After first having experimented at large I can now safely say that the acquisition of a Behringer BCF2000 Midi Controller is an absolute must for anyone with an arranger keyboard with the possible exception of those owing a Tyros or PA3X.

I just finished experimenting on my Yamaha PSR-S750 and already did some on my PA800. The results are absolutely stunning. The subject was first broached here on SZ by Colin, who introduced the (discontinued) Kenton Midi controller with 16 slides which he uses with his PA600.
Unfortunately and for reasons beyond my comprehension Colin did not reply to any of my mails or even request here on the forum to help me out...

Nevertheless what is so spectacular about this Behringer ?
For those owing a Yamaha PSR model, including the latest, you can now access ALL volumes directly even while playing thru the 8 sliders ( big ones !) and the 8 rotary knobs.
The sliders are even motorised which means that if you choose a new registration that you have already made the sliders automatically zoom to those positions , GREAT !!!
And that is not all. You can save these settings on the Behringer as PRESET number one. Then I continued doing the same under preset number two with feeding all the REVERB values of the seperate voices. Again save them and behold:
while playing you simply adjust the reverb of each part.
I have assigned the RHY1 to Phrase 2 ( so all 8 acc. tracks) to the sliders, and the upper voices and lower to the rotary knobs. And it works like magic. Incidentally, there is a LEARNING function on the Behringer which makes programming all that I said dead easy.

With the Korg PA800 the same results. Absolutely amazing and in particular for those on stage with e.g. a Yamaha PSR-S950,or other PSR, a KORG PA500/600 and even for the Korg Micro Arranger this baby does the trick.

it seems to me like a superb addition. They retail round the 200 dollar mark but you find lots of them on EBAY etc.

Truly recommended and worth checking out !!!!!!

regards
JOhn

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BCF2000

Thanks so much for bringing this to my attention John. What a fantastic MIDI control tool.

It is Nigel and I have been puzzled by the lack of interest here. Particularly with all these arrangers without instant control and that includes all MOTL models this is absolutely marvellous. I wish I had owned one when I programmed all my Resources for the Korgies, it would have save me a tremendous amount of time and effort. But also on stage I would imagine it comes in handy, in particular for fine tuning the acc. volumes while playing.

regards
John

The motorised faders are awesome. I am amazed that this is available at such a relatively low cost.

Possibly the lack of interest comes from perhaps the idea that most of the arranger players that DO care much about tweaking their styles and registrations live have already got an arranger with the sliders built in?

You might also consider that probably 90% of all user arranger demos I've heard has the RH voices WAY too loud. Perhaps not as many as might be expected can even tell the difference between a well mixed style or registration and one not so balanced? LOL

BTW, if you switch from the preset for volume to the preset for reverb (or anything else you might have up) do you have to reload the Registration to get the faders to jump to their active points?

BTW, I have a BCF2000 myself, and have used it to control my DAW on and off, but must confess, as well laid out as the G70's sliders are, I have never been tempted to use it for that...

Diki,

As I pointed out it might be of lesser interest to those with a Tyros,PA3X or G70 ( still interesting enough though, see below) but it sure as hell is mighty interesting for anyone with ANY other Yamaha,Korg or Roland keyboard. AS far as the forum goes here I am thinking about folks like Gary, Larry , Deane to mention but a few who will find it a treat. Sure to progam it is fantastic but even as a major volume mixer on stage it is great I think. Do not forget that I have also programmed the uppers volumes under the rotary buttons.
As to your question about resetting the registration, I will test it tonight but I am all but sure you do not have to reactivate the registration.
And as to using it with the G70, I still think it would be handier ( bigger reach of sliders, volumes uppers etc. included in the same batch). Seeing you already have got one it is sure worth trying out other stuff like programming the reverbs, or whatever. If you use the LEARN function (see your manual or download manual) you can program virtually anything there...........

regards
John

P.S.
just checked, you do NOT have to reload or re-select the registatration/performance if you go from the volume-presets to for example the reverb presets.............


John

Interesting John, Thanks for the input. Looks like it would be a handy tool for those that don't have 'on the fly' sliders available. And the ability to save presets is a plus. I may check around for a used one (Diki?)

