no input on my backing whatsoever, then I consider it an advantage!

There's nothing 'new or different' about karaoke. It's been done for years. What IS different is more and more musicians and singers turning to it, rather than leaving it the excruciating singalong form of 'entertainment' for drunk no-talent audience members trying to get over their up-tightedness!

Larry and Ian are right. On most of my studio work, I never even meet the people who have put down the previous tracks.

But I certainly agree with Diki; it's on the bandstand where the "rubber meets the road".

My life would be infinitely easier if I played guitar to tracks. I won't do it. Instead, I have developed a style that incorporates free flowing bass lines with a coherent lead/melody.

It's a lot harder, but, you know what? That style on nylon string guitar is in constant demand for State Government dinner functions, anniversary dinners...lots of functions, at top dollar.

The other end of the coin is, there's no respect in being a "music whore"...relying on tricks and gimmicks to hide the lack of ability.

Trying new things is OK. Being true to yourself is OUTSTANDING! Finding the balance between talent and tools is PHENOMENAL!


Russ

Emphasis is on the word confuse the "integrity of the music" with narrow mindedness and/or unwillingness to try, or appreciate something new or different.

I suspect most SZ'ers, especially those making use of an arranger keyboard, don't have issues with the latter part of the above. We play a very misunderstood, and often unappreciated type of instrument, sometimes looked down upon by some alleged purists.

Come to think of it, being narrow-minded would have prohibited such giants as Cecil Taylor, Miles Davis, and others like John Cage, Brian Eno, from creating sub genres (or whole new ones) from long established forms simply by thinking/creating outside the box, and/or using unconventional musical instruments; or, an alternative approach to playing traditional ones.

I have created many backing tracks for people I have never met using an Arranger Keyboard...just a few months ago, I did 20 background tracks for a Maritime singer/songwriter who I never met, except through his producer/arranger...this artist writes a lot of "filler" tunes that end up in Nashville on some "big name's" latest album, and he hopes that someday one ends up as a hit.

I never expected to work in that type situation, but, it pays the bills, and, not only is it fun, but it has helped me grow musically.

If one expects to survive in this business, being true to oneself is very important, but no more important than knowing how and when to adapt to new situations and industry direction.

My opinion, of course.

Ian

"music whore".
I like that one..hehehe
Well,why spend 100's of hours learning and $1000 music instructors .And why only being yourself when you can be anyone, for as cheap as $4.95.Actually,why learning anything in your life.Yamaha is there to think for you.
Something like that should be slogan for audio tracks.
I can almost make it like a song..hehehe.It will be called"Musical Whore". hehe
But it's gotta be a country song,because it will be very,very sad.

you gotta joke about these things.

I love Country music...

A favorite tune is Vince Gill's,

"It's Hard to Kiss the Lips at Night (That Chew Your Ass Out All Day Long}."

When asked what real country music was, Harlan Howard replied, "Country music isn't nothing but three chords and the truth."

Gibson allegedly made him a J-200 that only had 3 frets on it in the cowboy position!

Ian

I'm having a little trouble with the visualizing Miles playing with the new Yamaha product.

R.

And rightly you should, Russell...Miles, may God rest his soul, has been very dead since September 28, 1991.

He was only 65 years old.

Ian

The concept was the point...the timeline was not. How about Stevie Ray, Wes Montgomery, John Coltrane...take your pick?

They are ALL gone but not forgotten.

They all recorded by laying down tracks and playing over them.

Bet none would embrace the new Yamaha, or happily play over tracks.

Don't blame Yamaha for developing the technology and introducing it.

Certainly not interested in going to see anyone use it.

R.

Of course you wouldn't Russell...and, I am not a bit surprised you would not...it would be far beneath a proud and relatively gifted player like yourself.

Irregardless, I'm pretty sure Yamaha's Audio Backing Tracks will prove to be very popular (and a lot of fun), but no doubt, only to the HERE and BREATHING.

