Welcome back, Mike...

I agree with a lot of what you say (trying to keep Nigel happy, these days!) but one thing I'm not convinced about - I've been using a 128 note arranger for years now. I can't honestly say I have EVER heard notes dropping out. Not in the busiest passages of SMF's, not in the densest of styles, not with quite big layers being played as well.

Now, that's not to say that MAYBE it hasn't happened. But I've got a pretty picky ear (as most here know!) and if I can't ever recall hearing it, well, that's good enough for me!

Personally, I think there are so many, many much more important things to worry about and wait anxiously for them to be improved than polyphony... speed of response, for one. I can layer up all 5 polyphonic Keyboard Parts on my G70, put stereo sounds on to all of them, and play fast repeated chords, and not hear the slightest of flams..! Pretty damn good, IMO. My Kurzweil can't do that, my Triton can't do that, my old G1000 certainly couldn't do that! I'd rather have 128 voices of instant response that 256 that you can't use all of them without it bogging down...

And you are doing such a good job of it

I hear you Diki. The big three are milking 128 for all it's worth and if they see no pressing need to bump it up they most likely won't. I beg to differ though regarding note drop off. You may not be able to distinguish when note(s) drop off in many instances but when it does occur it can diminish a performance. For instance, Jordan Rudess was playing a Kronos a while back and he pushed the polyphony envelope to just below 256 notes. I reckon there must be a polyphony counter on the Kronos. Anyway, I read the article with my own two eyes so I'm assuming it was correct information. If a workstation can push the polyphony envelope that far, just imagine an arranger with all its complex accompaniment functionality and other polyphony consuming features, such as Multipads, voice layerings, and of course the potentially ominous sustain pedal, etc.

Having said all that I just heard a bunch of Korg PA-600 demos and noticed it has 128 polyphony as opposed to Korg's normal 120 spec on most of their other arrangers. The PA-600 sounds amazing and the price is roughly $800 less than Yamaha's PSR-S950. It may be too good to pass up even though it only has 61 keys. If worse comes to worse I can run it through my Fantom G7 or an 88 key controller for piano parts. Hopefully the keybed on the PA-600 will have better action than the Yamaha PSR-S950 has. After playing a few years on a decent action keyboard I don't want to settle for "cheesy" if I can help it. It's like after getting a taste of high-speed internet. You don't want to ever go back to dial-up.

PS: Good to see Diki is behaving himself Nigel. Knock on wood. Just kidding. lol

Another point of view

With hardware boards the more polyphony you have the more the price jumps up, as you need more processing power and memory to accommodate it, therefore manufactures set the polyphony to suit the instrument and market, which with arrangers appears to be 128, workstations on the other hand have to have more due to more advanced layering being available compared to arrangers.

Roland tend to stick to this formula the same as the rest, which why most of their arrangers have 128 however the Ateliers (Organs) have 384 due to the advanced combinations they can have.

The question is?

Would you be prepared to pay a lot extra for your keyboard for something that would not be noticeable to most users? The answer from most players would probably be No, so there is no incentive for manufactures to change the formula.

Bill

Jordan Rudess definitely tries pretty hard to push the envelope in many ways! If you can play as well as Jordan, and the type of synth heavy stuff he does, then PERHAPS you might bump the ceiling. But let's be real... who is doing stuff like his on an arranger?!

As to hitting the ceiling, this problem's audibility varies dramatically with different keyboards. Note stealing algorithms vary from product to product, and can have a big impact. My K2500 only has 48 voices (how things have changed!) but it has incredibly intelligent voice stealing algorithms (and a page where you can SEE the voices being used up) and can often be pushed to the max without actually hearing anything. Short transient samples get reassigned as soon as the sample end is reached, sustaining voices get reassigned in order of level (low level samples layered up can often be dropped in a dense mix with no audibility at all).

But bottom line is, until YOU hear it happening to YOU, not to Jordan Rudess, that's the time to start worrying!

keybplayer

The Ketron AUDYA Keyboard has ...
* 76 Keys (semi weighted)
* 196 Note polyphony

2 great/needed features you seem to be interested in. It might be worth checking out.

Thanks,

Diki: "But bottom line is, until YOU hear it happening to YOU, not to Jordan Rudess, that's the time to start worrying!"

That's my point. It has happened to me and I'm sure to others as well if the truth be known. Roland pushed the envelope with the JP-80 which has 256 note polyphony. Although from my understanding it divides the polyphony in categories so apparently it's not 256 across the entire range of the keyboard. Which actually defeats the purpose of doubling the polyphony from 128 to 256. And of course the JP-80 isn't an arranger.

Regarding arrangers from the Big Three. I honestly don't see it happening any time soon because Japan's economy is basically in a nosedive, and therefore, they'll likely keep milking 128 for a few more years. Ketron, on the other hand, has pushed the envelope but I'm waiting for the next version of the Audya (or whatever it's called) since the current version lacks some features found on lower cost arrangers from the Big Three. Like USB 2.0 for one. Like paltry user memory for another. By the way thanks for your suggestion AJ. Like I said though I'll wait until the next version of the Audya. Hopefully we'll see something soon from Ketron.

All the best, Mike

I seem to remember Kurzweil pulling a neat polyphomy trick by assigning alternate keys to seperate sound engines to double the polyphony, is that right?



The thread seems well and truly hijacked anyway so; The user memeory on the Audya is only for INS/MSP voices and the Audya uses streaming technology. Unlike the other manufacturers it doesn't require user ram to play MP3/Wav files or to store stuff. The reserved factory ram does not require expansion, so there is no option to do so.

Why do you need USB 2.0? (maybe another thread would be good for this one)

Well, some of the issues with voice stealing come down to the player... Sometimes, in a dense mix, do you REALLY need to layer piano, strings, horns, a pad, and an organ?

Or is there a voice already programmed with fewer voices that will serve as well? Part of the art of arranging is NOT stacking everything on top of itself all the time. Remember, even a symphony orchestra only has about 80 players playing, nearly all of whom can only play one note at a time. Now understand that the strings are really only playing a maximum of 10 notes at a time (divisi on 1st & 2nd Violins, Violas, Celli and Dbl Basses) and you actually reduce the notes played drastically under that 80 players.

So yes... you can push the polyphony limits of ANYTHING by doing ridiculous things. But back in the real world, with care and forethought, you can avoid it quite easily, and quite musically.

HI Mike

You seem to have mentioned workstations and synthesizers a number of times, therefore I suspect this is the type of sounds you use on your arranger, and why you are getting the problem, as arrangers are not designed for that intense continuous sound, (The normal note stealing algorithms just don’t work) which is another reason why arrangers are not used in full professional production of music and film. (There only suitable for the first scratchpad)

The only arranger keyboard that has theoretically unlimited polyphony is the Wersi Pegasus Wing where the polyphony is linked to the on-board CPU & Ram, (Which can be upgraded) and which in its current format even if you had everything going (Including the on-board VST) you would still not be anywhere near its polyphony limit.

Bill