JohnLong time...not checking in.
Thanks for the info.
What is significant is the fact they are motorized and keep up with current settings....that way when you touch the knob they do not JUMP to old value then go from there which is what non motorized units will do...which is terrible.

Am I correct in the way it is working for you?
If so this is a real winner.
Thanks,
Lee

correct Lee.

greetings,
John

Maybe I'll check it out if I decide to keep the S950. What I really want is a midi foot pedal to control it.
I really don't need to carry another piece of gear around, but I am spoiled with the nice sliders on PA3X.
I didn't expect to like the S950 as much as I do. Love those guitars!
DonM

Actually, the sliders on my G70 are some of the best thought out I have ever seen. For starters, they double as Hammond drawbars, so they are white and brown (BBWWBWBBW), which makes grabbing the right one on stage a snap. A bank of 8 or 9 identical ones can be a lot harder to get the middle ones right (I have a K2500... trust me!).

Secondly, the values do not jump the second you touch the fader. You have to take it THROUGH the preset value (which is shown on the graphic representation on the touch screen) before the value moves. No abrupt changes!

Then a couple of buttons to the left toggle between volume/pan and Chorus/Reverb (including overall amounts of Chorus/Rev on that page) and buttons to the left toggle between Keyboard Parts and Song/Style.

I can get to pretty much anything I need in a hurry close to instantly. I prefer it enormously compered to the Yamaha's inc/dec buttons, and to the Korg's bank of identical faders on the left side (being in the middle allows either hand to control it).

Like I said, I have a BCF2000, and have never felt myself slowed down by any task enough to need to go to the bother of programming and connecting it to the G70. Of course, if you don't have sliders, sure... but, other than the motorized aspect, there are MUCH cheaper fader and knob controllers out there...

Diki,
I could not disagree more ( a friend of mine has had a G70 for years) and your comparison to the use of the Behringer is pretty faulty. Amazing really as you seem to have the Behringer yourself but have only used it for computer stuff.
I think the use of the motorisation on the sliders can also be cancelled, not sure though, but the fact remains that you have more instant knobs and sliders to control every imaginable midi parameter. No way your G70 or for that matter the Tyros or PA3X can do this.

Don,
You should give it a go with the PSR950. And , assuming you have flogged the PA3X you might want to reconsider on a super lightweight sidekick to your Yammie in the form of th KMA.( with my resources, that goes without saying, haha
And with the Midi set up I created you would basically be playing the KMA from the PSR keys, at least all accompaniments.....

regards
John

But that is still not as visual as motorized faders that are already at the parameter position. While it is workable having to wiggle the fader around to find where the current parameter is it is not quite the same as seeing the fader at the correct postion before you move it.

I am sure working with the onboard G70 non motorized faders is fine and avoids carrying an extra piece of hardware but motorized faders are always better than non motorized if the choice is available. Non motorized faders are NEVER a preference, they are simply a cost cutting choice. I can't imagine working in a pro recording studio that didn't have motorized faders on the main mixing board.

John, I respect your right to disagree, but I might point out one thing. Yes, I've only got nine sliders. But the buttons adjacent rapidly (as rapidly as calling up different presets on the BCF, and FAR better labelled!) change their function, so in practical terms, I've got at least nine or more banks of nine sliders to do what I PRACTICALLY need on the gig.

Oh yeah, I forgot... Press and hold any Tone Assign button for the Keyboard Parts (all 6 of them) and the sliders now control most of the main voice programming functions (nine parameters) for that voice.

But yes, I get your point. If there's anything I want to control that isn't already controlled by the sliders, the BCF would give me access to it. But I think the point I was trying to make is, in a live situation, everything I EVER need to get at live IS already assigned to the sliders. The only things that come to mind would be detailed editing of the FX and MFX, and they have their own touch screen pages and data fields run by the data knob. And I can get to everything with a maximum of two button presses.

Bottom line, the BCF is a HUGE piece of kit, completely impractical to have on stage (where you going to put it so either hand could run it?) that does little more than I actually need than the sliders already built in to do...

Everything that you seem to be amazed to be able to do in the OP, my sliders already do. Most of the other stuff is VERY easy to do with the touch screen and data knob (if the sliders don't already do it!). I'm sorry that your friend and yourself never seemed to grasp where everything is on a G70, but I certainly have no problem finding and adjusting anything I want in no time flat.