Ian

There's plenty of room for diversity in how musicians do what they do.

I sequence and arrange all of my own backing tracks. I've been doing this since high school in 1986. I have many arrangements finished on different keyboards. I can bring all of those arrangements with me as WAV and MP3... much lighter than bringing 3-4 old workstations with me.

My talent is sequencing so I don't need to buy backing tracks, I create them. My wife and I both sing at our gigs and that's what we focus on. During a set, we sing and I play piano... Then we add a few backing tracks arranged by me, the way we want it. I trigger WAV files from my Sonar VS-100 mixer which sits at my left on the corner of my Motif ES7. I trigger sequences from the Motif. The important thing is to keep the show going.

My new goal is to have one keyboard for the gig where I can organize all different types of files into a set list. I see a Tyros 5 (or whatever they will call it in 2013) of PA3x in my future.

Having everything at my fingertips in front of me, keeps me facing the audience. It makes it easier to transition into the next song through a short, funny story while setting the next song.

Plenty of room for ALL kinds of of musicians... Button pushers... Arranger players... Sequencing guys... Karaoke singers... Guitarists playing to backing tracks... And just people having their own fun with music! Peace!!!

And I certainly admire your way with words.! Well said.
Wasn't Julliard that lady that cooked on tv?
DonM

When the bar is lowered SO far on the term 'musician', to the point where you don't actually have to play ANYTHING and you can call yourself one, that's the time the term has lost all meaning whatsoever.

Now, anyone with an inkjet printer and stock art files is a 'painter', anyone with an e-book reader is an 'author', and anyone that can push the 'Play' button is a 'musician'.

O tempora, o mores!

Or was she that 70's Canadian singer with the big hair?




Ian

Musician (From Wikipedia)

A musician usually plays a musical instrument, especially (although not necessarily) as a profession. Musicians can be classified by their roles in performing music and writing music. A person who makes music a profession, anyone (professional or not) who's skilled in making music or performing music creatively, or one who composes, conducts, or performs music (especially instrumental music) is a musician.

Musicians can be of any music style not limited to classical, orchestral or choral, and musicians can have skills in many different styles outside of their professional experience. Examples of musicians' skills are the orchestration of music, improvisation, conducting, singing, composing, arranging, and/or being an instrumentalist.

Nice little article on electroacoustic music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroacoustic_music

Also, a more in depth article on Electronic Music and musicians/composers/performers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_music

Or...Musique concrète

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_concrete

The term "musician" obviously has a very broad meaning...much like defining "music".

Ian

But none of those definitions include the term 'button pusher'.

Let's face it, if you can press 'play' and mime over an audio track, then everyone in the world is a 'musician'.

You know, this strikes me as an awful lot of tap-dancing to justify something so broadly that there is no shame in any form of fakery. I'm sorry, but maybe YOU need to justify this, I don't. On the other hand, I am not involved in selling, demonstrating or promoting arrangers. So my motives are unsullied by commercial concerns.

If anyone here thinks that miming to audio tracks makes you a musician, you are so deluded as to not be worth talking to. And if you DON'T, why so silent when someone says such absurdities?

What's the difference on having a drum track or horn section playing along vs an audio track. It's still 'cheating' in the eyes of the so-called purists. Make music how you can. If you happen to have an exceptional voice, that usually trumps a mediocre musician. Now Freddie Hubbard and the likes is a different story. But no one here is Freddie Hubbard.

Zuki, I agree...make music how you can...and, I might add, try not let narrow-minded critics keep you from doing what you love and from expressing yourself musically, no matter what form of expression you choose.

If not for the music creators and musicians that were blessed with open minds, we'd still be listening to early "rock" music, which involved hitting a rock with a stick.

You know, Zuki, in my line of work, I am so fortunate to have the opportunity to play (and perform with) the very latest gear, meet all kinds of musicians from pro to amateur, novice to advanced, learn and appreciate new (some based on older ideas too) forms and methods of music production and/or entertainment...and get paid for it.

