Hi Gary

BFD drums are samples just like the drum samples in an arranger, (Although of a much superior quality) they were also played via Midi just like arranger drums are played by Midi Loops, if you connected a laptop with BFD on-board to an arranger, then you could use the arranger styles to play the BFD drums as if they were part of the arranger.

The point I was making is that until manufactures include these quality samples in their arrangers then they will always sound below par.

Therefore we are comparing apples with apples.

Bill

Hey Fran, I see and hear live drummers nearly every night of the week down here in Marathon. And, depending on the drummer's style, make and type of drums, they all sound a bit different. There's nothing etched in stone when it comes to drums.

Both demos sound nice, Fran, but for me personally, I liked the fullness of the Yamaha sound a lot better. Overall, I felt the Yamaha sounds were much richer, but that's just MY opinion. You say potatoes and I say potaatos - if you know what I mean. And, no, it's not MY quote.

Cheers,

Gary

Here is the video from John's link in the original post above:



Maybe it's me, but I thought the drums were pretty damn good, especially beginning around the 8:30 mark. Good as Korg, or Frans demo video's? Perhaps not, but certainly not bad as some have suggested, and certainly good enough for my taste. It's all about taste right? I heard the drums were improved and to me this proves it. But then I never had a major problem with Yamaha drums.

The video probably would have been even better had he recorded using the keyboard audio out to external in, rather than a cam with built in mic.

In any case, the guitars are outstanding, along with organ, and accordion, if you're into those sounds. The guy claims the 950 is a big upgrade from the 900, and he's definitively a good player who shows happiness with his new toy, and that's what it's all about.

Thanks for the link John, hope you don't mind I embedded the video

The problem with the Yamaha's is STILL that it is a closed audio environment. Unlike Ketron's, where with skill (or a good 3rd party supplier!) you CAN create your own drum audio backings, Yamaha's system is not only closed to only Yamaha provided content, but also completely impractical to use in a live situation - RAM is VERY limited, and loading in a different set takes time and a complete re-boot of the keyboard.

Until this is addressed, it is still a gimmick at best. Only a tiny fraction of the styles will be able to use the live drums, and the anemic ROM drum kits will be all that is left. Which, of course, begs the question... are you going to WANT to show them up for how naff they are by using the audio styles much?

You need to pressure Yamaha into opening this system up. Easy import of .Wav files into the style sections, and rapid loading of new audio styles.

Imagine, if you will... say you got BFD2, or the Superior Drums libraries. You could save each of your current Yamaha style's Drum Parts as MIDI. Then run these MIDI files through BFD2 and render .Wav files of each section (including the Intro/Endings). You would then be able to re-import the FAR better audio versions of these styles (tweaked to YOUR taste) into your arranger. Voila! ALL your styles, not just a tiny handful, would be radically improved.

You would also have the ability to mix in modern 'loop' or breakbeat audio onto these files (or if Yamaha would open up the usefulness of the Multi-Pad Audio feature to allow a .Wav loop instead of them being a one-shot as they currently are) and have the ultimate modern 'drums and a loop' sound at your fingertips. 3rd party style creators could do much of this work for you if you don't feel up to the task.

But all of this is a pipe-dream unless Yamaha open up the system to the user. And, unless considerable pressure is exerted on Yamaha, I simply don't see this happening. If you want this, it is up to YOU...

Diki, Has any arranger keyboard manufacturer really done this? I haven't really dug into the OS of other manufacturers arranger keyboards as deep as I have with Yamaha, but I have owned and played many of the other brands. To me, there doesn't seem to be that much of a significant difference in the overall drum kit sounds. Granted, some seem to be louder and more harsh or sharp, but generally they tend to sound pretty much the same, even when tuned with the EQs, etc...

Gary

Well, basically, you can do this with any arranger with a sampler... So Tyros, Ketron and the one most people do do this with, the Korg PA series. The process is a bit different, as those need to time slice the drums and trigger them with a different MIDI file as they don't time-stretch the entire loop, but it can be done.

The main thing I notice with Yamaha's drum sounds compared to Korg and Roland (who I am most familiar with) is that the drums of Roland and Korg are sampled with a hair of room sound around them. In fact, in the Korg, you can actually vary this depending on taste. I also think that they use more drums with more velocity layers on them, so the timbre itself changes as the sound gets louder. This tends to make a more dynamic sound, particularly when mated to Roland's ability to offset the velocities of selected parts depending on how strongly YOU are playing.

Yamaha, OTOH, still seem mated to that bone dry drum sound (barring the newer kits) from the 80's, and use the onboard reverb to put 'space' around the drums. Unfortunately, tight drum rooms seem the hardest reverb sound to emulate, and you STILL need a larger reverb to open certain sounds out. But if you are miking a real kit, yes, you put close mikes on all the drums. But you also have overheads, which will pick up the room a bit, AND you would have room mikes well away from the kit to pick up the room sound.

This is what I think Yamaha miss on their kits, and what adds to the liveness and realism of Roland and Korg, in particular.

The fact that Yamaha are touting that their audio loop drum parts ARE recorded with room sound included obviously shows that they consider it a plus, but until they update all their ROM kits to include it, they trail the rest, as far as I am concerned. And, as I have said elsewhere, if Yamaha made a serious attempt to update their drum KITS to be more live and dynamic, the whole need for audio loops to rescue their drum sound in styles would go away.

Fix the KITS, not add marginally useful, barely developed audio styles, Yamaha. THAT is where the problem gets fixed once and for all...