Nigel, those motorized faders can be NOISY! If you are laying down vocals while you play, and the BCF is close enough to work, the motor noise from a whole bank of faders jumping to a new position is going to get picked up!

I found the BCF marvelous for running Cubase, and have a pretty detailed knowledge of what it can do (it's been running out Eventide Ultra-Harmonizer in the big studio for a while). I have also been running MIDI faderbanks since the early MIDI days (had a real nice non-motorized Peavey one before the Behringer) and used that to get at all the internal MIDI stuff in my RA-90 and Ensoniq's back when keyboards rarely had a bank of assignable sliders!

Then my K2500's slider bank is one of the most advanced things still in existence, being able to gang multiple things up on just one fader and scale them appropriately, etc., calculate checksums for sys-ex, etc..

Trust me, I am FAR from being a noob when it comes to these things. If there was honestly anything that I regularly NEEDED to control on my G70 that the built in controllers didn't make mind-numbingly easy to get to (I got better things to do live than trying to remember which bank# on my faderbox adjusted the LWR2's cutoff!), I'd already be using one.

Motorized is nice, long throw is nice (if you have room for it) but on stage, neither of those things are a big deal, and tracking, those fader motors can be a distraction.

BTW, Nigel, there is a graphic of the fader on the touchscreen, with a bank of little 'LED's' showing the programmed value for the parameter, so you never really have to hunt and peck to find the programmed value. You can SEE it.

Trust me, if I had a PRACTICAL need for the BCF, I'd already be using it!

Thanks Diki for providing your reasons for not wanting to use it in a live situation. I can certainly understand that.

Live use and studio use are certainly two different things.

This looks really cool. For the T4, S950, and S750 there is also the option of hooking the board to an iPad and using an app that has sliders to control different functions. The nice thing about that is that it can rest on the music rest.

Beakybird,

Here you touch upon one of the very few drawbacks of the Behringer. It is rather bulky and weighs 2.5 kilos. I am definitely not putting it on my PSR750 plastic music stand.
But any stoo or bar seat would probably do !!!

regards,
John

I am with Diki....the controls of the G70 are hard to beat....and for stage friendliness , it is the best....Most folks never really get into the G70..if they did they would have found what Diki and I already know....I still believe the G70 OS is the best....and yes I am comparing to the Korg, Yamaha and ketron models..

Sure ..folks that have used Korg, Yamaha , and Ketron for a long time feel the same way...but look at what Diki has mentioned with an open mind...than think how it compares to what you are using..

Yep, the G-70 has some cool features, and that's fine if you prefer the older Roland sound, but many of us have a definite preference for the sound of Yamaha, Korg or Ketron products.

I love Yamaha's smooth, detailed, balanced sound far more than what I hear from other manufacturer's instruments, which is why I have a Tyros4 (which also has very cool features not found on the competition).

Sound is still the deciding factor for serious professionals, sometimes even to the point of adapting to an operating system that may or may not be quite as flexible or user friendly as that on other brand instruments.

Ian

Iagree the g70 does have many great features......not for everyone......makes You wonder why they stopped making the series?.....Yes its heavy.....yes great makeup tools....yes drawbars.....yes keyfeel...built like a tank.....yes needs mp3 & USB......yes... vh is very good.....better then yammys vh2.... But not better then Tc helicon......great sound & styles.....yes fills & intros...........but not for everyone.......remains a classic arranger no doubt........good looking also....!

Just a reminder that I said on the outset that with the possible exception of Tyros, PA3X and G70 this Behringer contraption would be a great asset. I hear you Fran, loud and clear and it is good to know that you and Diki are so satisfied with their Roland , the way Ian swears by his Tyros 4. But for all those without the sliders ( or very few of them) it remains a serious consideration in my view, particularly if you can pick 'em cheap the way I did. ( approx.
100 dollars)

regards
John

Just what are you trying to say, oh Pesce one?

It's most certainly not for you and I, Donny, and in my opinion, I find most of the older Roland TOTL sounds are a bit dated (the piano still holds up pretty good) and, of course, "dated" to me may mean "classic" to someone else...plus, it is far too portly and unwieldy for my needs, especially compared to the newer lighter and sleeker instruments.