Not a bad deal.

Ian

PS...Do you miss performing?

Thx Ian.

Really fortunate to take your love and talent and make a living. A great gig!!!

Yes, miss it, but starting to get 'comfortable' on the daytime ease of life. My hours are a lean 8 - 3:30 or so and off every night and weekends. I do want to pursue it again some day (but it'll have to be soon).

Thanks for asking..

Rico,

You have opened a real can of worms here, isn't your real job repairing washing machines, perhaps you should trying singing with the backing of a few out of balance Bosh machines in high speed spin mode, put a different load in each should give you a reasonable frequency range, BTW don't use the new direct drive machine they are much too smooth and quiet in spin mode. We have one and I tried it, it don't work.

Whatever turns you on Rico is OK be me, I'm not a purist, I own an arranger, a purist would play a Mouth Organ (harmonica)and sing at the same time...

Be careful Tony...those washing machines have buttons that need to be pushed...

And yes, we can be pretty sure the very nature of an arranger keyboard ensures that it's user can't be a purist....but, it appears not to stop some from being critics.

Thankfully, criticism doesn't appear to prevent Rico and Tostie from posting their fantastic arranger playing...you know, Tony, perhaps the truly talented don't have time to listen to critics...they are too busy producing great music for us to enjoy.

Keep those great tunes coming, Rico...you are an inspiration.

Ian

Some of you (but not all!) may have noticed I am restricting my scorn to those that merely mime over the top of complete tracks.

If that is expressing yourself musically, I can suggest that an iPod is MUCH cheaper than an S950! And the 'tracks' are much less expensive than Yamaha will charge!

A good time for a mime joke.

Marcel Marceau dead at 84.

Here are his last words: [...]

Ha ha! I was going to post a joke about playing a mouth organ and singing at the same time, but this is a family board.

Hey, they are all getting into the act...maybe it is lucrative? A real goldmime, perhaps?

This one is only $525 or so, and even manages to dispense with the keys.

http://www.roland.com/products/en/MT-90U/

Shall we sing at your place, or mime?

Ian

Talk about hijacking a thread !!

Yes, and a dysfunctional family at that, 124!

But most of us still manage to keep the "fun" in "dysfunctional".

Ian

To get back to on topic...

The thing that confuses me the most is, why audio backing at all? Because of the uneditable nature of them, surely professionally produced SMF's are the FAR more useful option?

I would have thought that recording accurate audio backing tracks would be MUCH more expensive to produce than MIDI tracks. Even if you assume that Yamaha (or whoever) hire great musicians to PLAY the drum and MIDI guitar Parts (and all the keyboards, of course), you don't need a fully equipped studio to do it in. This has GOT to drastically reduce the cost of production. Not to mention the cost of a real horn section, backing singers etc..

Now, after all that, you end up with a product that can easily be edited by the customer, he can easily mute out parts he wants to play himself (or herself!), he can change the sounds if he wants, restructure, basically anything he wants.

So.... WHY?

A Pro musician plays an instrument. This does not include drums, comb and tissue paper, triangle, two sticks on a coffee can etc. (ha, ha). The Pro musician also plays a variety of musical styles and is able to jam on the spot with other musicians, period.

Any other method probably means you are an entertainer or at best an extremely lazy musician and if you are a musician and won't play your instrument. I mean pathetically lazy if you fit this description.

When us dinosaurs are all gone no one will care either way how its done..

Benefits of MIDI files:

MIDI files are petite, often 10K or less. They download from a web page in no time and fit easily on a USB flashdrive. MIDI files are ideal any time you want music to start playing right away.

Limitations of MIDI files:

Because they sound a little different when played on dissimilar sound cards or tone generators, there is no guarantee that those heavenly horns won't sound like tooting trumpets on the next person's (or your next) instrument. Finding and/or making good ones can be difficult for some, if they aren't proficient arranger players, or they can't find (or are able to edit) a suitable style.