It appears to be very use-able (and valuable) mainly to a few Roland devotees on this forum, and that's great...my Uncle Jim always said, "There is a home for every pup."

Ian

Ian, I just feel that the only things outdated are the players themselves,....a good player will sound good on most arranger kbs with decent sounds and styles and a little know how,...
the G70 certainly is equipped to do that for sure,...I think that you would agree that a Stradivarius Violin although very old still sounds amazing in the right hands?...ok then, let's continue to enjoy all that we choose to play. Personal choices with gear is just that "PERSONAL" and unique to the individual that uses it.Roland has and still makes some of the best gear on the planet used worldwide on stages and venues worldwide. Yamaha also has their fan base, but same scenario their gear is NOT for everyone's needs. And so does the other manufacturers like KORG, Ketron, Casio, etc, there are too many variants for everyone to like one thing. That is why I just generalize the whole silly mine is better then yours effect by just saying "Lets Hear What You Got" nuff said! ....that solves the whole issue and is the Bottom line to the silly subject of what is BEST!
What it has means squat!.....
but,... What it Sounds like is what counts!..

Merry Christmas my friends.

Yep...sound is important, and it's number one when I make a choice for an arranger.

In my opinion many of the older Roland TOTL arranger's sounds are dated, especially when Korg and Yamaha are using DNC, Super Articulation and Mega-voices that have set new standards for realism, not to mention Ketron's incredible audio styles.

I'm not saying the older Rolands aren't usable...several users here swear by them, and who am I to argue...to each his own.

They just aren't usable enough for me.

Ian

As I have said many, many times, I am quite well aware that, purely as an arranger, there is much that is better on other keyboards. Even on some newer Roland arrangers...

But my usage of the G70 goes WAY beyond simple auto-accompaniment. I have always said, better ONE tool you know intimately, than two or three you are less familiar with. So, whether I go out as a solo, a duo, or slot into a full band, whether I am performing live or laying tracks down in a studio, I prefer to have ONE tool to cover all the bases. Yes, this means a certain amount of compromise on certain of the aspects (far fewer than you would think), but what you gain is (as this thread demonstrates) intimate knowledge of EVERY aspect of the machine, and a rapidity of thought to action which is the primary need when performing live or laying tracks down in an expensive studio.

So, while, at certain things, I'll admit that some newer arrangers have a slight edge, as the total package, nothing even comes CLOSE. Your bandleader calls out a tune you haven't prepared for, what sounds, layers and splits and effects pops into your mind while he counts it in... by the end of the intro, I can create an entire multi-sound setup, volumes, effects and layout the way I want it. Nothing I have ever used, tried or read about comes even CLOSE!

But don't think I don't get jealous a bit! SA2 voices are wonderful (can't say the same about the drums!). The CS on the Korg is wonderful. Can't say the same about the piano, or the OS! For every advantage, there's a disadvantage that, for my needs, outweighs it. In a live band, 76 is almost mandatory (tough to play a full piano or Rhodes part on a 61, and splits need enough range to cover a couple of sounds through their entire usable range) and speed of creating setups on the fly is critical.

Then get it home, decide to modify a legacy style, a conversion, or SMF, and speed and ease of editing them to sound their best actually makes you look forward to doing it. Again, the G70 (and it's equivalents) has no equal in this regard.

It is a classic... Hard to imagine any of the other manufacturers (with their seemingly different priorities) ever coming out with an equivalent, and looking at Roland's current keyboard direction, it seems unlikely that Roland themselves will ever better it. AT WHAT IT DOES BEST.

Fortunately, for me at least, what it does best is EXACTLY what I need it to do..!

John...are you still wondering why "no action" to your original topic post?

It is very cool that you have found the best tool for the job...as I said earlier, there are a few here who are very happy with the instrument. I feel the same way about my Tyros4 (with expansion pack)...it will, quite likely, be my last major purchase as far as arrangers go.

Do you still have the second G-70?

Ian

Ian, please try to not sidetrack this thread. The G70 was only mentioned in regard to Diki having both the G70 and the BCF2000 controller and why he had decided to use the G70 drawbars over using the BCF2000. It is not a thread about the G70 in general.

If you have any impressions of how the BCF2000 may relate to keyboards you use yourself then please post them.

No, I know nothing about the BCF2000, Nigel, so I will no longer post on this thread.

Thanks,

Ian

I am not trying to discourage you from posting at all. You know you are welcome to post about the useability of onboard sliders on the Yamaha keyboards you use. That was how the discussion on the G70 started in the first place.

I know you aren't, Nigel...thanks for the explanation...much appreciated. I know I tend to "drift" a bit sometimes.

That's one of many reasons why I am keeping my Tyros4...the sliders, though not perfect, are very handy (especially cool for organ drawbar control)...I suspect they will end up, in some form or another, on the mid-range PSR in the not so distant future.

Overall, it is the T4's "sound" (especially the SA/SA2) that made me want it as a "keeper".

My biggest gripe about the Tyros4 and some of the PSR is the location of the effect variation button (it's on the far upper right) and I am pretty well forced to use a foot-switch to change rotary speed when using the organ flutes (drawbar section).

Otherwise, the T4 is basically perfect for my needs.

Ian

Ian,
I know ( as we all do here on SZ) that you and the Tyros 4 are a match made in heaven. And I truly pleased for you as you should know by now. You are forgiven for drifting off, also due to Diki's contribution on the G70 but I am grateful to Nigel for pointing out the subject of this thread. Like him I am looking forward to folks who have actually acquired one and their experiences. This weekend I am going to sort out the drums on the PA800 via the Behringer. Will keep you all posted.

regards,
John

John, I’ve been quite interested in your original post regarding the Behringer BCF2000 and the comments from this forum and the PSR tutorial forum. In particular, I was interested in talk of a tablet App. To control a midi keyboard. I have a pa600 and an ipad 3, so this seems to be the best way to go at the moment. To connect an ipad to a midi keyboard (for those who don’t know), you need a Camera Connection Kit (you don’t have to use apple’s expensive kit because you can buy one for about £4 or about 6 US Dollars. I have a cheapo, Shinntto), and a USB to Midi interface cable. Once again, a cheap one about £2 or £3 will do the trick. From the online Apple store, I bought and downloaded an App called, “Midi Designer Pro”. It costs £13.49 in the UK and $18.99 in the US and Probably about 16 Euros in Holland. If you want to check your Ipad to Midi keyboard connections before buying this App, you can download a free app for ipad called “Midi Monitor”. This app will tell you if your ipad is talking to your midi keyboard okay. Midi Designer Pro appears to control my pa600 with no problems (so far). With this App, you design your own sliders, Knobs and buttons etc, and you can place as many as the available space will allow, with lots of different banks and pages and combinations. Of course, this App will also control your software DAW if you prefer. If anyone is using this App, I’m sure it would be worth hearing about. I’m fairly new to Midi so I have only scratched the surface as yet.
I should add (again, for those who don’t know) that not all USB to Midi interfaces are suitable for connecting an Ipad to a Midi keyboard. I also have a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB interface which is not suitable because of it’s drivers, so a cheap one with no drivers to load, or a dedicated ipad interface is best. Also, there is a lite version of midi designer which is free.
P.S. This post was lost in the early January meltdown, so I’ve reposted it.

Hi Chasbee,

Sounds like a very interesting option to explore, be it with lots of caveats. But if you already have an ipad it might be well worth going down this track.
I would like to add that I bought the Behringer BCF secondhand for 75 euros and that it does not need any software etc. but handles admirably and with real ( and substantial sliders) and knobs. To the best of my knowledge two folks that I know have one on order so I will wait and ask them for their reports later on. Personally I am still puzzled by the seemingly lack of interest in this contraption. For all those in the USA , zzzsounds have them in stock with a 30 day trial period !!!

regards
John

just had this mail from someone in Finland:

Hi John!

I have to thank you for making me aware of the BCF2000.
I got one last month and it is amazing what you can do with
it regarding automation in the setup.

I have attached a document explaining my setup with
the BCF2000 and Korg Pa2XPro and my other instruments.

I hope you like it.


Regards Tom Törnroos