Pros of audio files:

They can reproduce exact sounds with CD quality, including all the tiny details like ambient noise, squeaks etc., although Yamaha's Mega and Korg's DNC are gaining ground in that area.


Cons of audio files:

They are large! They can take up 10MB or more per minute of sound. Even with high-speed Internet connections, a simple audio file can take several minutes to download. They are difficult (sometimes impossible) to edit.

Of course, you can use MP3 instead of Wav, but, sometimes the quality of MP3 files makes some recording engineers and performers hesitate, and they are still larger than MIDI files, but, overall they seem to provide a good compromise that most people are happy with.


Just like one's choice of arranger or workstation, or pick of manufacturer, it all comes down to determining and using the tool that best suits one's needs.

Some performers, including a few SZ'ers, use a combination of MIDI and Audio(usually MP3).

Ian

Just use whatever you want THERE ARE NO RULES!

Donnie,
Why don't you change your handle to the "Ancient Wise One." Ha ha!
And by the way, you don't check your PM's anymore?

I think YOUR Not checking reply was sent hours ago to you??? btw it's Donny....not Donnie (fem)

Ian, in all fairness, arrangers are getting SO good that for all practical purposes, they can get acceptably close to the real thing. Secondly, trying to accurately reproduce every squeak and noise from a commercial record can get awfully difficult even for a good musician, and whether you are trying to capture those in audio or MIDI, it can still take quite some time. But, OTOH, the time to do it is considerably less expensive in a MIDI studio!

Next is the fact that Yamaha, making these for their arranger line, they have a well understood and pretty standardized soundset to work with. At least for the modern MOTL and TOTL arrangers, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Probably the likely best course is to make them for the S950, and then scale them up (if possible) on the T4. Probably easier than producing them on the T4 and trying to scale down...

But, don't forget, once produced on these systems, there's nothing to stop Yamaha from selling MP3 recordings of these files to those with less capable keyboards (and including with the SMF for the users that might want both options).

I simply feel that the SLIGHT increase in quality that a full audio recording offers doesn't outweigh the significant disadvantages it forces on you.

Oh dang!! I knew that looked odd. Sorry Donny

Boo no prob buddy Hope you got it all worked out now.

Diki,

Probably for you (or I) Audio Backing Tracks may not make much sense, but, for some performers, including several here on SZ, audio tracks are preferred or, at least, included in their show.

Reasons will vary among those who use them, and there are probably more motives of which I am not aware.

For instance, Yamaha's SA/SA2/Mega Voices and Korg's DNC still do not provide custom Vocal tracks (not just harmonies) for those wanting an exact duplicate of a particular song background...plus, Audio Backing Track playback is no longer limited by an inability to transpose and/or change tempo without affecting the outcome.

Would I use Audio Backing Tracks? No, I don't think I would, but again, there are a number of performers/players on SZ who do...perhaps they can elaborate on the reasons why they use them as opposed to SMF?

If anyone would know, it would be them.

Ian

There might be a market for the SMF, then the SMF done in audio with backing vocals, and maybe even the BV's alone. This might offer the best flexibility (that way, you mute out what you want on the SMF, record it as audio, then mix the BV track in...).

But for me personally, I stay away from audio backing at the moment, because there's no way to put Markers in. That one feature, for SMF's, totally opens up the way you can use them. You are no longer hog-tied to a particular form, and can extend or shorten your song as needed. Until they figure out how to do this with audio backings, I'd rather give them a miss.

Mind you, it might be nice to have some Kurzweil sounds or VSTi's beefing up the backing for sounds they might do a hair better than my G70 (without having to tote them to the gigs), but I can make do for now.

BTW, I don't disagree with people using audio. You are right, in some ways, the end result can be quite similar to SMF's. Probably what gets me the most is COMPLETE audio backing tracks, leaving next to nothing but the melody for the player. That's about where I draw the line! The Lord gave me two hands...!